Author Topic: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition  (Read 51354 times)

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #175 on: August 05, 2019, 00:36:03 »
When police come out to respond to these incidents, having a weapon in your hand means the cops will assume you are an active shooter and neutralize you.
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #176 on: August 05, 2019, 00:39:26 »
Yeah.  That happens all the time in the US.  Shoot-on-sight is the prevailing doctrine.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #177 on: August 05, 2019, 01:17:14 »
Yeah.  That happens all the time in the US.  Shoot-on-sight is the prevailing doctrine.

In some places you might be right but I don't show off my weapon. I have been stopped by police and they have asked if I had anything that might hurt them.I reply no officer. On those occaisions I wasnt armed and the police didnt ask to search my vehicle or my person they just took me at my word. I think having the right attitude is best if you have to deal with the police.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #178 on: August 05, 2019, 02:04:01 »
When police come out to respond to these incidents, having a weapon in your hand means the cops will assume you are an active shooter and neutralize you.

I'd like to see your stats on that. I've held concealed carry, for a few states and your assertions don't square with the occurrences.
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What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #179 on: August 05, 2019, 02:06:55 »
In some places you might be right but I don't show off my weapon. I have been stopped by police and they have asked if I had anything that might hurt them.I reply no officer. On those occaisions I wasnt armed and the police didnt ask to search my vehicle or my person they just took me at my word. I think having the right attitude is best if you have to deal with the police.

I think Brad was being sarcastic :dunno: but I agree with you.
Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline Remius

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #180 on: August 05, 2019, 09:05:17 »
When police come out to respond to these incidents, having a weapon in your hand means the cops will assume you are an active shooter and neutralize you.

It probably does not help the situation. But there are other factors that can lead to that happening. 

There were two high profile cases in 2018 where that’s happened.  In the mall shooting case the police cite the fact that so many people had their gun shots out as to the reason they shot a black man who had a legal permit and had his gun out. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46350307


Optio

Offline Remius

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #181 on: August 05, 2019, 09:34:26 »
The manifesto allegedly published by the El Paso shooter makes it explicitly clear what his political grievances. Words matter. Political discourse matters. The things people say to gain and hold power matter.

One republican agrees with that sentiment.

https://www.mediaite.com/news/nebraska-state-gop-senator-republican-party-is-complicit-in-enabling-white-supremacy/
Optio

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #182 on: August 05, 2019, 09:47:43 »
The rhetoric here is unnecessary. These tragedies did not happen in Canada. The Texas shooter WAS NOT a religious extremist but a guy who hated Mexicans.
       ???

a.  Much of what's posted on this site is unnecessary.
b.  Equally, when did there have to be a Canadian nexus for any post (other than those specifically discussing Canadian military, politics, etc)?
c.  To explain the thread's title, "Religious/Extremist Terrorism," the slash routinely means "and/or" -- there's no requirement to post only on religious terrorism. 

/explaining the obvious

Offline Brihard

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #183 on: August 05, 2019, 10:50:09 »
If what you're trying to underhandedly say is this is Mr. Trumps fault, then its a fail...…I don't believe this just started 3 years ago.

Media is the number one problem.....even the most pathetic loser gets to think he can have his face plastered all over the TV like some kind of star.  If you're cute maybe even the cover of People.  Second is some parts of the Constitution is tired, old, and frail.   Written when it took everybody a minute or so to reload, not when you can fire off hundreds of bullets in a minute.

No Bruce, a ‘fail’ is when it has become quite routine for kids to get shot and killed in these sorts of massacres. A ‘fail’ is when any arsehole with a nurtured grudge and an easily acquired semiautomatic rifle can lay waste to a Wal Mart, or a school, or a garlic festival, or what have you. A ‘fail’ is when a country that, pretty uniquely in the developed world, has an epidemic of mass shootings, chooses not to really do anything about it.

The responsibility is always with the person pulling the trigger. They are the directly culpable party. However there is nothing innate or biological about hatred. That’s learned and cultivated behaviour. A couple days ago a guy went hunting Hispanics. His alleged manifesto characterized them as ‘invaders’. While his views were likely formed before the current presidency, we nonetheless have in Mr. Trump a figure who emboldens and incites this kind of rhetoric. He has made it ok in some circles to hate again, and has normalized it. He and his sycophants absolutely wear some responsibility for the social and political trends that we see. America almost had white supremacy beat in most practical terms. In the past couple years we’ve seen a resurgence and an emboldening- and then get told there are ‘good people on both sides’.

We’ve had the white nationalism discussion on this group before and there’s been some loud and angry denial of the problem from some circles. Well, here it is, starkly in our faces, with a mass murder and resultant terrorism/hate crimes investigation. Absolutely, politicians that deliberately stoke those flames bear some responsibility.

One republican agrees with that sentiment.

https://www.mediaite.com/news/nebraska-state-gop-senator-republican-party-is-complicit-in-enabling-white-supremacy/

See also this op-Ed published by George W. Bush’s former speechwriter on the dangers of racism being trotted out by the administration:

https://lacrossetribune.com/opinion/columnists/michael-gerson-the-return-of-america-s-cruelest-passion/article_0d1c3d53-9054-5725-b9eb-946e5ff5eeed.html

(Disclosure- yes, I know Gerson is now a columnist and often publishes for the Washington Post. Those who are so inclined may spare the effort of reading it and considering the opinions presented, and just do the fingers-in-the-ears ‘fake news’ thing.)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 12:13:19 by Brihard »
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #184 on: August 05, 2019, 11:38:32 »
A couple points to bring some facts into the discussion instead of emotion

Firstly, the USA has roughly the same long gun death rate per capita as Canada despite the difference in our laws. You are more likely to be beaten to death by someones fists in the USA than shot by a AR-15.

Secondly, gun control would likely not have made much of a difference. If they had Canada's laws odds are those same people would have been able to get the same firearms or very similar firearms as the ones used in the attacks. If you don't have a criminal background or a history of recorded mental illness then there's no issue in getting a licence.

Thirdly, for the '251' mass shootings in the USA most of those are gang violence, done to other gangs with handguns. Handguns also by a significant majority the preferred weapon of murder as it is easily concealed, cheaper, and easy to dispose of. If you want the actual number for real mass shooting of this type I prefer the 110 since 1982 that Mother Jones has tabulated.

Fourthly, its interesting to note that all the proposed controls target long guns which ultimately aren't very practical for criminals. They are effective at resisting governments though. The only criminal that prefers them is these mass shooters, who ultimately aren't seeking to survive the confrontations, hence the choice in weapon.

Fifthly, it is arguable the 2nd Amendment is more important now than ever. Countries can very quickly slide into a dictatorship with unprecedented powers thanks to all the technology around. Citizens that are armed prevent dictatorships. Yes there are people killed by firearms every year, but when firearms are banned the murder rate doesn't magically drop to nothing, just the method of murder changes. It doesn't even have to be the government which brings in gun control to have it abused. In the 1920s the Weimar governments of Germany instuted gun control, fast forward to the 1930s and one of the first things the Nazis did was ban ownership completely and go door to door collecting firearms preventing the people from resisting. Russia, China, Cambodia, etc. Venezuela in 2014 banned firearms ownership, now they under a dictatorship and starving unable to resist.

Look at all the horrible things done in the last century without the technology that is available now. The stuff the Stazi used to do in East Germany is absolutely terror inducing and that was without even having anything close to modern tech. And you can say well the USA had never had a dictatorship, and that is true. The reason for that could very well be because they are armed to prevent it.

Its a sad situation, technology hasn't changed for firearms in about 70 years (the AR-15 is a 50s design), yet within the last 20 citizens have. I personally will blame social media, increased intolerance in society, and technology for these events. I have my theories as to why these people become so disillusioned, but I haven't fully formulated them so I am not going to speak of them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world/us_and_canada&link_location=live-reporting-story
^ BBC charts on US firearms
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3510007201
^ Canada's homicides by firearms
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls
^USA homicide by type

So conclusion is you are actually pretty safe in the USA, as long as you keep out of the gang areas your just as safe as Canada. Its actually the safest its ever been in the USA, crime rates have been dropping just like the rest of the Western world. You need to address why people are killing others, not how. Remove the reasons and you end up with a pretty peaceful society even if everyone is armed (look at the Swiss for a example of that).
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #185 on: August 05, 2019, 12:17:35 »
>a country that, pretty uniquely in the developed world, has an epidemic of mass shootings

That is unlikely to be true (ie. it's a very low-odds hypothesis).  John Lott (who is strongly pro-gun-rights) has found that the US is not at the front of the pack, even among developed countries, for rates of deaths, or rates of incidents.  Specifically, he found that the research by Adam Lankford severely under-counted mass shootings outside the US.  (Lankford's research was widely cited for years, and probably still is.)  It is true that the rate of incidents (by any measure, and there are several) in the US has risen sharply in the past three years.  And to further confound the theories some hold to, the correlation between ownership and incidents is weak.

It is unlikely that Trump is significantly responsible.  Everyone one who contributes some heat to boil the pot bears responsibility, and there are many more stressors than Trump.

Suppose we had a political map (1, 2, N dimensions - doesn't matter) and mapped everyone into it.  Some people will be further from the centre than others (hold extreme positions); some will be more easily destabilized to more extreme positions (moving further outward); some will be more easily destabilized to violence.  (Being "extremist" is not synonymous with "bad" - for example, libertarians would hold an extreme position, but I doubt we would find either that libertarians are easily swayed from their beliefs or that they are violence prone.)

Now consider the people who are extreme, prone to becoming more extreme when things don't go their way, and have a low "black flag" threshold.  (HL Mencken - Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.")

In the case of white supremacists, Trump must have some influence, but I think it is tiny.  There are so many other provocations - cities declaring themselves sanctuaries, calls for ICE to be abolished, various public statements by politicians and candidates that amount to something close to calls for open or practically unenforced borders, ditto calls for welfare benefits, malcontents focusing only on the shortcomings of the US, etc.  All of these are likely to make the angry people angrier.  Good luck measuring the relative contributions of the stressors.

So, yes, Trump should STFU.  But so should so very many other people, if the aim is to turn down the heat.  And note that this is not a moral judgement; it is recognition that everything in public discourse can contribute to radicalization regardless of what is intended.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #186 on: August 05, 2019, 12:43:52 »
>a country that, pretty uniquely in the developed world, has an epidemic of mass shootings

That is unlikely to be true (ie. it's a very low-odds hypothesis).  John Lott (who is strongly pro-gun-rights) has found that the US is not at the front of the pack, even among developed countries, for rates of deaths, or rates of incidents.  Specifically, he found that the research by Adam Lankford severely under-counted mass shootings outside the US.  (Lankford's research was widely cited for years, and probably still is.)  It is true that the rate of incidents (by any measure, and there are several) in the US has risen sharply in the past three years.  And to further confound the theories some hold to, the correlation between ownership and incidents is weak.

It is unlikely that Trump is significantly responsible.  Everyone one who contributes some heat to boil the pot bears responsibility, and there are many more stressors than Trump.

Suppose we had a political map (1, 2, N dimensions - doesn't matter) and mapped everyone into it.  Some people will be further from the centre than others (hold extreme positions); some will be more easily destabilized to more extreme positions (moving further outward); some will be more easily destabilized to violence.  (Being "extremist" is not synonymous with "bad" - for example, libertarians would hold an extreme position, but I doubt we would find either that libertarians are easily swayed from their beliefs or that they are violence prone.)

Now consider the people who are extreme, prone to becoming more extreme when things don't go their way, and have a low "black flag" threshold.  (HL Mencken - Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.")

In the case of white supremacists, Trump must have some influence, but I think it is tiny.  There are so many other provocations - cities declaring themselves sanctuaries, calls for ICE to be abolished, various public statements by politicians and candidates that amount to something close to calls for open or practically unenforced borders, ditto calls for welfare benefits, malcontents focusing only on the shortcomings of the US, etc.  All of these are likely to make the angry people angrier.  Good luck measuring the relative contributions of the stressors.

So, yes, Trump should STFU.  But so should so very many other people, if the aim is to turn down the heat.  And note that this is not a moral judgement; it is recognition that everything in public discourse can contribute to radicalization regardless of what is intended.

I agree that there are many ‘sources of heat’ on this, no doubt there. I don’t agree with underselling Trump’s influence; he’s the president, and he is an ideological leadership figure. Do I think he entered the presidency intending to stoke these particular flames? No, I do not. Do I think he saw quickly that it works, and that he is self centered enough to make use of it and the consequences be damned? Absolutely. That’s the most logical explanation for the blatant pandering to the far right that we’ve seen.

Certainly, there are many others that need to pipe down too. Equally certainly, this is just one form of extremism that contributes to major acts of violence. El Paso is the most graphic and recent, though in the past year or two there have been other mass shootings that can be laid firmly at the feet of white nationalists with very conventional far right views.

I absolutely cannot agree with your suggestion that America doesn’t have an exceptional problem with mass shootings. If we exclude all the gang and domestic violence and stick strictly to situations where someone is trying to rack up a high score, anywhere else this happens is hugely exceptional. I think of the mass shooting on the Norwegian island; or the Christchurch shooting, or a similarly rare few overseas examples. In America there are several a year. Mainland Europe can obfuscate this a bit with some of their incidents- but that’s generally a case of Islamist terrorism, and this thread is the non-Musim edition of terrorism/extremism.

Does extremism with equal vitriol exist elsewhere? Sure, to an extent it does. But nowhere else in the developed world is it fuelling mass killings with this regularity. I’m not going to go down the gun control rabbit hole, there are other threads and that would be a huge waste of our time here. Suffice it to say that America is exceptional, bordering on unique, in the magnitude and manifestation of this problem.

Remembering that this is a discussion of extremism and terrorism, I’ll go back to what I said: racist, white supremacist / white nationalist extremism is a growing problem. A bunch of us have been saying this for a while, now it’s just damned hard to ignore unless you pretend those hispanic kids didn’t just get shot up in El Paso.

A number of the recent mass killings have been more ‘nihilist’ in flavour, as someone alluded to above- usually white male in his teens or early 20s, single, socioeconomically an underachiever, and mad at the world. In El Paso, though, we see some of these same factors buttressed with blatant and explicit white supremacy. His manifesto (I just found and read it) is short and to the point. He cites the racist screed ‘The Great Replacement’ as an ideological inspiration. He views himself as contributing to ‘an incentive’ for hispanics to leave. He deplores race mixing... It’s a blatantly racist screen. He disclaims being called a ‘white supremacist’, but his actions and words obviously belie that. He states his views were formed pre-Trump (which I believe), and then disclaims as ‘fake news’ what he correctly anticipated many of us would say about drawing that link. That, I don’t buy. Views formed before adulthood still don’t lead to mass murder unless they’re reinforced and enabled by a permissive cultural environment.

The scary part? Near the end he gives advice on seeking soft targets, not wasting one’s life an effort hitting heavily protected targets, and very much posits his actions as the start of a fight against the Hispanic replacement of whites, and the (in his mind) inevitable resultant swing of Texas and other states to the democrats. This is going to be compelling to some. I fear we’re going to see this happen again.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #187 on: August 05, 2019, 12:52:17 »
A couple points to bring some facts into the discussion instead of emotion
Some very  cherry-picked 'facts'  -- from being more likely beaten to death than shot with an AR-15;  conveniently ignoring the total firearm deaths in your source (just over 11,000 shooting deaths vs 656 beating deaths)... to arguing that gang-related mass shootings should be discounted... to suggesting that everyone need be armed to avoid some inevitable dictatorship.

I'd hate to see you argue from emotion.    :pop:

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #188 on: August 05, 2019, 15:56:37 »
>I think of the mass shooting on the Norwegian island; or the Christchurch shooting, or a similarly rare few overseas examples.

US: ~330M people.
NO: ~5.3M
NZ: ~5M

Absolute numbers are almost without meaning.  Use rates, preferably per capita.  The US is not exceptional; it isn't even at the top of the lists.

I doubt Trump makes conscious use of whatever white supremacists want to hear.  Trump's remarks of all types are purely opportunistic based on who he is trying to score points against at a particular moment in time - he doesn't switch between shooting from the lip and cunningly deployed rhetoric.  And, many of his remarks are repeated badly out of context, which doesn't help.

White supremacist groups in the US may be increasing right now; in the longer term, they have clearly declined over decades.  Are they more active, or is that a mistaken impression fed by media exposure in the internet age?  It's imprudent to conclude that these problems exist because of Trump rather than some of the factors which helped lead to Trump's election.

Why is a clear understanding of Trump's degree of influence important?  Because we can't solve a problem if we don't correctly identify the source.  Examples: if extremists care more about Democratic policy statements and/or opinion writers opining that the day of majority-white America is over than they do about Trump's trolling/insults, reforming Trump doesn't solve the problem.

If Trump reforms tomorrow and becomes a gracious and wise leader, the mad-hatters will do what they always do: move him into the part-of-the-conspiracy column.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #189 on: August 05, 2019, 16:57:54 »
The El Paso shooter was a right wing racist who killed 22 and injured 20+ more. Lots of people will argue obviously somehow Trumps fault.

The Dayton shooter killed 9 and injured 26 others. The Dayton shooter was also a self-proclaimed leftist and socialist who hated Trump, praised the man who attacked the U.S. immigration detention centre, condemed Trumps immigration policies, expressed support for ANTIFA groups retweeting their tweets and expressed support for Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.

Also Trumps fault?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 17:05:43 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #190 on: August 05, 2019, 17:17:40 »
The Dayton shooter killed 9 and injured 26 others.

The El Paso shooter made his motive clear.

Toledo  Dayton police have not yet established a motive. He killed his sister. Was she the intended target, and the others simply "collateral damage"?


« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 10:41:26 by mariomike »

Offline Brihard

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #191 on: August 05, 2019, 17:18:13 »
>I think of the mass shooting on the Norwegian island; or the Christchurch shooting, or a similarly rare few overseas examples.

US: ~330M people.
NO: ~5.3M
NZ: ~5M

Absolute numbers are almost without meaning.  Use rates, preferably per capita.  The US is not exceptional; it isn't even at the top of the lists.

I doubt Trump makes conscious use of whatever white supremacists want to hear.  Trump's remarks of all types are purely opportunistic based on who he is trying to score points against at a particular moment in time - he doesn't switch between shooting from the lip and cunningly deployed rhetoric.  And, many of his remarks are repeated badly out of context, which doesn't help.

White supremacist groups in the US may be increasing right now; in the longer term, they have clearly declined over decades.  Are they more active, or is that a mistaken impression fed by media exposure in the internet age?  It's imprudent to conclude that these problems exist because of Trump rather than some of the factors which helped lead to Trump's election.

Why is a clear understanding of Trump's degree of influence important?  Because we can't solve a problem if we don't correctly identify the source.  Examples: if extremists care more about Democratic policy statements and/or opinion writers opining that the day of majority-white America is over than they do about Trump's trolling/insults, reforming Trump doesn't solve the problem.

If Trump reforms tomorrow and becomes a gracious and wise leader, the mad-hatters will do what they always do: move him into the part-of-the-conspiracy column.

Yes, I'm aware of rates-based statistics as used in criminology/epidemiology. Generally we use rates per 100,000 population.

Problem is, to compare rates you need meaningful sample sizes. When a given country generally only has one of such instances in a multi-year span, there's insufficient sample for any decent statistical comparison. The U.S. of course does not have this problem. A very non-exhaustive list on Wiki actually does a pretty good job of filtering out the bulk of shootings that are gang violence related; most of what's on here is what we typically are speaking of when we refer to 'mass shootings' by someone with a grudge, outside of the gang violence context. It's surprising how many happen that barely make the national/international news- again, a stinging indictment of just how common these are. The fact that no other developed country has such prevalence of mass shootings relative to population as to allow for a meaningful comparison doesn't help paint a brighter picture for the U.S. at all.

It's easy to say 'absolute numbers are almost meaningless'. Probably a bit harder to look the families of the victims in the eyes and say the same thing. The absolute numbers, coarse and difficult to compare as they may be, are still atrocious. The raw 'absolute numbers' still paint a picture of a mass shooting problem in the U.S. that's unparalleled in other developed countries. While the bulk are not politically motivated, certainly some of them are- two problems finding overlap, with a lot of blood being shed as a result.

These are, of course, just the individuals who make it to the point of pulling a trigger. The current FBI director testified before the Senate judiciary committee back in late July. One of the interesting facts that dropped was that as of about that time, FBI had arrested nearly a hundred "domestic terrorists", which he characterized as residents motivated to terrorism NOT in the context of either foreign terrorist organizations, or homegrown violent extremists who were radicalized along Islamist ideology. He also said that the number of domestic terrorists arrested was about the same as those motivated by overseas terror networks, and that the bulk of the domestic terrorists were along white supremacist ideological lines. To get to the point of arrests and charges, credible acts of violence had to be pretty far along in the planning/preparation stage. Understandably, most of these cases won't make the news simply because police catch someone in the course of plotting something, and nothing graphic or sensational enough occurs to command the air time. But it again highlights that this problem exists and that violent manifestations of white nationalist/supremacist ideology are thriving in some circles.

We obviously disagree about the ideological clout of the president, and his influence in inspiring/inciting actual action. I'm by no means claiming that he is a sole cause or even a necessary cause for this kind of violence. I am saying that he's normalizing the sentiments and making the situation worse. When you talk about 'hispanic invaders', and then someone parroting those same words goes hunting hispanics, that's not something you can easily walk back. An individual act of violence is not 'Trump's fault', nor have I ever claimed it to be. The shooter retains responsibility. The president, however, remains accountable for his words and his actions. Both are contributing to increased hate in America, which in turn is contributing in some cases to ideologically motivated violence.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #192 on: August 05, 2019, 17:49:54 »

The Dayton shooter killed 9 and injured 26 others. The Dayton shooter was also a self-proclaimed leftist and socialist who hated Trump, praised the man who attacked the U.S. immigration detention centre, condemed Trumps immigration policies, expressed support for ANTIFA groups retweeting their tweets and expressed support for Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.

The latest from Canadian Press:

Quote
  Classmates: Ohio shooter kept a 'hit list' and a 'rape list'

15 hrs ago

DAYTON, Ohio — High school classmates of the gunman who killed nine people early Sunday in Dayton, Ohio, say he was suspended for compiling a "hit list" of those he wanted to kill and a "rape list" of girls he wanted to sexually assault.

This undated photo provided by the Dayton Police Department shows Connor Betts.
The accounts by two former classmates emerged after police said there was nothing in the background of 24-year-old Connor Betts that would have prevented him from purchasing the .223-calibre rifle with extended ammunition magazines that he used to open fire outside a crowded bar. Police on patrol in the entertainment district fatally shot him less than a minute later.

Both former classmates told The Associated Press that Betts was suspended during their junior year at suburban Bellbrook High School after a hit list was found scrawled in a school bathroom. That followed an earlier suspension after Betts came to school with a list of female students he wanted to sexually assault, according to the two classmates, a man and a woman who are both now 24 and spoke on condition of anonymity out of concern they might face harassment.

"There was a kill list and a rape list, and my name was on the rape list," said the female classmate.

A former cheerleader, the woman said she didn't really know Betts and was surprised when a police officer called her cellphone during her freshman year to tell her that her name was included on a list of potential targets.

"The officer said he wouldn't be at school for a while," she said. "But after some time passed he was back, walking the halls. They didn't give us any warning that he was returning to school."

Bellbrook-Sugarcreek Schools officials declined to comment on those accounts, only confirming that Betts attended schools in the district.

The discovery of the hit list early in 2012 sparked a police investigation, and roughly one-third of Bellbrook students skipped school out of fear, according to an article in the Dayton Daily News.

It's not clear what became of that investigation. Chief Michael Brown in Sugarcreek Township, which has jurisdiction over the Bellbrook school, did not return calls Sunday about whether his agency investigated the hit list.

Though Betts, who was 17 at the time, was not named publicly by authorities at the time as the author of the list, the former classmates said it was common knowledge within the school he was the one suspended over the incident.

Drew Gainey was among those who went on social media Sunday to say red flags were raised about Betts' behaviour years ago.

"There was an incident in high school with this shooter that should have prevented him from ever getting his hands on a weapon. This was a tragedy that was 100% avoidable," he wrote on in a Twitter post on Sunday.

Gainey did not respond to messages from AP seeking further comment, but the name on his account matches that of a former Bellbrook student who was on the track team with Betts.
 
Former Bellbrook Principal Chris Baker said he "would not dispute that information" when the Daily News asked him Sunday about the hit list suspension. He declined to comment further to the newspaper and the AP was unable to reach him.

Betts had no apparent criminal record as an adult, though if he had been charged as a juvenile that would typically be sealed under state law.

"There's nothing in this individual's record that would have precluded him from getting these weapons," Dayton Police Chief Richard Biehl said Sunday.

Not everyone who went to school with Betts had bad things to say. Brad Howard told reporters in Bellbrook on Sunday that he was friends with Betts from preschool through their high school graduation.

"Connor Betts that I knew was a nice kid. The Connor Betts that I talked to, I always got along with well," Howard said.

Mike Kern, a customer at the gas station where Betts used to work in Bellbrook, said he hasn't seen Betts in about a year.

"He was the nicest kid you could imagine," always friendly, Kern said. "I never heard him talk about violence, say a racist word, or anything like that."

He said they sometimes played trivia at a bar near the gas station, and Betts often knew the answers on questions about current events and pop culture. "He was real smart," Kern said. "He knew all the answers."
___
Biesecker reported from Washington. AP reporters Reese Dunklin in Dallas, John Seewer in Bellbrook and Michael Kunzelman in Silver Spring, Maryland, contributed to this report.
Michael Biesecker And Julie Carr Smyth, The Associated Press

This is initial reporting on the shooter. More info will become available as time progresses.

Link contains photos, including weapon (AR-15) and drum magazines used in shooting.
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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #193 on: August 05, 2019, 18:09:48 »
Sometimes a shooting spree is simply a shooting spree. They're not always political.

eg: A disgruntled employee.

A sniper in a university clock-tower. Or Las Vegas.

I'm old enough to remember when "Going postal" was a popular term. But, I guess "the day of the gun toting disgruntled postman shooting up the place went out with the Macarena."

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #195 on: August 05, 2019, 19:37:05 »
1)  New Jersey's Dep't of Homeland Security's first take on the El Paso shooting attached.

2)  What #POTUS45 had to say about both shootings (text also attached in case link doesn't work) ...
Quote
REMARKS BY PRESIDENT TRUMP ON THE MASS SHOOTINGS IN TEXAS AND OHIO
Diplomatic Reception Room
10:08 A.M. EDT


THE PRESIDENT: Good morning. My fellow Americans, this morning, our nation is overcome with shock, horror, and sorrow. This weekend, more than 80 people were killed or wounded in two evil attacks.

On Saturday morning, in El Paso, Texas, a wicked man went to a Walmart store, where families were shopping with their loved ones. He shot and murdered 20 people, and injured 26 others, including precious little children.

Then, in the early hours of Sunday morning in Dayton, Ohio, another twisted monster opened fire on a crowded downtown street. He murdered 9 people, including his own sister, and injured 27 others.

The First Lady and I join all Americans in praying and grieving for the victims, their families, and the survivors. We will stand by their side forever. We will never forget.

These barbaric slaughters are an assault upon our communities, an attack upon our nation, and a crime against all of humanity. We are outraged and sickened by this monstrous evil, the cruelty, the hatred, the malice, the bloodshed, and the terror. Our hearts are shattered for every family whose parents, children, husbands, and wives were ripped from their arms and their lives. America weeps for the fallen.

We are a loving nation, and our children are entitled to grow up in a just, peaceful, and loving society. Together, we lock arms to shoulder the grief, we ask God in Heaven to ease the anguish of those who suffer, and we vow to act with urgent resolve.

I want to thank the many law enforcement personnel who responded to these atrocities with the extraordinary grace and courage of American heroes.

I have spoken with Texas Governor Greg Abbott and Ohio Governor Mike DeWine, as well as Mayor Dee Margo of El Paso, Texas, and Mayor Nan Whaley of Dayton, Ohio, to express our profound sadness and unfailing support.

Today, we also send the condolences of our nation to President Obrador of Mexico, and all the people of Mexico, for the loss of their citizens in the El Paso shooting. Terrible, terrible thing.

I have also been in close contact with Attorney General Barr and FBI Director Wray. Federal authorities are on the ground, and I have directed them to provide any and all assistance required -- whatever is needed.

The shooter in El Paso posted a manifesto online consumed by racist hate. In one voice, our nation must condemn racism, bigotry, and white supremacy. These sinister ideologies must be defeated. Hate has no place in America. Hatred warps the mind, ravages the heart, and devours the soul. We have asked the FBI to identify all further resources they need to investigate and disrupt hate crimes and domestic terrorism -- whatever they need.

We must recognize that the Internet has provided a dangerous avenue to radicalize disturbed minds and perform demented acts. We must shine light on the dark recesses of the Internet, and stop mass murders before they start. The Internet, likewise, is used for human trafficking, illegal drug distribution, and so many other heinous crimes. The perils of the Internet and social media cannot be ignored, and they will not be ignored.

In the two decades since Columbine, our nation has watched with rising horror and dread as one mass shooting has followed another -- over and over again, decade after decade.

We cannot allow ourselves to feel powerless. We can and will stop this evil contagion. In that task, we must honor the sacred memory of those we have lost by acting as one people. Open wounds cannot heal if we are divided. We must seek real, bipartisan solutions. We have to do that in a bipartisan manner. That will truly make America safer and better for all.

First, we must do a better job of identifying and acting on early warning signs. I am directing the Department of Justice to work in partisan -- partnership with local, state, and federal agencies, as well as social media companies, to develop tools that can detect mass shooters before they strike.

As an example, the monster in the Parkland high school in Florida had many red flags against him, and yet nobody took decisive action. Nobody did anything. Why not?

Second, we must stop the glorification of violence in our society. This includes the gruesome and grisly video games that are now commonplace. It is too easy today for troubled youth to surround themselves with a culture that celebrates violence. We must stop or substantially reduce this, and it has to begin immediately. Cultural change is hard, but each of us can choose to build a culture that celebrates the inherent worth and dignity of every human life. That’s what we have to do.

Third, we must reform our mental health laws to better identify mentally disturbed individuals who may commit acts of violence and make sure those people not only get treatment, but, when necessary, involuntary confinement. Mental illness and hatred pulls the trigger, not the gun.

Fourth, we must make sure that those judged to pose a grave risk to public safety do not have access to firearms, and that, if they do, those firearms can be taken through rapid due process. That is why I have called for red flag laws, also known as extreme risk protection orders.

Today, I am also directing the Department of Justice to propose legislation ensuring that those who commit hate crimes and mass murders face the death penalty, and that this capital punishment be delivered quickly, decisively, and without years of needless delay.

These are just a few of the areas of cooperation that we can pursue. I am open and ready to listen and discuss all ideas that will actually work and make a very big difference.

Republicans and Democrats have proven that we can join together in a bipartisan fashion to address this plague. Last year, we enacted the STOP School Violence and Fix NICS Acts into law, providing grants to improve school safety and strengthening critical background checks for firearm purchases. At my direction, the Department of Justice banned bump stocks. Last year, we prosecuted a record number of firearms offenses. But there is so much more that we have to do.

Now is the time to set destructive partisanship aside -- so destructive -- and find the courage to answer hatred with unity, devotion, and love. Our future is in our control. America will rise to the challenge. We will always have and we always will win. The choice is ours and ours alone. It is not up to mentally ill monsters; it is up to us.

If we are able to pass great legislation after all of these years, we will ensure that those who were attacked will not have died in vain.

May God bless the memory of those who perished [DEL: in Toledo :DEL] . May God protect them. May God protect all of those from Texas to Ohio. May God bless the victims and their families. May God bless America.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

END 10:18 A.M. EDT
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 20:22:26 by milnews.ca »
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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #196 on: August 05, 2019, 19:38:19 »
Quote from: Retired AF Guy

Link contains photos, including weapon (AR-15) and drum magazines used in shooting.

Good article. Just to highlight a few things.

Police said there was nothing in the background of 24-year-old Connor Betts that would have prevented him from purchasing an AR 15-style rifle

Really? I wonder why that is.

-suspended years ago for compiling a "hit list" and a "rape list,"
-suspended / hit list was found scrawled in a school bathroom.
-followed an earlier suspension after Betts came to school with a list of female students he wanted to sexually assault
-Betts routinely threatened violence toward other students.
-Most people avoided him
-He would say shocking things just to get a reaction. He enjoyed making people feel scared.
-roughly a third of 900 Bellbrook students skipped school one day out of fear of a planned attack.
-on a school bus when a uniformed police officer came on board, asked for Betts by name and then escorted him off.
-red flags were raised about Betts' behaviour years ago.
-Connor seriously threatened to hurt women who rejected him, myself included



How many times have we seen this play out after a school/work/mass shooting? Shooter has a laundry list of psychopath behavior and they seem to continuously fall through the cracks.

Is this another example of the school officials and police being pressured not to lay charges because they don't want to put a kid "in the system"? Like it was alleged with Broward County?  Maybe it's time to revamp the various young offenders acts and take psycho behavior like this more seriously- as if a freaking rape list and hit list isn't serious  :facepalm:
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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #197 on: August 05, 2019, 19:39:01 »
1)  New Jersey's Dep't of Homeland Security's first take on the El Paso shooting attached.

2)  What #POTUS45 had to say about both shootings (text also attached in case link doesn't work) ...
‘May God bless those who died in TOLEDO’. sigh...


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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #198 on: August 05, 2019, 19:48:03 »
-red flags were raised about Betts' behaviour years ago.

Quote
Even 31 Dead Might Not Get “Red Flag” Gun Laws Passed in Ohio and Texas
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/7x5zmx/even-31-dead-might-not-get-red-flag-gun-laws-passed-in-ohio-and-texas
But neither Ohio nor Texas, where 22 people died after a separate shooting in an El Paso Walmart Saturday, have what are known as “red flag” laws, which essentially allow police or relatives to ask a court to temporarily confiscate guns from people who may be dangerous to themselves or others. The shooters in both massacres, police have said, appear to have obtained their guns legally.




« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 09:18:20 by mariomike »

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Re: Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition
« Reply #199 on: August 05, 2019, 20:24:15 »
As for Toledo, a wonderful book set in the 1920s--Half Magic:

Quote
CHILDREN'S BOOKS: Magic That Endures: Two Classic Children's Spellbinders Turn 40 [1993]
https://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/14/books/childrens-books-magic-that-endures-two-classic-childrens-spellbinders.html





Full text of the book:
https://gutenberg.ca/ebooks/eagere-halfmagic/eagere-halfmagic-00-h.html

Mark
Ottawa
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 20:37:14 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.