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Offline eitan67

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MP Ride Along
« on: October 29, 2016, 00:14:40 »
Hi, currently in Policing Foundation and about to send an Email to basically an opportunity to get a ride along with Military Police personal in order to get the feel and more understanding of what the job is like and what to expect from it and wondering if any of you fellas and ladies have any suggestions on what question I should definitely ask or do I have to give a good impression or they all encourage people to apply how is it or simply if you experienced a ride along before you even applied to the Forces.

Offline Brihard

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2016, 00:24:37 »
For the love of God no. Try to get the ridealong with your local municipal department, preferably on a few busy Friday and Saturday nights. I did a 20x12 hour shift co-op placement witht he MPs from CFB Kingston some years back. In the whole 20 shifts there were about a half dozen calls, and I'm not exaggerating. A single drunk driver, a speeding ticket, a couple building alarms, and a minor construction site accident on base.

There are increasing limits to what police forces will allow ride alongs to be exposed to. We have become very risk adverse. But I cannot imagine it likely that you wouldn't have a more enlightening experience doing a few with a civilian police service that probably has a much higher case load and larger jurisdiction.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline eitan67

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2016, 01:04:33 »
Thing is MP is the only thing I want to get into because in general I want to join the Military and to get into Law Enforcement so maybe down the road after a few years I'll switch to RCMP perhaps, so I believe that the ride along would be some sort of educational, so far I learned it would be very limited and wouldn't want to expose me to the full experience that a MP actually deals with, I assume...

I just look for the most education I can get from MP in order to successfully apply and stand out to increase my chances of getting accepted I hope, because from what I understand its a competitive line of work and difficult to get into.

Offline mariomike

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2016, 06:47:52 »
For reference, perhaps,

MP Ride Along

will be merged with,

The Military Police [MP] Superthread 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,4577.0/nowap.html
33 pages.

See also,

Ride Along?
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=101371.0
Do the MP's still do ride alongs?

Doing a ride along with the MP's 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=46422.0

Joining the Military Police from civilian life 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,120675.msg1392935.html#msg1392935
"...try and set up a ride-along with your nearest MP unit. I'm not sure if they still do ride-alongs, things may have changed. I did mine out of Borden."
Locked.

MP Ride along
https://www.google.ca/search?q=military+police+ride+along&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=74MUWM6DKYWN8Qfd9oCwBg&gws_rd=ssl#cr=countryCA&tbs=ctr:countryCA&q=site:army.ca+%22ride+along%22

etc...

Aren't those the shifts where the guy says something like, "Relax, nothing ever happens around here..."  :)



« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 13:20:31 by mariomike »

Offline Habs

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2016, 16:06:50 »
Yup, nothing ever happens until it does... and you'd best be ready. Complacency is our #1 enemy.

You can be as busy as you want to be. Just know what you're getting into. People seem to forget we are the Military Police, not civilian police.

Brihard, just because you're a toon gone horseman, doesn't mean you should deter people with an interest in joining the MPs, or the CF as a whole for that matter...  ::) (Especially when you've never worked as an MP, and are basing your entire knowledge of a trade on a co-op program)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 16:50:35 by Habs »

Offline mariomike

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2016, 18:05:22 »
just because you're a toon

Had to look that word up!  ;D

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2016, 18:19:58 »
Yup, nothing ever happens until it does... and you'd best be ready. Complacency is our #1 enemy.

You can be as busy as you want to be. Just know what you're getting into. People seem to forget we are the Military Police, not civilian police.

Brihard, just because you're a toon gone horseman, doesn't mean you should deter people with an interest in joining the MPs, or the CF as a whole for that matter...  ::) (Especially when you've never worked as an MP, and are basing your entire knowledge of a trade on a co-op program)

I have two very close friends who are MPs and they've said the identical thing Brihard has about their own trade.


Had to look that word up!  ;D
It's what reservists call other reservists once they CT to the regs  :nod:
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 18:32:32 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline Brihard

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2016, 19:16:15 »
It's what reservists call other reservists once they CT to the regs  :nod:

Most self-hating ex reservists have the decency to wait a year or two before calling other reservists 'toon' but I guess having finished his reg force 3s a bare three months ago he probably feels pretty awesome still. And it's easier to be contemptuous of the reserves when your own reserve time was so brief that you barely had time to do anything. But I digress.

In any case, if the original poster is dead set on being an MP specifically, have at 'er. I erred in thinking his interest may be in policing more generally. MPs certainly are their own world and trade. They are not lesser than other organizations in any way; they are their own entity. It is accurate to say that their jurisdiction is much more limited and that they tend to deal with far less call volume than any municipal policing organization does. If he really wants to contest the point, I would certainly be interested to know how Habs' file load compares to a constable in any other police service in terms of volume and severity.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Habs

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2016, 19:53:56 »
I have two very close friends who are MPs and they've said the identical thing Brihard has about their own trade.

It's what reservists call other reservists once they CT to the regs  :nod:

And where did I disagree with what he said? I reaffirmed his point. And nope, I called myself a toon when I was a toon. Nothing wrong with poking fun at yourself.

Most self-hating ex reservists have the decency to wait a year or two before calling other reservists 'toon' but I guess having finished his reg force 3s a bare three months ago he probably feels pretty awesome still. And it's easier to be contemptuous of the reserves when your own reserve time was so brief that you barely had time to do anything. But I digress.

In any case, if the original poster is dead set on being an MP specifically, have at 'er. I erred in thinking his interest may be in policing more generally. MPs certainly are their own world and trade. They are not lesser than other organizations in any way; they are their own entity. It is accurate to say that their jurisdiction is much more limited and that they tend to deal with far less call volume than any municipal policing organization does. If he really wants to contest the point, I would certainly be interested to know how Habs' file load compares to a constable in any other police service in terms of volume and severity.

Three months ago? No MP QL3 course graduated 3 months ago... so not sure where you got all your 'information' from. Barely done anything? Where exactly did you discover this? Or are you trying to make yourself look cool? Feel free to continue to look at my posts/forum profile, be pretentious, and assume you know everything if you wish. Sure doesn't take a lot to hit a nerve with you, does it?

Where am I contesting your points? I literally agreed with you, save adding a couple points that you can't base your knowledge of something off a small experience with it, and how lazy an officer is will dictate how much work they have. Like I said, we are the Military Police, not the civilian police. Similar, but different.

And no, as much as I'd like to get into a pissing match with you and "compare call volume/severity" (who does that?), I'd much rather utilize my days off in some other fashion.

It's odd you took my post calling you out to not deter people showing an interest in the MPs/CF as a whole into this, but that's your choice I suppose. Perhaps you should be aware of what potential applicants may think when they see a 'Directing Staff' posting things in that nature. I don't think you'd appreciate me (or anyone) telling people to stay away from the RCMP and claiming I know everything about it, so why are you doing it with regards to the MP?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 20:34:06 by Habs »

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2016, 20:05:28 »
Hi, currently in Policing Foundation and about to send an Email to basically an opportunity to get a ride along with Military Police personal in order to get the feel and more understanding of what the job is like and what to expect from it and wondering if any of you fellas and ladies have any suggestions on what question I should definitely ask or do I have to give a good impression or they all encourage people to apply how is it or simply if you experienced a ride along before you even applied to the Forces.

For the love of God no. Try to get the ridealong with your local municipal department, preferably on a few busy Friday and Saturday nights. I did a 20x12 hour shift co-op placement witht he MPs from CFB Kingston some years back. In the whole 20 shifts there were about a half dozen calls, and I'm not exaggerating. A single drunk driver, a speeding ticket, a couple building alarms, and a minor construction site accident on base.

There are increasing limits to what police forces will allow ride alongs to be exposed to. We have become very risk adverse. But I cannot imagine it likely that you wouldn't have a more enlightening experience doing a few with a civilian police service that probably has a much higher case load and larger jurisdiction.

Having said that, The Military Police have a lot of unique opportunities available, such a as the Embassy Security details, Air Marshal program, Close Protection, Tactical Air Security Officer. Some of these programs and courses you can get on fairly quickly and early on in your career and you'll never spend another day handing out speeding tickets. I have heard of very few hear civilian police services where you can move into a specialty within the first 1-4 years of your career.

I love what I do, and I don't regret being an MP... Even with all the hate going around.

And those MPs crap on their own trade, many of them are bitter, jaded, and feel as though they're owed something or everyone is out to get them. Some of us do it jokingly, but love what we do.

It is still a good place to learn soldiering skills and also law enforcement skills. Yes, the lack of case files is what will give you a disadvantage when moving into civilian policing, but if you're intetested why not try it out? You're young, you have lots of time.

If you would like, PM me with your location, I can get you a contact for a Ride Along; or simply visit the MP Detachment at the base nearest you and they'll give you an application form.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 20:22:24 by LunchMeat »
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Offline Habs

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2016, 20:10:13 »
Yeah, back on topic.

OP, feel free to PM me your location as well (if you wish) and I can help you out as well.

It's unfortunate this is your first experience with the MP, but welcome to the internet.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 21:03:21 by Habs »

Offline Brihard

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2016, 21:24:24 »
And where did I disagree with what he said? I reaffirmed his point. And nope, I called myself a toon when I was a toon. Nothing wrong with poking fun at yourself.

Three months ago? No MP QL3 course graduated 3 months ago... so not sure where you got all your 'information' from. Barely done anything? Where exactly did you discover this? Or are you trying to make yourself look cool? Feel free to continue to look at my posts/forum profile, be pretentious, and assume you know everything if you wish. Sure doesn't take a lot to hit a nerve with you, does it?

An approximation. Your most recent post before this thread made mention that you were starting your MP QL3s in mid January, which at six months course duration for your 3s would have had you graduating in mid July. I may be off by a bit. Since you didn't join the reserves until the summer of 2012, and had your CT in within a year of that, I feel pretty safe with 'barely did anything'. That was purely in response to you smugly dropping the 'toon' card.

Where am I contesting your points? I literally agreed with you, save adding a couple points that you can't base your knowledge of something off a small experience with it, and how lazy an officer is will dictate how much work they have. Like I said, we are the Military Police, not the civilian police. Similar, but different.

And no, as much as I'd like to get into a pissing match with you and "compare call volume/severity" (who does that?), I'd much rather utilize my days off in some other fashion.

It's odd you took my post calling you out to not deter people showing an interest in the MPs/CF as a whole into this, but that's your choice I suppose. Perhaps you should be aware of what potential applicants may think when they see a 'Directing Staff' posting things in that nature. I don't think you'd appreciate me (or anyone) telling people to stay away from the RCMP and claiming I know everything about it, so why are you doing it with regards to the MP?

I don't know everything about the MPs, far from it. I offered my own particular observations and knowledge from some limited exposure, and a bit over a decade of CF service in which I've spoken with MPs on a number of occasions and seen them working operationally. And having previously been in the position of doing ride alongs, I offered my observation that ride alongs with the MPs will likely be quite dull, and that he would probably have more exposure to operational policing with a municipal force. At no point did I slag the MPs. You guys have a different role. Frankly I wish the CAF was better at using the MPs in a provost capacity. I have several buddies who have deployed in the close protection role, which is something your trade does pretty well. You guys certainly have some very interesting career opportunities that are difficult to access in a non-military police service. But a civilian ride along won't get to see any of that. A ride along with an MP Det on a base won't be seeing the field stuff, they'll see the MP equivalent to general duty policing. They would see the same with a municipal service, but with their time more efficiently exposing them to a variety of calls.

Please do not think for a second I have any scorn for the MP trade or its role. It's merely a different beast, but you guys are still badged and armed police officers and are part of the brotherhood. There are things you guys are good at and there are shortcomings, as with any military trade or police service. What I took issue with was you assumign that my presentation of facts meant I was trying to deter him from joinign the CAF or the MPs, nor that my entire knowledge of the trade came from a month and a half of ride alongs more than a decade ago. Those assumptions, and the backhanded slur at reservists, are where you stepped on toes.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 21:28:53 by Brihard »
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2016, 21:41:01 »
Are Reserve MPs badged and armed police officers?

They can be, majority are not as their mandate is field operations and not enforcement.
"The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.” ~General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC

Offline Habs

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2016, 21:43:51 »
An approximation. Your most recent post before this thread made mention that you were starting your MP QL3s in mid January, which at six months course duration for your 3s would have had you graduating in mid July. I may be off by a bit. Since you didn't join the reserves until the summer of 2012, and had your CT in within a year of that, I feel pretty safe with 'barely did anything'. That was purely in response to you smugly dropping the 'toon' card.

I don't know everything about the MPs, far from it. I offered my own particular observations and knowledge from some limited exposure, and a bit over a decade of CF service in which I've spoken with MPs on a number of occasions and seen them working operationally. And having previously been in the position of doing ride alongs, I offered my observation that ride alongs with the MPs will likely be quite dull, and that he would probably have more exposure to operational policing with a municipal force. At no point did I slag the MPs. You guys have a different role. Frankly I wish the CAF was better at using the MPs in a provost capacity. I have several buddies who have deployed in the close protection role, which is something your trade does pretty well. You guys certainly have some very interesting career opportunities that are difficult to access in a non-military police service. But a civilian ride along won't get to see any of that. A ride along with an MP Det on a base won't be seeing the field stuff, they'll see the MP equivalent to general duty policing. They would see the same with a municipal service, but with their time more efficiently exposing them to a variety of calls.

Please do not think for a second I have any scorn for the MP trade or its role. It's merely a different beast, but you guys are still badged and armed police officers and are part of the brotherhood. There are things you guys are good at and there are shortcomings, as with any military trade or police service. What I took issue with was you assumign that my presentation of facts meant I was trying to deter him from joinign the CAF or the MPs, nor that my entire knowledge of the trade came from a month and a half of ride alongs more than a decade ago. Those assumptions, and the backhanded slur at reservists, are where you stepped on toes.

(The course is not 6 months anymore, your information is out of date, which further proves my point) And your assumptions of my career/service/that I have "barely" done anything based solely upon my online footprint (which is minuscule, especially on this forum) is where you stepped on toes. How ignorant/hypocritical can you be? I can't bring myself to your level of pretentiousness, but it would be no different if I looked at some of your posts and told you that you are a 2-3 year RCMP Cst and how much could you have really done? I mean jeez man, you're not even first class yet are you? (And before you jump on the chance of my ignorance - that's the point. It's a reflection of yourself)   

While I appreciate you backpeddling and trying to save face, the fact remains you are speaking pretty boldly about something you have never had any first hand experience with, besides "a month and a half of ride alongs more than a decade ago".  (And I think you and I both know ride alongs don't show much. You said yourself that police are limiting to what ride alongs are exposed to). Saying "For the love of God no", and proceeding to say how incredibly boring the MP is, certainly is slagging, and certainly is going to deter people.

I'll go ahead and offer my own particular observations and knowledge of the RCMP from some limited exposure, speaking with Mounties on a number of occasions and seeing them work whenever someone asks me about going on a ride along with the RCMP, fair? But you can't really say anything when I do so, because that's exactly what you did.

We get enough people telling us how shitty we are, we don't need it from an ex CAF member and a fellow cop as well, especially in an area where people are expressing interest in joining.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 22:14:33 by Habs »

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2016, 21:50:44 »
Not exactly on topic but speaking of those high speed courses I've heard the MPs are actually having a difficult time filling slots on them
like CP.

Lunchmeat I wouldn't say there's a lot of hate going around.  I've always seen MPs as kind of doing the same thing NCOs do, maintaining discipline.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2016, 21:52:05 »
Quote from: Habs

We get enough people telling us how shitty we are
[/quote

Can't imagine why.
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Offline Habs

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2016, 21:58:57 »


Can't imagine why.


Dunno, dealing with people like yourself constantly probably makes us bitter.

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2016, 22:03:12 »
Not exactly on topic but speaking of those high speed courses I've heard the MPs are actually having a difficult time filling slots on them
like CP.

Lunchmeat I wouldn't say there's a lot of hate going around.  I've always seen MPs as kind of doing the same thing NCOs do, maintaining discipline.

Yes, but then again there's always been difficulty filling positions on CP, TASO, etc. Because of the requirements, CP is extremely physically demanding and it requires a lot of mental fortitude. Gone are the days of just being fit, you have to be fit and smart. Now that a lot of those specialty areas are MP exclusive it has reduced our ability to fill positions further, but those that were already qualified CP but were non-MP were allowed to stay and many were seconded to our regiments... Eventually they will rebadge.

You'd be surprised about the hate part. It's pretty widespread... And most of it is from instructors on junior level courses airing their old dirty laundry onto new recruits that have never even met an MP yet. Our relations with other branches and trades is improving slowly, but there's still a lot of work to do; part of that was the revamping of the MP training program and recruits screening not too long ago. People that are unable to use good judgement, abuse their positions and authority, and have bad attitudes don't last long in the MP trade anymore.

One day we will get where we want to be.

For example, I was attached to an infantry platoon on a brigade exercise, everyone crap on me. One guy was actually red in the face, blood vessels popping mad because I was an MP and he had to be around me. By the end of the Ex, the grunts actually appreciated me and we became a pretty good team, all except HULK there apologized for jumping on me for no reason and that they don't know what his problem was.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 22:21:42 by LunchMeat »
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2016, 22:13:54 »

Dunno, dealing with people like yourself constantly probably makes us bitter.

If you get triggered this bad from a couple posts I can only imagine how ramped up and in the black you become at work.  You're actually a perfect example of the "new MP yet jaded chip-on-the-shoulder" attitude people constantly roll their eyes at.  It's pretty clear to see you have a beef with the RCMP too. Please save us the melodrama.
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Offline Habs

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2016, 22:15:56 »
If you get triggered this bad from a couple posts I can only imagine how ramped up and in the black you become at work.  You're actually a perfect example of the "new MP yet jaded chip-on-the-shoulder" attitude people constantly roll their eyes at.  It's pretty clear to see you have a beef with the RCMP too. Please save us the melodrama.

Lol, what? You're the one who threw in the smug remark at me, from mine and Brihard's discussion.

And nope, a lot of my good friends (and some family) are in the RCMP. Nothing but respect for the guys. The only reason I am bringing up the RCMP is because Brihard is in the RCMP. If he was in the OPP, I would be bringing up them.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 22:25:59 by Habs »

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2016, 22:21:17 »
Yes, but then again there's always been difficulty filling positions on CP, TASO, etc. Because of the requirements, CP is extremely physically demanding and it requires a lot of mental fortitude. Gone are the days of just being fit, you have to be fit and smart. Now that a lot of those specialty areas are MP exclusive it has reduced our ability to fill positions further, but those that were already qualified CP but were non-MP were allowed to stay and many were seconded to our regiments... Eventually they will rebadge.

You'd be surprised about the hate part. It's pretty widespread... And most of it is from instructors on junior level courses airing their old dirty laundry onto new recruits that have never even met an MP yet. Our relations with other branches and trades is improving slowly, but there's still a lot of work to do; part of that was the revamping of the MP training program and recruits screening not too long ago. People that are unable to use good judgement, abuse their positions and authority, and have bad attitudes don't last long in the MP trade anymore.

One day we will get where we want to be

I heard the physical fitness was an issue with the CP too. It's unfortunate the MPs clawed back the CP positions (embassy security might be neat too) but I'm thinking maybe with all the tours supposedly coming up the MPs will have to open up the CP trade to combat arms again.

There's been a few threads/debates here on some of the issues that arise with MPs, yours was one of them as I recall (airing dirty laundry). Definitely an us vs them mentality at the school in Borden too.  It's genuinely good if you think the working relationship/attitude with other units is improving, you guys shouldn't feel like everyone is against you.  Except for the amount of shooting you get to do, you deserve grief for that. And the spec pay and the cool courses  ;)
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Offline Brihard

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2016, 22:39:07 »
(The course is not 6 months anymore, your information is out of date, which further proves my point) And your assumptions of my career/service/that I have "barely" done anything based solely upon my online footprint (which is minuscule, especially on this forum) is where you stepped on toes. How ignorant/hypocritical can you be? I can't bring myself to your level of pretentiousness, but it would be no different if I looked at some of your posts and told you that you are a 2-3 year RCMP Cst and how much could you have really done? I mean jeez man, you're not even first class yet are you? (And before you jump on the chance of my ignorance - that's the point. It's a reflection of yourself)   

While I appreciate you backpeddling and trying to save face, the fact remains you are speaking pretty boldly about something you have never had any first hand experience with, besides "a month and a half of ride alongs more than a decade ago".  (And I think you and I both know ride alongs don't show much. You said yourself that police are limiting to what ride alongs are exposed to). Saying "For the love of God no", and proceeding to say how incredibly boring the MP is, certainly is slagging, and certainly is going to deter people.

I'll go ahead and offer my own particular observations and knowledge of the RCMP from some limited exposure, speaking with Mounties on a number of occasions and seeing them work whenever someone asks me about going on a ride along with the RCMP, fair? But you can't really say anything when I do so, because that's exactly what you did.

We get enough people telling us how shitty we are, we don't need it from an ex CAF member and a fellow cop as well, especially in an area where people are expressing interest in joining.

Some fair points made. I was an ***, and I had no reason to be. I'll take this opportunity to offer you my apology. I could have expressed my opinions and experiences in a much more useful and respectful way than I did. I am sorry.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Habs

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2016, 22:49:45 »
Some fair points made. I was an ***, and I had no reason to be. I'll take this opportunity to offer you my apology. I could have expressed my opinions and experiences in a much more useful and respectful way than I did. I am sorry.

No worries man, I wasn't exactly cool about it all either. Hopefully we can all move on from this and let this thread get back on tracks.

Stay safe brother!

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2016, 22:56:12 »
I wasn't exactly cool about it all either.

I was a dick too,  thought your initial posts came off condescending.  Probably read too much into it.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 22:58:54 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline Brihard

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Re: MP Ride Along
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2016, 23:45:36 »
No worries man, I wasn't exactly cool about it all either. Hopefully we can all move on from this and let this thread get back on tracks.

Stay safe brother!

You too man. Cheers.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.