Author Topic: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual  (Read 12834 times)

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Online Remius

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #100 on: April 18, 2018, 09:22:06 »
The appropriate reference is The RCN Dress Manual (BRCN 108), Art. 2.01 (Dresses and Occasions).  This lists orders of Dress as follows:

Blue Dress:

Day       1  Blue Ceremonial Dress (Jacket and tie with medals)
             2  Not Allocated
             3  Blue Service Dress (jacket and tie with ribbons)
             4  Not allocated
             5  Battle Dress

Evening  6  Not allocated
             7  Mess Dress
             8  Mess Undress
             9  Not allocated

White Dress

Day       11  White Ceremonial Dress (White tunic with medals)
             12  Not Allocated
             13  White Service Dress (White tunic with ribbons)
             14  Not allocated
             15  Not Allocated

Evening  16  Not allocated
             17  White Mess Dress
             18  White Mess Undress
             19  Tropical Mess Undress

Khaki Dress:

Day       21  Not Allocated
             22  Not Allocated
             23  Khaki Service Dress (khaki jacket and tie with ribbons)
             24  Khaki Service Dress (negative jacket)
             25  Khaki Tropical Dress (shorts and open neck shirt)

Included in this article is a table that in addition to describing all of these orders of dress (in greater detail than I've given here), it also shows on what occasions they are to be worn.  Each number within the groups correspond with the equivalent number in the other groups (i.e. No 11 is worn for the same sorts of occasions as No 1 - parades, funerals, etc).  The only differing factor is the climate.  For example, one would wear No1 for Remembrance Day in Canada, but No 13 for Remembrance Day ceremonies in the tropics.  Officers would wear No 3 on a daily basis in Canada in the winter, and No 23 in the summer.

In summary, in RCN 1.0 (and as I think it should be now), the white tunic was equivalent to the blue jacket and only the climate would determine which one was worn.

Thanks for that.  So what that is seems to be taken from a summary someone made like a wiki.  I was unable to find the source document that likely has more details if the drill and ceremonial chapter (which I did find) is any indication.

It also seems that this dress reg was only in place from 1951-1960, 9 years.  And even at that, I'm not sure it was widely implemented.  Not sure what came after and not too sure a case could be made based on that to kit everyone out based on history.  Plus it seems that prior to 1951 only CPOs wore them for enlisted types.

You would likely have a better chance and making bell bottom or gaiters and the neck scarf the ceremonial dress since historically that would make more sense if you are looking for  1B dress.  But again, 1B is not normally paid for using public funds. 


on another note: If you scroll through the pics here you'll see the Stadacona band in full whites on parade.  Likely paid for by grant and not at members' expense. 

http://www.fpimages.com/canada-day-royal-nova-scotia-international-tattoo-parade/2827/
Optio

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2018, 10:23:58 »
Thanks for that.  So what that is seems to be taken from a summary someone made like a wiki.  I was unable to find the source document that likely has more details if the drill and ceremonial chapter (which I did find) is any indication.

It also seems that this dress reg was only in place from 1951-1960, 9 years.  And even at that, I'm not sure it was widely implemented.  Not sure what came after and not too sure a case could be made based on that to kit everyone out based on history.  Plus it seems that prior to 1951 only CPOs wore them for enlisted types.

You would likely have a better chance and making bell bottom or gaiters and the neck scarf the ceremonial dress since historically that would make more sense if you are looking for  1B dress.  But again, 1B is not normally paid for using public funds. 


on another note: If you scroll through the pics here you'll see the Stadacona band in full whites on parade.  Likely paid for by grant and not at members' expense. 

http://www.fpimages.com/canada-day-royal-nova-scotia-international-tattoo-parade/2827/

Good morning Remius.

Just a few historical points to complete the picture:

Before 1951, the "dress manual" of the RCN was simply the RN dress manual. We didn't have our own, nor our own system of uniforms.

The change was made in 1951 and an actual RCN pub adopted because of the introduction to the RCN of the "parallel" rank structure of the Army. You may (or may not  ;)) recall that prior to 1951, the ratings system in the RCN followed the RN, and therefore, we had only five rates: OD, AB, LS, PO and CPO. All but the CPO wore the square rig, which is why they were the only one getting the white jacket. The other ratings, however still had a ceremonial Blues square rig - with jumper - and a tropical white square rig also with white jumper.

After 1951 - and until unification (don't know where you get that the BRCN 108 ceased to be in effect in 1960 - It may not have been "updated" because the Navy knew unification was coming - but it remained in full force as the dress manual until the new CF Dress Manual for the green machine came in force and everyone's uniform was replaced with CF ones) the actual first - and only ever - independent RCN dress manual came into force.

The rank structure of the RCN, as I mentioned, was modified in 1951 to mimic that of the Army - which led to the introduction of three new "rates": the appointment to Master Seaman was added and the PO and CPO rates were "doubled" to have a first and second class each - thus bringing the whole "warrants" spread into the Navy. At that point, the PO2 retained the square rig, while the PO1 and above (equivalent to the Army warrants) switched to the Fore-and-aft dress. At that point, all PO1 and above got the white jacket, while the PO2 and below continued to have a white square rig.

One of the nice innovations by the RCN with its 1951 Dress Manual (and which made many, many RN types very jealous of Canadians) was the introduction of the Khaki Service and tropical dress, for ordinary day wear in those summer, warm but not necessarily tropical situations. It was an idea imported from the US and was a great morale booster. At the same time, and of the same reason, the denim dungarees were introduced as the shipboard working dress for the ratings wearing the square rigs.

End of the supplementary history lesson.  :nod:

P.S.: Since some in these pages take umbrage whenever we poor seamen confuse the extent of Junior NCO's, NCO's and Warrants designation (not that you guys ever mix the Navy ranks - no), then be aware that, in the Navy, we didn't have "enlisted" men - we had "Ratings".

Second P.S.: Yes, the Naval bands (not just the Stadaconna one) all have the full dress HCW issued at taxpayer's expense under the Band grants. Nice, but I don't think it is relevant to any RCN wide use's discussion. 

Offline Pusser

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2018, 10:45:01 »

It also seems that this dress reg was only in place from 1951-1960, 9 years.  And even at that, I'm not sure it was widely implemented.  Not sure what came after and not too sure a case could be made based on that to kit everyone out based on history.  Plus it seems that prior to 1951 only CPOs wore them for enlisted types.


I really think you misunderstand my argument.  You seem to think that we want a "ceremonial" uniform in the same context as an Army regiment's scarlet uniform.  Not so.  For one thing, the Navy's equivalent to that was a frock coat and bicorne hat, which was discontinued at the beginning of WWII and never reintroduced.  Even in the RN, it is restricted to Royalty and Flag Officers today (although the bicorne seems to have disappeared forever).  The use of the word "ceremonial" in the BRCN I quoted is in reference to uniforms that would be equivalent to today's 1 and 1A.  I'm not sure why the proposers chose to try and make HCW 1B, but the man thrust of the proposal was to get the HCW provided at public expense and you have to call it something.  Perhaps "Summer 1 and 1A" would be better? 

The real point here is that there is a need for a summer weight uniform equivalent to 1 and 1A and by naval custom (both in the RCN and virtually every other navy in the world) it should be white.

OGBD  nicely sums up the evolution of uniforms in RCN 1.0.  I would, however, point out that the MCpl/MS appointment came much later (i.e. with actual unification).  It was not part of the initial rationalization of ranks across the RCN, Army and RCAF that saw the creation of two classes each of PO and CPO.  It was a surprise to everyone!
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Online Remius

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2018, 11:05:57 »
Well this is my point.  What you are asking isn't what was proposed to the dress committee. They asked for it to be 1B and funded. 

So now you can see why it was turned down.  The request wasn't for what you just stated above. No army conspiracy, no prejudice against the Navy.  Likely a bad presentation that wasn't communicated properly or properly justified.

Maybe they should look at how SOF made their request or how some unit will be reverting or converting to various coloured berets. 
Optio

Offline MCG

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2018, 12:45:55 »
Maybe they should look at how ... some unit will be reverting or converting to various coloured berets. 
You mean by misrepresenting facts in such a way that the blue Army general service beret that was used for about 9 years (50's to 60's) was present to have been a distinctive branch headdress with a long history?  I think that might be exactly the example the RCN looked at.  Maybe we can all stop living in the past.

Online Remius

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #105 on: April 18, 2018, 13:16:29 »
You mean by misrepresenting facts in such a way that the blue Army general service beret that was used for about 9 years (50's to 60's) was present to have been a distinctive branch headdress with a long history?  I think that might be exactly the example the RCN looked at.  Maybe we can all stop living in the past.

Maybe yes.  I'm not aware of what justification they used.  I don't know. 

The fact still remains that what the Navy asked for is not what Pusser or OBGD are proposing.  It wasn't supported for whatever reason. 
Optio

Offline Pre-flight

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #106 on: April 18, 2018, 14:12:46 »
I think you're still talking about mess kits...if so; Pg 2-1-8 of CFP 265, Para 55

WEAR OF MESS DRESS

55.Acquisition

a. All Regular Force officers are required to be in possession of mess dress No. 2, *which shall be procured at individual expense. Newly-commissioned officers are required to obtain this order of dress not later than six months after commissioning.

b. Mess dress No. 2 is optional for Regular Force non-commissioned members and all members of the Reserve Force. Acquisition is the responsibility of the individual.

*not saying I agree with the policy personally; just pointing out what it is IAW 265.  I've wondered a few times what would happen if someone didn't who fell under 55(a) and their CofC tried to charge them under the CSD.

Leads me to a question;  do Band personnel pay for their 'mess kit-like' uniforms?   Ref:  http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/news-template-standard.page?doc=rcaf-band-twin-talents/j56y6b79

Agreed. When I commissioned over I bought my mess dress. As an NCO it started becoming less and less "optional" as my career progressed, which I resisted since I had a element change in mind at the time.

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #107 on: April 18, 2018, 15:35:19 »
Quote
a. All Regular Force officers are required to be in possession of mess dress No. 2, *which shall be procured at individual expense. Newly-commissioned officers are required to obtain this order of dress not later than six months after commissioning.

I've never understood the reasoning behind that rule.  Six months after commissioning, there's a good chance that most people aren't finished their selection trade course yet and if they don't pass, they could potentially be transferred to another element.  Why drop $ on Mess Kit if you're not sure you'll even be qualified in your trade? 

I can understand if it was after MOS qualification, etc. 
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #108 on: April 18, 2018, 16:13:41 »
I've never understood the reasoning behind that rule.  Six months after commissioning, there's a good chance that most people aren't finished their selection trade course yet and if they don't pass, they could potentially be transferred to another element.  Why drop $ on Mess Kit if you're not sure you'll even be qualified in your trade? 

I can understand if it was after MOS qualification, etc.

Like a lot of things the focus of this directive does not take into account all possible routes to commissioning.  However, for the stereotypical subaltern (ROTP and OCTP) of years past, it probably fit in well with their initial employment.  Most ROTP'ers had completed a lot of their occupational training between academic years and the time frame from graduation (when they were commissioned) to MOC qualification was usually less than 6 months.  In the days of yore, OCTP'ers (like me) did not get commissioned until we had completed Phase 4.  For the army types the requirement to get mess dress (and sword for those MOCs that required same) was usually after arriving at your first posting following phase training.
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Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #109 on: April 18, 2018, 18:37:05 »
I've never understood the reasoning behind that rule.  Six months after commissioning, there's a good chance that most people aren't finished their selection trade course yet and if they don't pass, they could potentially be transferred to another element.  Why drop $ on Mess Kit if you're not sure you'll even be qualified in your trade? 

I can understand if it was after MOS qualification, etc.

It's a rule that certainly doesn't make much sense for Reg Force DEO officers, who indeed may be a long way from occupational qualification six months after commissioning, and what Mess Dress is a BMOQ qualified Infantry or Armour DEO 2Lt required to purchase? He doesn't even know his Regiment yet.

Arguably, the rule is there so that DEO Junior Officers can disobey it and get used to the fact that some rules simply don't apply to them and can safely be ignored. This is to catch them up to ROTP Junior Officers, who, based on recent publicity, already have years of experience in this.

Of course, there is a strong argument that rules like the 6-month rule for Mess Dress that are routinely ignored when they don't make sense cheapen the impact of all orders. Why put something into writing that isn't and can't be enforced? As for myself, I personally routinely violated CFAO 26-4 when I was on course in the UK -- it is mandatory that dog tags be worn 24/7 by Reg Force personnel when they are outside North America, and I didn't do that. Was I correct? Or was I on a slippery slope to anarchy?

Personally, I think our entire set of orders and directives could do with a healthy scrubbing -- we've been tinkering too long, maybe it's time for a full rewrite.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 18:44:29 by Ostrozac »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #110 on: April 18, 2018, 21:06:57 »
I question the whole concept of being able to order someone to buy something, required for the service, with their own funds personally. 
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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #111 on: April 18, 2018, 21:09:25 »
I question the whole concept of being able to order someone to buy something, required for the service, with their own funds personally.

That's the military factor in your pay. Much like being ordered to attend and pay for a mess dinner. I'm sure officers get enough money, they can cover the mess kit cost. I did it as a MCpl with 2 kids and a car payment, its not that expensive.

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #112 on: April 18, 2018, 22:43:56 »
That's the military factor in your pay. Much like being ordered to attend and pay for a mess dinner. I'm sure officers get enough money, they can cover the mess kit cost. I did it as a MCpl with 2 kids and a car payment, its not that expensive.

I don't think so.  Military factor is to account for the hardship related to a military life, not having to buy a mess kit or mess diner.

Online HULK_011

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #113 on: April 18, 2018, 22:50:07 »
The Military Factor is defined as:

It is important to note that the TC analyses, as applied to the CAF, also provide latitude to determine the dollar value of the unique aspects of CAF service. The most obvious example is the Military Factor, which values the major characteristics of military service. Although the unique aspects of military service such as Code of Service Discipline, separation from family and posting turbulence are not easily quantified, the Military Factor was originally valued at 4% of salary for all non-commissioned members and general service officers. As of April 1, 2016, the Military Factor stands at 8.7% for non-commissioned members and for general service officers. These recent increases were in recognition of a higher operational tempo and resulting increases in the incidence of separation, and a new component (Personal Limitations and Liabilities), which further recognizes the implications inherent in the military system of unlimited liability. Another less obvious example is the fact that CAF members are not eligible for overtime. To adjust for this in the TC analyses, values of 6% of salary for non-commissioned members and 4% of salary for general service officers are used.

Comparability, therefore, is not a case of making one rate of pay equal to another. Instead, a comparability shortfall is the amount of increase to CAF pay that is needed to equalize the bottom line (dollars per hour worked) between the CAF and the PS values, but only after considering all salary and applicable benefits including unique CAF conditions of service.

Link is here:http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/pay-overview.page

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 06:07:36 »
I question the whole concept of being able to order someone to buy something, required for the service, with their own funds personally.

I agree. 

I don’t see how someone can be ordered to buy required kit.  Perhaps back when we were getting $17 a month in clothing upkeep, but not now.

I keep hearing about young kids in their poor financial decisions, but yet we are ordering these same young kids (officers) to purchase mess kit.  How often does the Navy hold a mess dinner?  My 12 years in the fleet, I attended 1 (PLQ).  Now that I’m in the RCAF I attend at least 1 a year.  Mess kit can be expensive and ordering someone to pay for it is wrong, especially since we rarely wear it.

It’s the equivalent of ordering someone to pay for ammo. 

I’d love to see this order changed and soon, like within the next 8 months.

As for being ordered to pay and attend, yes it’s a parade, however I have heard of folks attending and NOT eating to avoid the cost. 


Online mariomike

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #115 on: Yesterday at 07:57:07 »
As for being ordered to pay and attend, yes it’s a parade, however I have heard of folks attending and NOT eating to avoid the cost.

For reference to the discussion,

The "Paying For a Mess Dinner" Merged Thread
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=41585.0
11 pages.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #116 on: Yesterday at 08:09:18 »
I knew a guy who refused to buy a mess kit.  He was a Lt in 3 RCR, I think he was ordered multiple times to buy one and wouldn't do it. 

He was a former stock broker who joined the military when he was older, drove a nicer car than the CO and had more money than anyone I've ever met in the CAF.  He certainly knew how to poke buttons and while he pissed off all the Field Officers, his shenanigans kept all the Subalterns secretly entertained.

He ended up getting out and going to do his MA at Harvard once he realized the CAF wasn't doing it for his excitement level.  He was a fun guy to drink with and never took himself too seriously. 

Smart guy but the CAF was def not for him or his personality.  Some of you may even know him  ;D
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:13:00 by Humphrey Bogart »

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #117 on: Yesterday at 09:38:33 »
Arguably, the rule is there so that DEO Junior Officers can disobey it and get used to the fact that some rules simply don't apply to them and can safely be ignored. This is to catch them up to ROTP Junior Officers, who, based on recent publicity, already have years of experience in this.

 :rofl:
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #118 on: Yesterday at 09:43:43 »
...Lt in 3 RCR.... Smart guy...  Some of you may even know him  ;D
Smart, Lt, RCR?  Nope.    :pop:
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #119 on: Yesterday at 09:58:34 »
Smart, Lt, RCR?  Nope.    :pop:

 :rofl:

Well in a couple of weeks I won't be wearing the 8 pointed star anymore so I won't even try a retort! 


Offline Brihard

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #120 on: Yesterday at 10:27:31 »
Smart, Lt, RCR?  Nope.    :pop:

I know him. He's out. He's smart.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #121 on: Yesterday at 10:49:48 »
I question the whole concept of being able to order someone to buy something, required for the service, with their own funds personally.

Prior to unification, officers had to buy all of their uniforms, not just mess dress.  One story goes (I'm not sure of its veracity) that the only reason officers began to be issued uniforms was because either they weren't buying their green ones fast enough or that there was an assumption that they simply wouldn't.

The Australians issue all uniforms, including mess dress.  The Brits only recently just started issuing uniforms to officers and several of the officers I've talked to about it aren't that thrilled (they don't like the cut or quality).

Not that is makes a huge difference in our discussion, but years ago, a friend of mine was commissioned into the Royal Corps of Transport and bought the appropriate mess dress.  Shortly thereafter, the RCT was amalgamated with several other corps to become the Royal Logistic Corps, with a newly designed mess dress that he was again required to buy.  There was no grandfather clause, so every officer in the new corps was out about £1000 to replace a perfectly good set of clothes.  In Canada at least, we tend to grandfather things like this.  I knew one AdminO who continued to wear old RCAF pattern mess dress well into the 1990s.
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Offline ArmyRick

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #122 on: Yesterday at 11:24:17 »
Crap! I worked with [removed] at Meaford. This is a shocker. Unacceptable that he would do this.
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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #123 on: Yesterday at 14:40:12 »
:rofl:

Well in a couple of weeks I won't be wearing the 8 pointed star anymore so I won't even try a retort!

Star? I thought it was a Shuriken ;)
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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #124 on: Yesterday at 18:23:20 »
In Canada at least, we tend to grandfather things like this.  I knew one AdminO who continued to wear old RCAF pattern mess dress well into the 1990s.

I was a little miffed when I was told that I could have kept on wearing my RCN Mess Kit when I OT'd, after having bought the RCAF Mess Kit not a month before. 
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