Author Topic: Assisted Dying.  (Read 17043 times)

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2016, 14:46:19 »
A copy of that, and a copy of the Advanced Care Directive...which actually annoys me when someone with an ACP "C" (comfort care only) gets sent to the ER by PCH staff when they're starting a downward spiral - they should be staying put.  For some reason, the staff get spooked by dying people actually dying in their "own" home as it were ::).

MM

Perhaps that goes to what I was suggesting with respect to the "oaths" that the professionals take.

Is there an acceptance of the concept of "a good death"? 
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2016, 15:33:10 »
Or, sometimes they don't  want paramedics to resuscitate. The family hands you a DNR order signed by the doctor.

But, in Ontario, when called to respond to a scene where a person has lost vital signs, and in the absence of a Do Not Resuscitate Confirmation Form (DNRCF), even if a DNR Order is presented to attending paramedics, under regulations of the MOHTLC, paramedics must begin resuscitative measures.

What if a person had 'Do Not Resuscitate' tattooed on their chest where the paddle goes?

The problem I have with the form, is that it's only good if there is someone there to present it or you are at the place of it being held. If I'm at a restaurant, by myself, they'll attempt to revive against my wishes because I don't have a piece of paper. However, if it's tattooed on me, that was obviously my choice and it should be accepted as my wishes.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 15:43:01 by recceguy »
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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2016, 13:36:36 »
As to the suggestion of an "Executioner", would you prefer Terminator or End of Life Guide?

The main issues IMHO are:
- Past generations are dead,
- Will you or your generation live for ever,
- Should we have a voice in determining how and when we die?  Some people smoke, others participate in dangerous sports/endeavors, do we deem these actions illegal.

What if the granter of wishes for assisting you in dying was your spiritual guide (Priest, Minister, Imam, Rabbi etc.) and for those without one, then it is their immediate family that needs to concede.

I would prefer to have an informed discussion as was the case with my father in which the immediate family gathered at his bedside, he was kept "medication-induced" comfortable until he took his last breath, rather than being told to go get some rest and being called a few hours later that Mom had passed alone.

Is there a moral or ethical difference between assisted dying, suicide, and dying by refusing care in the case of terminal cancer patients?

A key point in the discussion is that under assisted dying laws in other countries such as The Netherlands (also referred to as Euthanasia and Assisted suicide), it is illegal; however, the medical practitioner is not punishable as long as specific guidelines are followed.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 13:43:27 by Simian Turner »
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2016, 13:44:33 »
I am agnostic on what the Executioner is called so long as it is not some feel good euphemism like "Spiritual Guide".

I was unaware that the Dutch law still consider the act illegal but allowed it to be justifiable.  In my view that goes a long way to resolving some of my internal debates.

WRT the mode of egress - that is a matter for the individual to decide.  Whether they choose to involve their family or their god is up to them. 

I don't think that anybody should be forced to kill somebody against their wishes.  (and before anybody chirps up with Soldiers! - they volunteer for the job knowing what the job requirements are).
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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2016, 14:01:31 »
WRT the mode of egress - that is a matter for the individual to decide. 

I prefer not  to go the DIY route for certain jobs, because I might botch it. Would rather hire a pro to handle it instead.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 16:36:53 by mariomike »

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2016, 15:54:54 »
I prefer not  to go the DIY for certain jobs, because I might botch it. Would rather hire a pro to handle it instead.

Me too.  But I don't want somebody doing the job because they have been coerced either.
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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2016, 16:13:15 »
I suppose one could become a Suicide Tourist and fly to Switzerland on a one-way ticket,

Zurich voters keep 'suicide tourism' alive
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/05/15/zurich-voters-suicide-tourism-alive.html
Voters in Zurich have overwhelmingly rejected calls to ban assisted suicide or to outlaw the practice for nonresidents

Or do it on the cheap at a pet shop in Mexico,

Euthanasia tourists snap up pet shop drug in Mexico
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-euthanasia-idUSN0329945820080603?sp=true
Elderly foreign tourists are tapping Mexican pet shops for a drug used by veterinarians to put cats and dogs to sleep that has become the sedative of choice for euthanasia campaigners.

Clutching photos of the bottled drug to overcome a lack of Spanish, they have maps sketched by euthanasia activists to locate back-street pet shops and veterinary supply stores near the U.S. border. There they can buy a bottle for $35 to $50, enough for one suicide, no questions asked.

Nine myths about euthanasia in the Netherlands

Euthanasia is really easy is in the Netherlands

Elderly Dutch people prefer to go to hospitals abroad for fear of being murdered by doctors in hospitals in the Netherlands

Children can use euthanasia to get rid of their elderly parents in order to get their hands on the inheritance

A Dutch clinic is to open where you can end your life

One telephone call and a mobile team turns up to end your life

Dutch people go around with wristbands saying they don’t want to be euthanized

Ten percent of Dutch deaths are down to euthanasia and many people are forced into it

Everyone can come to the Netherlands in order to have their life terminated

Parents can get rid of their handicapped child
https://www.rnw.org/archive/nine-myths-about-euthanasia-netherlands
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 21:12:41 by mariomike »

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2016, 19:55:09 »
Sep 17, 2016

Belgian minor granted euthanasia for first time ever
http://www.680news.com/2016/09/17/belgian-minor-granted-euthanasia-for-first-time-ever/
Belgium is the only country that allows minors of any age assistance in dying, De Gucht said. In Holland, the lower age limit for euthanasia is 12 years.

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2017, 10:20:56 »
What if a person had 'Do Not Resuscitate' tattooed on their chest where the paddle goes?

Canadians vacationing in Florida may find this of interest,

1 Nov., 2017

Man has 'Do Not Resuscitate' tattooed on his chest. Doctors at the University of Miami Hospital Emergency Room honored it.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1713344#.Wh84KQwAH0s.twitter
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 13:52:57 by mariomike »

Offline commander-cb

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2017, 19:40:41 »
When my dad died a couple years ago
He had strokes at " the end " .he was not doing well. And likely was done for.
But he was a tough guy a I -suspect- the nurses did everybody a favour and kinda tipped the scales
Application began approx 2010
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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2017, 15:24:21 »
We used to joke about what we would do if we ever saw a DNR tattoo, but I never saw one.

Dec. 4, 2017
Tattooed wish for withholding treatment not good enough, doctors say
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/tattooed-wish-withholding-treatment-not-good-enough-doctors-191018739.html

See also,

DNR Order 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=67123.0

Offline expwor

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2017, 18:10:59 »
Just a couple quick thoughts from the civie side of the street.  Recently I had a Stroke, well mini Stroke, well more accurately a TIA (transient ischemic attack) for which thank God I made a full recovery.  Anyhow one of the first things I did was get a Medic Alert.  Couldn't for someone in the Canadian Forces who wants a DNR get a Medic Alert. There is a section on the on line form for "Special Needs" and the person could enter DNR. And the person could attach the Medic Alert medallion to the chain holding their identity disk. On top of that there would be a wallet card issued by Medic Alert for medical personal to look at
And second thing about what to call someone who ends a patient's life who has a DNR order.  Instead of executioner, how about executor or DNR Executor
Anyhow posted for whatever it's worth

Tom

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2017, 18:40:29 »
The Do Not Resuscitate Confirmation Form ( attached ) is the only order ( Ontario ) paramedics can accept.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 12:08:42 by mariomike »

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2017, 15:02:10 »
Aid-In-Dying Process Not as Graceful as Imagined ...By The Phrase 'Not As Graceful' They Mean It Is A Prolonged Gruesome Death.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/colorado/articles/2017-12-23/aid-in-dying-process-not-as-graceful-as-couple-imagined

At some point someone will take the dose, it will not go as expected or panic will set in and EMS will be called. One Heck of a job to go to.

Offline whiskey601

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2018, 12:26:58 »
WRT the post above that there are people in NL that are being euthanized against their will  - what is the hard, verifiable and reliable proof of this? It seems to me if this is the case, the Ministry of Justice is not enforcing the law.
That being said, the practice  of assisted suicide (different and distinct from euthanasia) is a reality whose time has come in Canada, and the courts have confirmed this, there is no going back.

Re: DNR, why not a secure NFC medallion that authenticates the identity of a person who  can choose to wear it (or not). In Ontario, the e Healthcare records system should be able to handle this.

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2018, 13:42:58 »
WRT the post above that there are people in NL that are being euthanized against their will  - what is the hard, verifiable and reliable proof of this?

The post above is about Colorado. If you quote the post, we can answer your question.


Re: DNR, why not a secure NFC medallion that authenticates the identity of a person who  can choose to wear it (or not). In Ontario, the e Healthcare records system should be able to handle this.

Interesting idea. This is the law in Ontario if paramedics arrive on scene,

"In Ontario, paramedics can only follow DNR Orders in the presence of a form issued by the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long Term Care. Called “Do Not Resuscitate Confirmation Form” (Ontario Publication Number 4519-45 (07/10)). This document is the only order paramedics can accept as a true medical directive—one that allows them to NOT initiate resuscitative measures when a person loses vital signs outside of a healthcare facility. It is important to note that the DNR Confirmation Form is not a DNR order—but rather confirms the existence of a duly filled and signed DNR order.

When called to respond to a scene where a person has lost vital signs, and in the absence of a confirmation form (DNRCF), even if a DNR Order is presented to attending paramedics, under regulations of the MOHTLC, paramedics must begin resuscitative measures.

With an expectation from family members that paramedics will follow the final wishes of their loved ones, the absence of the DNRCF can result in a massive case of misunderstanding and a lot of pain and stress for family members."
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/ehs/docs/ehs_training_blltn108_en.pdf
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 22:34:48 by mariomike »

Offline pbi

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2018, 17:39:01 »
This subject is close to me as in the last few years I have dealt with the prolonged dying of three people I loved. Two cases played out within a year each, but were very painful and distressing. The third took several years, but subjected the person to an "existence" rather than a "life": something I know very clearly that person had said, over and over again, they would never want. Death, when it finally came, was a release.

My wife and I are both Christians (me being perhaps rather a struggling and backsliding one, but, anyway...): she is a Catholic and I am Anglican. Neither of us regard suicide lightly. We have discussed this issue at length, but we have come to share the same views:

-your life is your life: when an adult of sound mind decides they don't want to go on, we should respect that. And, I specifically mean "an adult of sound mind"-not a minor or a person who is mentally unfit;

-people need to plan for their deaths (most people don't want to do this but, believe me, it is one of the kindest things you can do for your survivors);

-you must make sure you appoint a Power of Attorney for Care, in writing, while you are still of sound mind and body. This allows the PoA to make important decisions. Without PoA you actually have very little or no legal status (a surprising thing I learned);

-you should tell your family what you want. Everybody dies: get over it, and sort it out with your family;

-no doctor should be forced against their belief to participate in assisted death. (And, some suggestions above to the contrary, I don't think any jurisdiction in Canada actually forces this on medical professionals);

-we should be very careful to avoid laws that are susceptible to such loose interpretation that we can easily pull the plug on Uncle Bill just to get our hands on the cash.

I'm not familiar with the situation in NL but it seems to me their law is too permissive and thus open to abuse. But that is only my opinion.
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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2018, 12:18:33 »
Sadly we have a friend dying of ALS who is likely to take this option in the next 3-4 months based on his rate of decline. Terrible things happen to nice people  :'(

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2018, 12:28:10 »
I'm not familiar with the situation in NL but it seems to me their law is too permissive and thus open to abuse. But that is only my opinion.

For reference to the discussion,

Euthanasia in the Netherlands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_the_Netherlands

Offline pbi

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2018, 17:08:25 »
For reference to the discussion,

Euthanasia in the Netherlands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_the_Netherlands
Now that I've read the provisions, I agree with all of them except the one allowing minors to select euthanasia. I'm not comfortable with that bit, although I note the requirement for parental consent.

Quote
...the patient's suffering is unbearable with no prospect of improvement
the patient's request for euthanasia must be voluntary and persist over time (the request cannot be granted when under the influence of others, psychological illness or drugs)
the patient must be fully aware of his/her condition, prospects, and options
there must be consultation with at least one other independent doctor who needs to confirm the conditions mentioned above
the death must be carried out in a medically appropriate fashion by the doctor or patient, and the doctor must be present
the patient is at least 12 years old (patients between 12 and 16 years of age require the consent of their parents)
The doctor must also report the cause of death to the municipal coroner in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Burial and Cremation Act. A regional review committee assesses whether a case of termination of life on request or assisted suicide complies with the due care criteria. Depending on its findings, the case will either be closed or, if the conditions are not met, brought to the attention of the Public Prosecutor. Finally, the legislation offers an explicit recognition of the validity of a written declaration of will of the patient regarding euthanasia (a "euthanasia directive"). Such declarations can be used when a patient is in a coma or otherwise unable to state if they wish to be euthanized.

Euthanasia remains a criminal offense in cases not meeting the law's specific conditions, with the exception of several situations that are not subject to the restrictions of the law at all, because they are not considered euthanasia but normal medical practice:

stopping or not starting a medically useless (futile) treatment
stopping or not starting a treatment at the patient's request
speeding up death as a side-effect of treatment necessary for alleviating serious suffering
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2018, 18:29:07 »
Thinking of getting a DNR tattoo?

QUOTE

March 27, 2018

Beware: Hospitals think ‘do not resuscitate’ means you don’t want to live

When you’re admitted to a hospital, you’re routinely asked if you want to sign a Do Not Resuscitate order. Don’t assume it’ll apply only in extreme circumstances.

New research shows having those three letters — DNR — on your chart could put you on course to getting less medical and nursing care throughout your stay. Fewer MRIs and CT scans, fewer medications, even fewer bedside visits from doctors, according to the Journal of Patient Safety. A DNR could cost you your life.

They misconstrue DNR as Dying Not Recovering.

They even hesitate to put DNR patients in the ICU when they need intensive care.

No wonder patients with DNRs have far worse recovery rates than patients with identical conditions and no DNRs, new findings in Critical Care indicate. Women are especially affected, data show.

END QUOTE

More at the link.
https://nypost.com/2018/03/27/beware-hospitals-think-do-not-resuscitate-means-you-dont-want-to-live/

See also,

DNR Order 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,67123.0/nowap.html

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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2018, 15:27:19 »
Users would first take an online test to determine whether they were sane. If they cleared the test, they would be sent an access code, valid for 24 hours. They would then get into the capsule, close the door & press a button to have the nitrogen pipe in.

15 April, 2018
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/04/15/a-euthanasia-expert-just-unveiled-his-suicide-machine-at-an-amsterdam-funeral-fair/?utm_term=.5997ef2fd012


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Re: Assisted Dying.
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2018, 17:10:36 »
How about this?  I've always liked it.


https://youtu.be/EbmQxZkSswI