Author Topic: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]  (Read 18495 times)

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Offline MilEME09

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Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« on: September 08, 2016, 02:19:38 »
Did a search and couldn't find the thread I thought existed, but in an effort to fix the recruitment issue it looks like the CF is exploring the idea of conditional enrollment. The way it was explained to me was if they get the checks in the box but say for example are waiting on their enhanced reliability clearance and such, we get them in the door, kitted and parading while the system sorts it all out. I'm told they are hoping to cut wait times down to less the two months by doing this from paperwork to unit. Great in theory
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Offline CBH99

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2016, 03:39:58 »
That would make a lot of sense, and definitely help fix the recruiting system.

I don't know what the situation is like these days, but back when I was in, we had guys leave for their deployment before some of their clearances came back.

As a reservist, isn't it just a clean criminal record back/nothing pending before the courts?  Should be pretty quick and easy to get.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2016, 08:22:11 »

As a reservist, isn't it just a clean criminal record back/nothing pending before the courts?  Should be pretty quick and easy to get.

There is no difference between the PRes and Reg F recruiting criteria. 
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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2016, 10:23:49 »
ERC is a criminal background check and reference call. I don't want people parading around me who haven't passed it, and it's outsourced now, shortening the timelines. We already do this with trades that require TS or Secret, they do what training they can while paperwork catches up. In no way should we lower our security standards to below ERC.

What else do you want to lower? Medical? Buddy has a huge heart condition he doesn't disclose, and drops dead on a parade night prior to being deemed med unfit. Now we're paying survivor pensions and SDB for someone who should have been screened out.

You don't fix the recruiting system by lowering an already low bar, you fix the beaurucratic mess that slows the process down.

Offline Remius

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2016, 10:51:32 »
Conditional enrollments are not a new thing.  They've been done before.  It's risk management.

ERCs normally don't take up a lot of time.  If someone has a clean ERC but happened to teach in Korea for a year after university, they might need a PRE-SEC.  That can take a considerable amount of time sometimes years.  So why not enroll while we wait for the PRE SEC to clear.  ERC is clean, no other indicators or what not, so hire.

Same with medical.  PAs generally know who is clean or not but they still need the MO to sign off.  Why not flag those guys, enroll while they wait for the MO to sign off on a broken leg they had when they were 6 years old.

It isn't about a blanket conditional enrollments for everyone but there are many cases where it could and should happen.

It isn't hard and we don't need to make excuses.  Just do it.

Optio

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2016, 12:45:35 »
There's a reason people need a pre-sec, circumventing that is not a valid COA. Medicals should be approved by higher medical authority, it's how long it takes is the problem. We're already recruiting people who are unfit physically and with no mental health screening, making it easier just kicks the problem to units, who can't afford to spend the time on the admin burden.

Offline DAA

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2016, 14:09:40 »
Conditional enrollments are not a new thing.  They've been done before.  It's risk management.
ERCs normally don't take up a lot of time.  If someone has a clean ERC but happened to teach in Korea for a year after university, they might need a PRE-SEC.  That can take a considerable amount of time sometimes years.  So why not enroll while we wait for the PRE SEC to clear.  ERC is clean, no other indicators or what not, so hire.
Same with medical.  PAs generally know who is clean or not but they still need the MO to sign off.  Why not flag those guys, enroll while they wait for the MO to sign off on a broken leg they had when they were 6 years old.
It isn't about a blanket conditional enrollments for everyone but there are many cases where it could and should happen.
It isn't hard and we don't need to make excuses.  Just do it.

The CAF doesn't do ERC's as part of the enrolment application process, only the RS portion.  The initlal Pre-Sec "query" is only required where certain indicators are present (dual citizenship, if you lived, worked, studied or travelled outside of Canada in the last 10 years for a total of at least 180 days or if you have a child, parent, step-parent, spouse, in-laws, brother or sister (half & step) living outside of Canada).  Therefore it must be verified in advance that those indicators will not be a barrier in obtaining and being granted a GoC Security Clearance and this part takes 1-2 weeks tops before a decision is made as to whether a "full" Pre-Sec will be required.  The RS allows for required access of PA and PB materials, whilst the ERC allows for required access to PC materials.  The RS is a mandated requirement prior to starting any type of employment with the GoC, be it with the CAF or Public Service.  This portion will never be shortened or waived.  It can be sped up, like anything else but the question is, how much of your limited resources are you willing to dedicate to this task at the sacrifice of other processing areas?

Main Recruiting Detachments are manned by Snr and Jr Med Techs (Sgt's and Cpl's) who administer and process the initial medical screening.  Approvals and the granting of the Med Cat is only done by the RMO, which isn't much different than a Reg Force Med Cat for serving members.

At the end of the day, it's all about available resources, both personnel and money.  Risk management does come into play but over the years many many many layers of processing have been added and you can see the results for yourself.

The system has become a beauracracy of checks and balances, compounded by more checks and balances because someone somewhere thought it to be a good idea.  Are we enrolling "better" applicants today as opposed to 20 years ago because of it?
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2016, 14:20:17 »
Are we enrolling "better" applicants today as opposed to 20 years ago because of it?

Harrumph.  Clearly not, since all of us old farts (who are perfect) enrolled more than twenty years ago.   ;)
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Offline RCPalmer

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2016, 15:40:41 »
There's a reason people need a pre-sec, circumventing that is not a valid COA. Medicals should be approved by higher medical authority, it's how long it takes is the problem. We're already recruiting people who are unfit physically and with no mental health screening, making it easier just kicks the problem to units, who can't afford to spend the time on the admin burden.

I think that the admin burden associated with the current recruiting bureaucracy is far greater than the admin burden created by a few irregular enrollments.

Keep in mind that PRes members are FORCE tested prior to enrollment. It may not be the best test, but it is the standard. 

As noted above, pre-sec is not required unless the applicant reports foreign implications. Such a self-disclosure would be status quo in any conditional enrollment scenario.

I think that a self disclosure form would address the the criminal and credit RS issues in 95% of cases.  In the extremely rare case where the member lied, we would find out in their first month or two in the CAF, and they could be released during BMQ. 

As for medicals, why would we centralize the decision making authority in an RMO who has never seen the applicant? If the criteria are clearly articulated, why can't that be left in the hands of the PA/Med Tech conducting the exam, or better yet, the applicant's family doctor?

All of a sudden we have moved from a 6 month+ processing cycle to true one day processing if we scheduled a CFAT, interview and PT test on the same day. 

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2016, 15:58:20 »
Except we are subject to US restrictions on technology which require a clearance to do things like handle the service weapon. A bit if a showstopper,  that.
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Offline RCPalmer

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2016, 16:32:08 »
Except we are subject to US restrictions on technology which require a clearance to do things like handle the service weapon. A bit if a showstopper,  that.

A significant portion of the CF is walking around without a valid security clearance at any given moment.  We would still award RS. It would just be awarded post enrollment.  We pretty much need a PRes member enrolled a month before BMQ to conduct in clearance, issue kit and course load anyway. Alternatively, we could structure our BMQs with that imperative in mind.  However, if we can find a way to donate C7s to the ANA, I am sure we can find a way to put a C7 into the hands of a Canadian citizen with a conditional enrollment. 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 16:45:27 by RCPalmer »

Offline Colin P

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2016, 16:46:02 »
Prior to computers enrolling was far faster, amazing how short things become when you have to do everything by hand. I believe we did very similar to what the OP is suggesting, you were initially assessed based on your current heath and your history, if no flags you were enrolled shortly thereafter. As I vaguely recall, I did my initial interview and paperwork in late November and started the basic training in late January when they started their yearly recruit course. (I should add that I had disclosed that my family and I had traveled the Soviet Union 7 years before, so it's likely my file was flagged) 

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2016, 16:47:07 »
I think that the admin burden associated with the current recruiting bureaucracy is far greater than the admin burden created by a few irregular enrollments.
Keep in mind that PRes members are FORCE tested prior to enrollment. It may not be the best test, but it is the standard. 
As noted above, pre-sec is not required unless the applicant reports foreign implications. Such a self-disclosure would be status quo in any conditional enrollment scenario.
I think that a self disclosure form would address the the criminal and credit RS issues in 95% of cases.  In the extremely rare case where the member lied, we would find out in their first month or two in the CAF, and they could be released during BMQ. 
As for medicals, why would we centralize the decision making authority in an RMO who has never seen the applicant? If the criteria are clearly articulated, why can't that be left in the hands of the PA/Med Tech conducting the exam, or better yet, the applicant's family doctor?
All of a sudden we have moved from a 6 month+ processing cycle to true one day processing if we scheduled a CFAT, interview and PT test on the same day.

5.e. Release Items are few and far between and when reapplying, requires the signature of the Comd CFRG, after jumping through many hoops.

CFRG doesn't "own" the Medical portion of the process, they merely administer it.  It's no different than Regular Force Medicals.  The Cpl/MCpl/Sgt/PA/MO at your local Health Services Centres isn't the approving authority for your final Med Cat, they only recommend it.  Final decisions will always go higher for approval and there's no way around this at the present time.

Your %'s noted in the item "highlighted" above in yellow aren't entirely accurate.  Keep in mind, applicants to the CAF are applying for a "JOB" but at the sametime are VERY intimidated by their surroundings, who wouldn't be?  They tend to forget some of the minute details when completing their forms.  It all eventually comes out in the wash though.

The PRes across all elements (Army, ARAF, NAVRES) have their own internal recruiting processes and people.  CAF Recruiting (CFRG) enhances the Reserve recruiting efforts but is not obligated nor funded to "directly" support Res Force recruiting objectives in any way.
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Offline DAA

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2016, 17:00:51 »
We pretty much need a PRes member enrolled a month before BMQ to conduct in clearance, issue kit and course load anyway. Alternatively, we could structure our BMQs with that imperative in mind.

So talk to your Brigade/Unit Recruiters, that's their job!  How hard is it for them to call their supporting Recruiting Detachment and ask for an application(s) to be processed prior to a certain date?  I'm sure they have telephones and a reasonably good working relationship with the local CFRC.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2016, 17:18:57 »
If CFRCs ate not mandated to sp the Reserves,  then all those full time Res positions and associated pay & O&M need to be taken away.
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Offline CBH99

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2016, 17:50:09 »
How did all of this stuff happen before we had fax machines, e-mail, scanners, cellular phones, etc?    ;)


*Tangent alert.  I remember when I was course staff a few years ago on a BMQ.  I had a recruit show up in her CADPAT uniform, and running shoes.  A few of us went over to speak to her shortly after she showed up, and she said that was how ASU told her to dress because they didn't have her size of boots.  Sigh.

Same recruit, the next day.  We are going through a kit review with everybody, and just making sure we have the course all squared away before we really begin training.  She pulls out a purple sleeping bag.  Sigh.  I went over with another staff member, and sure enough - it is what ASU issued her, because they didn't have any more green sleeping bags. 

We all just chuckled at her situation, poor kid.  She wasn't dumb, she knew how ridiculous her situation was.  I drove her back to ASU one afternoon to get some of her kit sorted out, and sure enough - the person working behind the counter confirmed her story.  No boots, but here's some running shoes.  No green sleeping bags, so we gave her a purple one.   

She was a great kid, great recruit, and ended up graduating near the top of the class I think.  She ended up going CANSOFCOM after like 2yrs of being in, and actually ended up being pretty badass. 


^Not sure what the above has to do with anything.  Just reading this thread made me think of her for some reason.
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Offline DAA

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2016, 17:57:40 »
If CFRCs ate not mandated to sp the Reserves,  then all those full time Res positions and associated pay & O&M need to be taken away.

The current full-time Class B "Reserve" positions allocated to CFRG are there to support Regular Force Recruiting only.  I think the 117 or so positions that you are referring to, are controlled by the Army, assigned to Brigade Level and are not part of nor associated with the Recruiting system so to speak.  They are dedicated to Res F recruiting efforts only.
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Offline RCPalmer

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2016, 18:24:27 »
5.e. Release Items are few and far between and when reapplying, requires the signature of the Comd CFRG, after jumping through many hoops.

That is completely self imposed, and can be addressed internally. When I worked in recruiting, 5.e. was within the CFRC CO's authority, and it was one form.  It is simply a matter of delegating the correct release item to the proper authority (CBG Comd/Unit CO) or making use of one of the release items already available to them.

CFRG doesn't "own" the Medical portion of the process, they merely administer it.  It's no different than Regular Force Medicals.  The Cpl/MCpl/Sgt/PA/MO at your local Health Services Centres isn't the approving authority for your final Med Cat, they only recommend it.  Final decisions will always go higher for approval and there's no way around this at the present time.

I get that, but that is no reason to accept an inefficient and ineffective process.

Your %'s noted in the item "highlighted" above in yellow aren't entirely accurate.  Keep in mind, applicants to the CAF are applying for a "JOB" but at the sametime are VERY intimidated by their surroundings, who wouldn't be?  They tend to forget some of the minute details when completing their forms.  It all eventually comes out in the wash though.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one.  I was a Prod O and MCC for three years, conducted hundreds of interviews and thousands of files went across my desk.  In my experience, criminal issues were rarely a surprise.  Credit issues were more complicated, but the issues found in the reports were rarely showstoppers.  An applicant might forget about their overdue fees from the library, but they aren't going to forget that they are under bankruptcy proceedings, and if they do we are completely in our rights to treat that as a breach of trust, and process as an irregular enrollment.

The PRes across all elements (Army, ARAF, NAVRES) have their own internal recruiting processes and people.  CAF Recruiting (CFRG) enhances the Reserve recruiting efforts but is not obligated nor funded to "directly" support Res Force recruiting objectives in any way.

Incorrect.  PRes attractions is the responsibility of the elements.  The entire CAF applicant processing capability is either organic to, or operates under the control of CFRG. If PRes applicant processing was not a CFRG responsibility, it would be resourced and manned completely differently.

So talk to your Brigade/Unit Recruiters, that's their job!  How hard is it for them to call their supporting Recruiting Detachment and ask for an application(s) to be processed prior to a certain date?  I'm sure they have telephones and a reasonably good working relationship with the local CFRC.

I would be happy to take that to the PMs.  I have observed that process on both sides of the fence for more than a decade, and it has proven extremely problematic.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 18:39:35 by RCPalmer »

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2016, 19:17:29 »
The PRes across all elements (Army, ARAF, NAVRES) have their own internal recruiting processes and people.  CAF Recruiting (CFRG) enhances the Reserve recruiting efforts but is not obligated nor funded to "directly" support Res Force recruiting objectives in any way.

Having been involved with Recruiting in a PRes unit, between 2005 and 2013 I can say that the CFRG is responsible for all CF recruiting.  The Reserve units may have Recruiters, but they are not solely responsible for Recruiting, the CFRC's are.  The Reserve unit Recruiters act as the "First Line" in the unit recruiting process, conducting interviews and selection of prospects which they then hand over to the CFRC with an "Acceptance Letter" (may be a formal letter or a msg to CFRC) for processing, along with the CFRC Reg F prospects.  The CFRC will conduct all the same Interviews, Medicals, PT Testing (Reserve prospects only), etc. as they would for a Reg F prospect.  The Reserve unit Recruiters only liaise with the CFRC to keep appraised of the prospect's progress.  When the CFRC has completed the process, and the prospect is found acceptable for enrollment, their documentation is sent to the Reserve Recruiter to conduct the Enrollment Ceremony.  The Reserve Recruiter will return documentation to the CFRC so that they can close their files there, and have the CC in the unit OR open up the Pers File for the individual.

Reserve Recruiters take the same Recruiter Crse as the Reg F at CFRG and will have to do OJT at a CFRC to attain the full Recruiter Qual.  Class B's working at CFRC's handle all CF prospects files, Reg and Res. 
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2016, 02:11:46 »
Honestly as long as conditional enrollments are hopefully done correctly there will hopefully not be a problem, and if their is a red flag, given how the PRes is, more then likely the person can be removed before they even reach BMQ.
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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2016, 06:51:26 »
Hope is not a valid COA.

Offline RCPalmer

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2016, 10:48:52 »
Hope is not a valid COA.

At the moment, status quo isn't a valid COA either. The failures of the recruiting system are impacting the ability of the reserve force to fullfill their assigned mandate, and grow in accordance with government direction.  I am all for fixing the underlying processes, but I recognize that they are outside of the control of the Army, or in some cases, the CAF.  There is also a significant element of institutional inertia to be overcome here, and we simply can't wait anymore if we are going to follow the lawful orders we have received from the CDS and Comd CA.  Conditional enrollments have been used quite successfully in the past, and provide the force the flexibility to get members going on training while the bureaucracy grinds along.

In the conditional enrollment scenario the PRes member still receives the same amount of screening as a RegF member (more if you keep in mind that the PRes conducts pre-enrollment fitness testing), within their first couple of months in the CAF.  All we are talking about here is assuming some risk during basic training, which I have noted in my posts above, is minimal. 

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2016, 11:07:01 »
What I witnessed, now that all recruiting is through the CFRG, is that the REG F quota system and criteria are applied to the Reserves.  Unlike the Reg F, that is recruiting for full-time work in various Trades, a Reserve unit is only recruiting, in the majority of cases, single Trade Cbt Arms types.  Non-Cbt Arms units face their own distinctive problems that are quite different, as well.  All Reserve units, however, can not survive by only recruiting to fill their allotted positions, as the Reg F does.  They must, due to high turn over and attrition for numerous reasons, recruit a minimum of four or five for each position in the dire hopes of keeping those positions filled.  Succession planning in the Reserves is difficult when a great number of their members may only remain in the unit or as Reservists for two to five years.  Being a much smaller organization than the Regular Force, one that rarely transfers members to other units, that becomes quite problematic.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2016, 11:17:46 »
I have heard that the PRes establishment is greater than the authorized strength.  That means that by design the PRes cannot fill all its positions and some units will do without ... but that is not a recruiting problem.  It is a topic of another thread.

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Re: Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2016, 11:48:21 »
I have heard that the PRes establishment is greater than the authorized strength.  That means that by design the PRes cannot fill all its positions and some units will do without ... but that is not a recruiting problem.  It is a topic of another thread.

The establishments are definitely another topic, and as you say there are some structural issues that prevent the PRes from ever approaching its full ARE strength.  However, I still think both recruiting and training system improvements will be required to achieve even the modest PRes growth necessary to ensure the long term viability of the organization.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 11:57:48 by RCPalmer »