Author Topic: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay  (Read 92395 times)

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #325 on: June 09, 2017, 09:48:41 »
Looks like a Tory- DUP government.DUP is a fan of Brexit. May should not have called for an election, she had 3 more years before the next election.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #326 on: June 09, 2017, 11:08:32 »
Looks like a Tory- DUP government.DUP is a fan of Brexit. May should not have called for an election, she had 3 more years before the next election.

That was then.  This is now. 

The only thing you can say for sure is it is time to pull your investments in pollsters, pundits and prognosticators.

The gods laugh.
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Offline FJAG

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #327 on: June 09, 2017, 16:55:19 »
Had to chuckle. Read an article in one of the UK papers that I follow that said that the DUP's basic political platform is "basically just the Bible, with fortnightly bin collections".

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #328 on: June 09, 2017, 20:18:28 »
At least they wouldn't be contesting the original text....
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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #329 on: June 09, 2017, 21:31:46 »
I'm enjoying the photos of Lord Buckethead running against May in her riding.  And Elmo, too.

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #330 on: June 09, 2017, 22:04:11 »
Had to chuckle. Read an article in one of the UK papers that I follow that said that the DUP's basic political platform is "basically just the Bible, with fortnightly bin collections".

 :cheers:

And yet it still sounds more sensible than the NDP's LEAP manifesto  [:D

Offline FJAG

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #331 on: June 09, 2017, 23:02:08 »
And yet it still sounds more sensible than the NDP's LEAP manifesto  [:D

True that although a bit apple and oranges.  ;D

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #332 on: June 10, 2017, 11:13:57 »
Both require faith.
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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #333 on: June 10, 2017, 19:35:25 »
Had to chuckle. Read an article in one of the UK papers that I follow that said that the DUP's basic political platform is "basically just the Bible, with fortnightly bin collections".
That, and wanting to keep Northern Ireland British. 

With them being the king makers, I wonder how easy this guy's job's going to be?  Especially with a Northern Ireland-Ireland border that's used to being a lot more easy to get through lately than it used to be during The Troubles.  Not to mention that whole flag fracas.

Interesting times, indeed ...
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #334 on: July 24, 2017, 17:22:56 »
The EU makes the case against itself in trying to discredit the UK's negotiating team. It seems lack of self awareness permeates much of the globalist Political and Bureaucratic classes:

https://geopoliticalfutures.com/eu-authoritarianism-complexity/

Quote
The EU: Authoritarianism Through Complexity
By George Friedman

In recent weeks, EU negotiators have claimed that the British negotiators of Brexit are not sufficiently sophisticated to understand the complex issues being dealt with, and that, in essence, it is frustrating for EU negotiators to deal with unskilled negotiators. I have found that dealing with unskilled negotiators has frequently created opportunities for me, but apparently the EU wants to have a better team to play against.

A great deal of this is, of course, political maneuvering. The EU desperately wants to avoid a British withdrawal from the bloc. By making this charge, it hopes to discredit the British negotiating team and sow distrust between the British public and the negotiators. Implicit in what is being said is that the British team is going to fail to get a good deal for Britain, and that therefore the risks of Brexit for Britain are pyramided. Why the EU wouldn’t keep this fact secret, and negotiate a superb deal for itself, is a mystery, but the posture is almost that the EU wants to save the British from their own stupidity.

It’s not a bad maneuver, but it unravels at a certain point. The British team consists of well-educated and experienced civil servants. In claiming that this team is not up to the task of understanding the complexities of EU processes and regulations, the EU has made the strongest case possible against itself. If these people can’t readily grasp the principles binding Britain to the EU, then how can mere citizens understand them? And if the principles are beyond the grasp of the public, how can the public trust the institutions? We are not dealing here with the complex rules that allow France to violate rules on deficits but on the fundamental principles of the European Union and the rights and obligations – political, economic and moral – of citizens. If the EU operating system is too complex to be grasped by British negotiators, then who can grasp it?

The EU’s answer to this is that the Maastricht treaty, a long and complex document, can best be grasped by experts, particularly by those experts who make their living by being Maastricht treaty experts. These experts and the complex political entities that manage them don’t think they have done a bad job managing the European Union. In spite of the nearly decadelong economic catastrophe in Southern Europe, they are content with their work. In their minds, the fault generally lies with Southern Europe, not the EU; the upheaval in Europe triggered by EU-imposed immigration rules had to do with racist citizens, not the EU’s ineptness; and Brexit had to do with the inability of the British public to understand the benefits of the EU, not the fact that the benefits were unclear and the rules incomprehensible. The institutionalized self-satisfaction of the EU apparatus creates a mindset in which the member publics must live up to the EU’s expectations rather than the other way around.

The EU has become an authoritarian regime insisting that it is the defender of liberal democracy. There are many ways to strip people and governments of their self-determination. The way the EU has chosen is to create institutions whose mode of operation is opaque and whose authority cannot be easily understood. Under those circumstances, the claim to undefined authority exercised in an opaque manner becomes de facto authoritarianism – an authoritarianism built on complexity. It is a complexity so powerful that the British negotiating team is deemed to be unable to grasp the rules.

In essence, the British position seems simple. The U.K. wants to be part of a European free trade zone, modified again like it has been in the past. It wants to determine its own fate rather than be governed by the EU. If there is to be aid to member states, then it will be voted on by the Parliament. In other words, they do not want to disrupt trade. Nor do they want to be governed by a system that doesn’t work very well.

So long as the British negotiating team plays by EU rules, it will lose. The myriad points of darkness that make up the vast complexity of the EU structure cannot be negotiated. In part, they exist so that they cannot be understood. If the British negotiators start with the elegant institutional and moral principles that frame their unwritten constitution, they can present the terms under which they will work with the EU. Not to worry – the Germans won’t stop trading with the British. They can’t stop, and the British will have the upper hand if they employ British aplomb and remember that excluding Britain from the free trade zone is not an option for the EU. From there, it is simple.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #335 on: November 25, 2017, 18:15:59 »
I hear the voice of Humphrey -   


Quote
Secret document FCO 30/1048 kept truth about EU from British for 30 years

A SECRET document, which remained locked away for 30 years, advised the British Government to COVER-UP the realities of EU membership so that by the time the public realised what was happening it would be too late.

By LARA DEAUVILLE
PUBLISHED: 16:01, Fri, Nov 24, 2017 | UPDATED: 17:43, Fri, Nov 24, 2017
   
Almost all of the shocking predictions – from the loss of British sovereignty, to monetary union and the over-arching powers of European courts – have come true.

But damningly for Tory Prime Minister Edward Heath, and all those who kept quiet about the findings in the early 70s, the document, known as FCO30/1048, was locked away under Official Secrets Act rules for almost five decades.

The classified paper, dated April 1971, suggested the Government should keep the British public in the dark about what EEC membership means predicting that it would take 30 years for voters to realise what was happening by which time it would be too late to leave.

That last detail was the only thing the disgraceful paper – prepared for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) – got wrong.

This 1971 document shows exactly what the plan was

The unknown author – a senior civil servant – correctly predicted the then European Economic Community (the EEC effectively became the EU in 1993) was headed for economic, monetary and fiscal union, with a common foreign and defence policy, which would constitute the greatest surrender of Britain’s national sovereignty since 1066.

He went on to say “Community law” would take precedence over our own courts and that ever more power would pass away from Parliament to the bureaucratic system centred in Brussels.

The author even accurately asserts that the increased role of Brussels in the lives of the British people would lead to a “popular feeling of alienation from Government”.

But shockingly politicians were advised “not to exacerbate public concern by attributing unpopular measures… to the remote and unmanageable workings of the Community”.

Prime Minister Edward Heath kept quiet about the findings in the early 70s

They were told to preserve the impression that the British Government was still calling the shots rather than an unelected body of foreign politicians – and that the ruse would last “for this century at least” – by which time Britain would be so completely chained to Brussels it would be impossible to leave.

Document FCO30/1048, which has now been declassified under the 30-year rule, still shocks and angers Brexiteers.

Annabelle Sanderson, a Brexit expert and former advisor to Nigel Farage said: “Despite all the claims from politicians of many parties that the EU was not about becoming a central state this 1971 document shows that is exactly what the plan was.

“Arch Remoaners from Labour, Lib Dems and the Tories need to check this out and ask themselves why they are MPs if they don’t actually want Westminster to be in charge of this country.

“We voted for Brexit what needs to happen is a proper clean break from Brussels so we can once again become a sovereign nation with money being spent in this country on services we need and have Parliament and courts making and ruling on the laws.”

Document FCO30/1048 still shocks and angers Brexiteers

The writer and journalist Christopher Booker, one of the founders of the satirical magazine Private Eye, said: “Here was a civil servant advising that our politicians should connive in concealing what Heath was letting us in for, not least in hiding the extent to which Britain would no longer be a democratic country but one essentially governed by unelected and unaccountable officials.

“One way to create an illusion that this system was still democratic, this anonymous mandarin suggested, would be to give people the chance to vote for new representatives at European, regional and local levels.

“A few years later, we saw the creation of an elected European Parliament – as we see today a craze for introducing elected mayors, as meaningless local figureheads.”

The pro-Europe Sir Edward Heath was leader of the Conservative Party from 1965 to 1975.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/882881/Brexit-EU-secret-document-truth-British-public
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #336 on: November 25, 2017, 18:19:00 »
And this -

Quote
'No EU-UK deal? It is not the end of the world', says WTO chief

 Liam Halligan
25 NOVEMBER 2017 • 9:43PM

Roberto Azevedo is not your typical Brazilian. Quietly spoken, and instinctively cautious, the director general of the World Trade Organisation is a career diplomat to his well-manicured fingertips. While a highly effective communicator – fluent in four languages – he belies the national stereotype for flair and flamboyance.

Azevedo, though, is a major figure on the global political stage – by far and away the most important trade diplomat on earth. As such, he’s been taking a keen interest in, and has some interesting thoughts on, the UK’s Article 50 negotiations with the EU.

.... If Britain fails to strike a free trade agreement (FTA) with the EU ahead of March 2019, when we’re scheduled to leave, then UK-EU trade reverts to WTO rules. While some claim this would be a disaster, not least parliamentarians determined to frustrate Brexit, Azevedo disagrees.

“About half of the UK’s trade is already on WTO terms – with the US, China and several large emerging nations where the EU doesn’t have trade agreements,” he says. “So it’s not the end of the world if the UK trades under WTO rules with the EU.”

"If you don’t have a fully functioning FTA with the EU, there could be rigidities and costs – but it’s not like trade between the UK and EU is going to stop. There will be an impact, but I suppose it is perfectly manageable"

Acknowledging that an FTA would be best, with WTO rules involving reciprocal UK-EU tariffs, Azevedo still gainsays the gloom-mongers. “If you don’t have a fully functioning FTA with the EU, there could be rigidities and costs – but it’s not like trade between the UK and EU is going to stop. There will be an impact, but I suppose it is perfectly manageable.”

He points out that to maintain current levels of access in nations where the EU has already struck FTAs, the UK will need to negotiate new agreements with such countries after Brexit. But won’t the fact that EU agreements already exist with such countries help the UK to reach such deals? “Trade deals are always complex,” says Azevedo. “But it may be helpful as some of the trade harmonisation is already there – that could act as a shortcut.”

While the EU has cut around 50 FTAs, most are with very small countries. Despite 60 years of trying, Brussels has failed to strike deals with the US, China, Brazil, India and almost all other large economies. Why is this? “Trade deals are difficult but there is an additional complicating factor for the EU, which is agriculture,” says Azevedo. “Once you start negotiating with a big agricultural exporter, they want market access – and, for the EU, that’s a sensitive sector, both politically and economically, a sector that makes itself heard.”

After Brexit, Britain can be more flexible in its approach and quicker to react within the WTO, as you don’t have to coordinate with all the other members of the EU
As the global centre of economic gravity shifts east, multilateral institutions are having to adapt. While Azevedo’s own appointment, in 2013, reflected this shifting balance of power, does he feel there’s further to go? “The WTO was updated with the entry of China in 2001, and Russia in 2012 – two very large and important economies,” he said. “That represents an update – and these members are very active, so the WTO is changing.”

And what difference will the UK make at the WTO, acting as an independent trading nation for the first time since 1973? “I hope Britain will help co-operation among nations – which has always been your traditional approach,” says Azevedo. “The UK has many qualified professionals – and generally liberal views on trade.”

After Brexit, Britain can be “more flexible in its approach and quicker to react within the WTO, as you don’t have to coordinate with all the other members of the EU”, observes Azevedo. “You will lose the weight of the EU as a market, but the UK is by no standards a minor economy or a minor player in the multilateral system.”

As our conversation draws to a close, Azevedo smiles for the first time, revealing a big toothy grin. “I think Britain has an opportunity,” he says, “a chance to contribute in a way that is consistent with the quality of your professionals and the size and importance of your economy.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/11/25/no-eu-uk-deal-not-end-world-says-head-wto/
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Offline FJAG

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #337 on: November 25, 2017, 21:34:43 »
The latest cost of quitting Brussels? British farmers learn of sprouts crisis because of a shortage of seasonal workers from Europe  ;D

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5117679/The-latest-cost-quitting-Brussels-sprouts-crisis.html

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #338 on: December 02, 2017, 10:40:48 »
A good example of the quality of most Euro MEPs and their thought processes:

EU should 'force UK to give us English language after Brexit', former Italian PM says

The European Union should adopt English as one of its most prominent languages after Brexit because the move would "force" the UK to "give to us one of the very best products of Britain", a former Italian prime minister has said.
Mario Monti, who is also a former EU commissioner, said Europeans "should find ways to upgrade the use of English" in official bodies after Britain's departure from the EU.

The move would serve "two purposes" - forcibly taking one of Britain's "very best products", and increasing the European Union's competitiveness with the UK on the world stage.

The comments prompted raised eyebrows among Eurosceptic Tory MPs, although Peter Bone, a member of the Commons Brexit committee said: "I thank the former prime minister for recognising that English is the language of business and the international language.

"I think that's supposed to be a compliment."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/25/eu-should-force-uk-give-us-english-language-brexit-former-italian/
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #339 on: January 30, 2018, 01:10:01 »
The English Channel: the World's Largest Tank Trap :)


German ambassador: second world war image of Britain has fed Euroscepticism

Exclusive: Peter Ammon says some Brexiters were motivated by a sense of national identity built around UK standing alone

“I spoke to many of the Brexiteers, and many of them said they wanted to preserve a British identity and this was being lost in a thick soup of other identities. Obviously every state is defined by its history, and some define themselves by what their father did in the war, and it gives them great personal pride.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/29/german-ambassador-peter-ammon-second-world-war-image-of-britain-has-fed-euroscepticism
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #340 on: June 16, 2018, 11:31:00 »
Foreign involvement in internal affairs....


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/06/15/tory-rebels-leading-britain-towards-brexit-name/

Quote
... are the Tory rebels part of a wider plan to stop Brexit?

While Mr Grieve insists he does not want to stop Brexit, he likes to keep company with those who do.

On Wednesday Mr Grieve attended a meeting at the European Commission’s London headquarters in Smith Square (which was, ironically, Margaret Thatcher’s Conservative HQ) convened by avowed opponents of Brexit.

Among the groups represented were Best For Britain, the anti-Brexit group founded by Hungarian-American investor Mr Soros, known as “the man who broke the Bank of England” after he bet against the pound during the 1992 Black Wednesday crisis.

The group has been courting hundreds of MPs that it believes it can convert to its cause of a second referendum. Each one is shown electoral data that “proves” they could increase support in their constituency by backing a second referendum or a “soft” Brexit.

Among the MPs targeted are Conservatives in constituencies with a high number of Labour Remainers: by appealing to those voters, the theory goes, they could scoop up thousands more votes at the next election. Presentations are being held three times a week attended by MPs individually or in groups.

Why this matters is that if Best For Britain succeeds in “turning” enough MPs (and it has a target of recruiting 100), Mrs May could be powerless to stop amendments to forthcoming Brexit-related bills that would achieve what Mr Grieve wants.

And there are many more facets to the well-funded campaign. As MPs geared up to vote on Tuesday, the Financial Times carried a full-page advert urging MPs to defy the Tory whip.

It reproduced the November front page of The Daily Telegraph that described 15 rebels as “The Brexit Mutineers” but replaced the headline with “The Brexit Heroes?”

The advert was paid for by the US-based civil rights campaign group Avaaz, which was founded by two other groups that have together received £1.3 million from Mr Soros.

Nor is Best For Britain the only anti-Brexit group out there. It works in collaboration with eight other groups that all moved onto the same floor of Millbank Tower in Westminster in March, including European Movement UK, Britain For Europe, Scientists for EU, Healthier IN the EU, InFacts, Our Future Our Choice and For Our Future’s Sake.

Once mocked as a disparate group of zealots getting in each other’s way, they are now disciplined, drilled and co-ordinated.

Also sharing the building’s first floor is Open Britain, which includes the People’s Vote campaign and which has organised next Saturday’s march.

It is funded by Roland Rudd, the chairman and founder of the PR company Finsbury who has been dubbed the “Godfather of Remain” and is a close friend of former Labour Cabinet minister Lord Mandelson.

Open Britain has close contact with MPs from all parties, with Mr Grieve, Anna Soubry and the former education minister Nicky Morgan among its former supporters.


Friends and associates .... https://www.americanprogress.org/series/global-progress/view/
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 11:39:14 by Chris Pook »
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #341 on: June 16, 2018, 11:41:45 »
I guess foreign interference is ok, as long as it is US Progressive causes doing the interfering...

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #342 on: June 20, 2018, 20:42:40 »
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/977225/Brexit-news-UK-EU-House-of-Lords-Theresa-May-European-Union-Withdrawal-Bill

The enclosed video clip is classic in its demonstration of British Parliamentary Democracy at its finest.  Sir Humphrey would be pleased.  (As would R.D. Laing for that matter).

For the record, it means that Theresa May continues the battle.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #343 on: July 09, 2018, 18:17:28 »
The British people voted to leave the EU, but PM May seems to be trying to ignore that.In fact several ministers are leaving her government in opposition.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #344 on: July 18, 2018, 19:16:38 »
As a Brexiteer at heart I feel some stake in this discussion.

At the same time, as I have said upthread, I am immensely proud of the democratic display my mother country is putting on.

It is not efficient.  It is profoundly disconcerting, both to the Brits and the rest of the international community.  But it is considerably better than the alternatives .....

Here we see people within parties, Labour and Tory, voicing and voting their principles in the House.  We see debates in cabinet.  We see cabinet ministers quitting so as to be free to voice opposition to the government.  We see ministers and shadow ministers taking to their preferred newspapers to offer their opinions whole and entire without editorializing by reporters.  We see pundits discussing those opinions.  We see groups forming to oppose peacefully using the legitimate means at their disposal.  We see protests in the public square, petitions to parliament and appeals to the courts. 

What we don't see is blood in the streets....

For the bureaucrats of the world it must be terribly annoying to have all these people interfering with their jobs and making things more difficult for them.... but, for me, it is what democracy looks like.

Precious few trained seals in evidence at Westminster.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #345 on: July 18, 2018, 20:07:59 »
Too bad the purveyors of our own Westminister application can't do the same.
Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #346 on: August 06, 2018, 18:41:34 »
Much has been made of Britain's poor decision with respect to Brexit and how the position outside the EU is so inherently bad that Britain must have a deal other than one based on the WTO.

There are contrary opinions - such as this one -

But the Society opinion is that a deal must be made or Britain will suffer.

William Hague, remainer, former leader of the Conservatives and one time Foreign Secretary, and one suspects strong proponent of May's Chequers Proposal, has today penned a piece in the Telegraph suggesting that Macron needs to move and make a deal with Britain or else

Quote
Within Britain, many of us who have advocated pragmatic solutions to Brexit would switch to calling for this country to maximise its competitive advantage against the rest of Europe in every way possible – open the freeports, make financial regulation more attractive for those locating in the UK and halt payments to the EU budget.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/06/france-key-credible-brexit-deal-macrons-interest-make-happen/

Curiously that is the very argument that the Brexiteers have been making all along - that Britain, freed of the EU regulatory regime, has the tools to remake itself again, prosperously.

Hague's submission seems to me to indicate that the Brexiteers are correct in thinking that even British supporters of the EU, the Remainers, are willing to knee-cap Britain in order to maintain and support the EU regardless of economic costs to Britain.

Pretty hard to get a good deal when the people doing the dealing don't want to be dealing in the first place.

Staff Edit: Removed link, as it lead to user's desktop...
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 19:04:04 by PuckChaser »
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #347 on: August 10, 2018, 11:43:51 »
Offered without comment - and quoted in its entirety

Quote
Why is it that so many leading Brexiteers studied history?
Greg Hall
 
 
 
The history boys: Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson and Arron Banks (Getty)
Greg Hall

11 August 2018

9:00 AM


What do Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Dominic Cummings all have in common? They are Brexiteers, of course. Yet little is it known that they all studied history or classics at university. Add to this list John Redwood, Bill Cash, Daniel Hannan, Owen Paterson and Douglas Carswell — some of the most influential Eurosceptic MPs from the past 30 years. Michael Gove may have studied English literature, but as education secretary he sought to establish a ‘narrative of British progress’ in the history curriculum. Boris has written a biography of Winston Churchill and Nick Timothy has written a biography of Joseph Chamberlain. Even two of the so-called ‘Bad Boys of Brexit’, Arron Banks and Nigel Farage, are self-proclaimed history buffs. After claiming that Ancient Rome was ‘destroyed’ by immigration, Banks was called out by classicist Mary Beard, to which he retorted: ‘I studied Roman history extensively — you don’t have a monopoly on history!’ Nigel Farage is a regular visitor to the battlefields and cemeteries of Europe.

Why is this significant? Much has been made by the liberal left of the association between Brexit and nostalgia, whether it be the dream of returning to an imperial past or the restoration of parliamentary sovereignty. Take Back Control. And the implication of nostalgia is not a positive one; after all, when the term was first coined it referred to a medical condition. Many opponents of Brexit would argue that Brexiteers do have a medical condition — Anna Soubry has already said that all the banging on about Europe is ‘not particularly good for their [the Brexiteers’] mental health’. It may be nostalgia for some, but for others, such as the Question Time audience member who rebuffed Matt Forde last May, Brexit is about ‘the future not the past’.

And if nostalgia is unhelpful, then so too is amnesia. In the UK our past is not comprehensively taught — hence Gove’s reforms; and when it is, it is often the subject of derision. I am not suggesting that anyone who studied history or has a similar degree is a Brexiteer — far from it in fact. More than 300 prominent historians signed a letter to the Guardian before the referendum encouraging Britain to Remain. Yet it is no coincidence that many of the leading Brexiteers have. Whereas the Declaration of Independence is gospel in America, in the UK only a history graduate like Jacob Rees-Mogg could describe the White Paper agreed at Chequers as ‘the greatest vassalage since King John paid homage to Philip II at Le Goulet in 1200’. The pollsters at Vote Leave decided that ‘Take Back Control’ was the most effective slogan, but what it communicates is the doctrine which the History Boys continue to espouse: parliamentary sovereignty. If you know your British history, then you’ll known that this is not an abstract idea but something which parliamentarians have wrestled for since, well, not long after Le Goulet.

In comparison, the leading opponents of Brexit such as Ken Clarke QC, Keir Starmer QC, Tony Blair, Chuka Umunna, Anna Soubry and Matthew Parris all read law or jurisprudence at university. To be sure, they have appealed to the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty, but only since the referendum, and in order to soften the withdrawal process. Harold Wilson and Ted Heath, the prime ministers who brought the UK into the European Economic Community, studied the now-infamous philosophy, politics and economics. So too did Michael Heseltine, David Cameron, Peter Mandelson, the Miliband brothers, Yvette Cooper and Will Straw, the director of the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign. Does this point to conspiracy? No. But it is an interesting pattern to highlight. The old ruling class — politicians such as Herbert Asquith, Harold Macmillan and Boris — studied the classics. The new ruling class — the ‘experts’ — have studied vocational degrees like law and PPE. Whereas our rulers were once versed in the past, they are now versed in technocracy.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule and I am not suggesting that those who oppose Brexit have not studied history or are not interested in it (Dominic Grieve and George Osborne, for instance, read history). But it does not seem too unreasonable to presume that many of the influential opponents of Brexit in politics and the media do so because of their education. If you studied modules on European law or international political economy at university, rather than, say, the Glorious Revolution, it is not surprising that you will come to prioritise the global over the national, the present over the past. Undoubtedly the lawyers ‘understand the importance of statute’, as Soubry put it, but do they understand the importance of history? Magna Carta and what it stands for becomes one of many legal cases to memorise, not a founding national document.

Where does this leave Brexit? I’ll leave the detail to Theresa May, but I suspect that the outcome she achieves will not end this Thirty Years War between our representatives. This is a war which began, and which may have to be settled, on campus. To be sure, such a divergence of outlook among political representatives is not new. Following the French Revolution, Edmund Burke reflected on the fact that the Third Estate, the body of men which came to dominate the legislature in 1789, was composed mainly of lawyers. Fuelled by Enlightenment theories and self-interest, they overturned the ancien régime.

In our case, forget the Bad Boys of Brexit: 23 June 2016 was the work of the History Boys, and its destiny lies with whichever group of graduates holds the balance of power.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/why-is-it-that-so-many-leading-brexiteers-studied-history/


Edit: And thanks to the moderators for catching my security problem on the preceding post.  Cheers.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #348 on: August 22, 2018, 11:02:41 »
So, the big argument in Britain is whether or not it needs a deal with the EU or it "crashes out" without a deal.

The population at large seems a lot more sanguine about the no-deal/WTO/FTA prospects than does the "establishment".  The "establishment" is at one with its legal advice.

Which brings us to this briefing from the Law Society:

Quote
10.40am update: Legal sector growth could halve by 2025 without trade deal

Growth in the legal sector could halve by 2025 if the UK leaves the EU without a trade deal, the Law Society has warned.

The professional body has estimated the secotr would grow by 2.2 percent each year between 2019 and 2025 if the UK pursued a soft Brexit, remaining inside the customs union and single market.

But this growth could halve to 1.1 percent if the UK exits the bloc without a trade deal.


The figures, compiled by Thomson Reuters, showed that opting for a no deal over a soft Brexit would wipe almost £3bn from the turnover of the sector.

The Law Society also predicted that by 2025 there could be up to 5,000 few people employed in the legal sector if the UK agrees a Canada-style free trade agreement with the EU.

But this could rise to 10,000 if the UK leaves the EU under World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1006709/brexit-latest-news-no-deal-brexit-michel-barnier-emergency-talks-northern-ireland

Cynics might suspect some special pleading on the part of Law Society support for the EU and Free Trade Agreements.

It sounds as if businesses are faced with competing costs.  They can either pay the costs of filling out paperwork to comply with tariffs, or, they can pay the costs of hiring lawyers to fill out paperwork to avoid tariffs.

Apparently the Law Society has its preferences.

I suppose we should be glad that we have lawyers negotiating trade deals.


Edit to add link
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 12:18:52 by Chris Pook »
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