Author Topic: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF  (Read 46069 times)

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Offline Scott

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #200 on: January 07, 2018, 13:30:40 »
All of these anecdotes are fine, but what I actually want is the scientific/medical evidence on how marijuana users react in a military aviation environment. We have a tonne of research for alcohol usage and our rules do a pretty good job of governing its usage.

Which is why I don't bridge from sawing mitres to driving boats or turning wrenches on choppers.

We do not have much clearly defined as a way ahead in my job, either. Currently we work pretty much the same as you folks re: restrictions on party favors - expect we have no booze at sea. I do not see a change for us. "Safety sensitive" and all.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #201 on: January 07, 2018, 14:04:21 »
Quote
The effects of marijuana on human physical aggression.

Myerscough, Rodney Taylor, Stuart P.
Citation
Myerscough, R., & Taylor, S. P. (1985). The effects of marijuana on human physical aggression. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 49(6), 1541-1546.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.49.6.1541

Abstract
30 male undergraduates received intense provocation following their ingestion of a low dose (.1 mg/kg), a medium dose (.25 mg/kg), or a high dose (.4 mg/kg) of delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol. Each S was informed that he was competing in a reaction time (RT) task with another S in an adjoining room. At the beginning of each trial, he was told to select any 1 of 11 intensities of shock he wished his opponent to receive if his opponent lost the trial. If he lost, he would receive the shock his opponent had set for him. Regardless of who won, each S was able to see, following each trial, what level of shock his opponent had set for him. The frequency of wins and losses and the amount of shock received were programmed by the experimenter. Findings show that the Ss in the low-dose condition tended to respond in a more aggressive manner than the Ss in the moderate- and high-dose conditions. They set significantly higher shocks than Ss in the medium- and high-dose groups in a number of trials. Ss in the high-dose condition behaved in a relatively nonaggressive manner throughout the experimental session. Results support the consensus that marihuana does not instigate, precipitate, or enhance aggressive behavior. (20 ref) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)


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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #202 on: January 07, 2018, 14:09:36 »
Australian Transportation Safety Board 2004

Quote
Cannabis is a commonly used recreational drug, which has widespread effects within the body.
Smoking is the most common form of administration. The adverse effects of cannabis on
behaviour, cognitive function and psychomotor performance are dose-dependent and related to
task difficulty. Complex tasks such as driving or flying are particularly sensitive to the
performance impairing effects of cannabis. Chronic cannabis use is associated with a number of
adverse health effects, and there is evidence suggesting the development of tolerance to chronic
use as well as a well-defined withdrawal syndrome. There is also evidence that the residual
effects of cannabis can last up to 24 hours. Significantly, the modern dose of cannabis is much
more potent than in the past, when the majority of the research was conducted. As such, the
reported adverse health effects may well be conservative. Although only a limited number of
studies have examined the effects of cannabis on pilot performance, the results overall have been
consistent. Flying skills deteriorate, and the number of minor and major errors committed by
the pilot increase, while at the same time the pilot is often unaware of any performance
problems
. Cannabis use in a pilot is therefore a significant flight safety hazard
.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/36696/Cannabis_pilot_performance.pdf
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angus555

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #203 on: January 07, 2018, 14:30:38 »
And I agree 100%, which is my point.  If someone is impaired by alcolhol from givin' er the night before, I can, likely, still tell just by talking to them.  Weed?  Not so much, for me at least.

I've no doubt that someone is, and that worries me.  I hope it's the person making the flight feeding and not the Avn Tech fixing the plane I'll be in this week.

Within a few hours of either drinking or smoking a joint (in the critical time frame IMO), it's probably easier to tell that someone had smoked a joint. Especially if you get into an enclosed space with them.

It's not easy to hide.






Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #204 on: January 07, 2018, 16:03:18 »
Within a few hours of either drinking or smoking a joint (in the critical time frame IMO), it's probably easier to tell that someone had smoked a joint. Especially if you get into an enclosed space with them.

It's not easy to hide.

I get that.

What I want to know is, since THC is stored in fat, what happens a few days/weeks/months down the road when a stressful don't occurs (like combat or an aircraft emergency) and that THC laden fat gets released back into the blood stream. What happens? Something? Nothing?

I would also like to know what changes (if any) are happening to brain cognition functions over the long run and what (if any) effects there are in a high altitude (8000 ft cabin pressure, of higher) environment. No effect on blood oxygenation? Some? A lot?

angus555

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #205 on: January 07, 2018, 17:31:15 »
I get that.

What I want to know is, since THC is stored in fat, what happens a few days/weeks/months down the road when a stressful don't occurs (like combat or an aircraft emergency) and that THC laden fat gets released back into the blood stream. What happens? Something? Nothing?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24674455
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24018317

There's conflicting research on whether exercise or fasting can increase blood levels of THC. Even in the case where exercise has been found to temporarily increase THC in blood, it's more relevant for the purpose of drug testing rather than impairment.

Quote
I would also like to know what changes (if any) are happening to brain cognition functions over the long run and what (if any) effects there are in a high altitude (8000 ft cabin pressure, of higher) environment. No effect on blood oxygenation? Some? A lot?

At least for habitually smoking it (or smoking anything really), I wouldn't be surprised if pulmonary function went down the crapper.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #206 on: January 07, 2018, 17:36:24 »
If we treat it like alcohol then I wonder if members will be allowed to have some over lunch? Or at the men's Xmas dinner or after exercise smokers?  Sell it through the wainwright canteen after 6pm?
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #207 on: January 07, 2018, 17:49:17 »
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24674455
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24018317

There's conflicting research on whether exercise or fasting can increase blood levels of THC. Even in the case where exercise has been found to temporarily increase THC in blood, it's more relevant for the purpose of drug testing rather than impairment.

At least for habitually smoking it (or smoking anything really), I wouldn't be surprised if pulmonary function went down the crapper.

Focusing on the military aviation side...I know the allowable limit of alcohol for flying is zero.  None.  As soon as an aircrew member has a sip of alcohol, they are restricted from flying for 12 hours, that's in the orders black and white.

If exercise temporarily increases THC in the blood...then that's a problem.  Should we risk an airframe and crew (we can fly with 20 people on board, for example)?  What if that plane and crew slam into an urban area with heavy population...see where this can go quickly?  You'd be surprised at home much your heart rate goes up and the body reacts to airborne emergencies or flying over hostile areas.  What happens then...a small amount of THC is released?  Why would that be ok, but not a sip of alcohol?

IAW our flying orders, I am not supposed to self medicate on a weekend with Nyquil for a bad cold and then fly...or any medication with flying not approved by a Flight Surgeon, actually.  The Pharm O couldn't give me Imodium for preventative measures before leaving on a trip recently until the Flt Surgeon signed off on it.  It's taken pretty seriously in the flying community IMO.

For some very good reasons, I am personally hopeful we will maintain our 12 hours bottle to throttle rules and we will not have any 'XX hours toke to yoke' rules to deal with in the future.  If we do...like I said, might be time to find something else to do.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 18:23:17 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #208 on: January 07, 2018, 18:38:45 »
Focusing on the military aviation side...

IAW our flying orders, I am not supposed to self medicate on a weekend with Nyquil for a bad cold and then fly...or any medication with flying not approved by a Flight Surgeon, actually.

Fully aware that Transport Canada rules do not apply to military aviation, but the CF is not the only one who has to apply rules in the operation of flying machines and there is likely some consultation/coordination between the two authorities.  Therefore, what is the TC position.

From an article in November https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Transport-Canada-Reinforces-Pot-Ban-229907-1.html

Quote
Transport Canada is reminding pilots that while the rest of the country may be changing its attitude toward marijuana, it hasn’t relaxed its stance. On July 1, 2018, possession of small amounts of pot and its recreational use will be legal in Canada. Provinces are developing intoxication detection and enforcement standards for drivers caught impaired behind the wheel. TC officials told delegates to the Air Transport Association of Canada meeting last week that any amount of TCH, the psychoactive chemical in cannabis, found in a pilot’s bloodstream will result in immediate suspension of flight privileges and that will last until the TCH is flushed from his or her system. Unlike water-soluble ethanol, TCH attaches to body fat and can persist for varying periods of time at detectable levels after one exposure.  . . .

Of course, the detection of that miniscule residual of pot may be a problem, but are the typical aircrew such dirtbags that the expectation is there will be a widespread violation of flying orders when they include whatever new rules concerning recreational and medicinal cannabis use.  So if the CF adopts a similar position then it becomes a leadership issue (as it should be) and discussion as to number of hours "from toking pot to twirling prop" becomes moot and the problem of being aware which aircrew is using pot is no different than the current situation.
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #209 on: January 07, 2018, 18:45:28 »
I’ve been scanning this thread off and on and I think it’s important to bring forward another facet of the issue that I don’t think has been touched on yet. (If it has, apologies, I missed it.)

There have been significant scientific articles written on the causation between cannabis and psychiatric disorders, mainly bi-polar disorder and schizophrenia. While there’s no diffinitive evidence (yet) that frequent/prolonged usage of the drug concretely causes the  disorders, there IS evidence which supports that when genetic components are present, some users are prone to developing those psychiatric disorders and others. (As well, direct correlation has been proven that cannabis usage heavily exacerbates certain mental-health conditions.)

While there are varied environmental and genetic triggers to certain brain-chemical disorders, is it worth risking telling already regular users (some of whom we’ve already ascertained are serving) to have at’er?

Besides the studies available, I have also witnessed first-hand how marijuana negatively affects some mental-health issues. Is it the same for everyone? Absolutely not.

I simply think this is a situation which renders far more scrutiny and study before it becomes a free-for-all. Undoubtedly, people raise the argument of mentioning the countries where it’s been legal for many years. That’s all well and good. But some of those same countries also have medical articles available to the general public outlining mental-health issues attributed to incessant usage and will also state that more research is needed into the overall risk.

I’m not anti-pot. It’s personally not my thing—to each their own. But I do believe it’s fair to say that enough evidence hasn’t been gathered to support it being a ‘safe’ substance, or what criteria needs to be applied regarding its use.

A couple of articles ref mental-health & cannabis:

Cannabis and Schizophrenia: Trigger or Treatment?

http://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/schizophrenia-and-psychoses/cannabis-and-schizophrenia-trigger-or-treatment/article/399675/


Cannabis-Induced Bipolar Disorder with Psychotic Features: A case report

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2811144/
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angus555

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #210 on: January 07, 2018, 19:35:17 »
Focusing on the military aviation side...I know the allowable limit of alcohol for flying is zero.  None.  As soon as an aircrew member has a sip of alcohol, they are restricted from flying for 12 hours, that's in the orders black and white.

If exercise temporarily increases THC in the blood...then that's a problem.  Should we risk an airframe and crew (we can fly with 20 people on board, for example)?  What if that plane and crew slam into an urban area with heavy population...see where this can go quickly?  You'd be surprised at home much your heart rate goes up and the body reacts to airborne emergencies or flying over hostile areas.  What happens then...a small amount of THC is released?  Why would that be ok, but not a sip of alcohol?

IAW our flying orders, I am not supposed to self medicate on a weekend with Nyquil for a bad cold and then fly...or any medication with flying not approved by a Flight Surgeon, actually.  The Pharm O couldn't give me Imodium for preventative measures before leaving on a trip recently until the Flt Surgeon signed off on it.  It's taken pretty seriously in the flying community IMO.

For some very good reasons, I am personally hopeful we will maintain our 12 hours bottle to throttle rules and we will not have any 'XX hours toke to yoke' rules to deal with in the future.  If we do...like I said, might be time to find something else to do.

I definitely agree with you on the whole 'toke to yoke' can of worms.

The above posted Australian study on stoned simulator pilots was great information.
For a follow up study, I'm sure there's many more stoner/boozer pilots out there that would jump in the sim for a good competition with the Australians.  ;D

Aside from that, talking about small amounts of THC reminded me of our natural endocannabinoid system, which is activated by cannabis use.
Turns out that exercise and stress activate the endocannabinoid system too, which is thought to be responsible for the high that people get from exercise.

https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/16/phys-ed-what-really-causes-runners-high/



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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #211 on: February 26, 2018, 20:37:24 »

Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #212 on: February 26, 2018, 22:36:15 »
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/vance-stoned-soldiers-1.4553011

The latest on electric lettuce and the CAF.
The ideas being bandied about by the CDS seem reasonable.


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Offline Will M

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #213 on: March 06, 2018, 10:03:56 »
pilots are not supposed to drink X hours before flying too but they do it.  Controlling the pot issue will be of concern, who wants someone high working with them on heavy equipment, stuff that can injure or kill you if your mind isn't there.
There is no necessity for using pot except for some forms of pain management.  I don't think it's a good idea for the CF to allow its use for their personnel.
Unless you want Trudeau directly controlling the military just imagine what it would look like eh? I would guess a non functioning military.

Offline recceguy

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #214 on: March 06, 2018, 11:52:41 »
pilots are not supposed to drink X hours before flying too but they do it.  Controlling the pot issue will be of concern, who wants someone high working with them on heavy equipment, stuff that can injure or kill you if your mind isn't there.
There is no necessity for using pot except for some forms of pain management.  I don't think it's a good idea for the CF to allow its use for their personnel.
Unless you want Trudeau directly controlling the military just imagine what it would look like eh? I would guess a non functioning military.

Not looking for a fight, just some clarification.

Are you stating, that you have witnessed CAF pilots flying under the influence?

Could you point me to your peer study review of your research into the medical effects of cannabis? I've seen and heard lots from others. Much conflicting. I'd like to read your professional opinion.

Cheers.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #215 on: March 06, 2018, 12:10:03 »
Unless you want Trudeau directly controlling the military just imagine what it would look like eh? I would guess a non functioning military.

 ;D   Trudeau v 2.0 is following in the footsteps of Trudeau v 1.0.  Off topic, but perhaps you should do some reading on PET and make some comparisons with today's version. 

Now I return you back to Cannabis.
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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #216 on: March 06, 2018, 12:49:59 »
Not looking for a fight, just some clarification.

Are you stating, that you have witnessed CAF pilots flying under the influence?

Could you point me to your peer study review of your research into the medical effects of cannabis? I've seen and heard lots from others. Much conflicting. I'd like to read your professional opinion.

Cheers.

Yeah, as a former pilot myself, I found that statement pretty insulting.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #217 on: March 07, 2018, 16:42:08 »
C'mon Will, you were here this afternoon, how about our questions? Do we get answers? I'm looking for some weekend reading and your your medical studies would be good reading.

I'm not in anymore, but I worked a flight line for a few years. I never saw a CAF pilot under the influence, that I could tell, and was just wondering where, when and what kind of aircraft you saw being flown by someone under the influence?

I do have things this weekend though, so if I don't get your study or hear from you before then, that's OK.

Cheers.
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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #218 on: March 21, 2018, 15:27:46 »
I can see the future of roadside checks by the Military Police in the not too far distant future.

https://youtu.be/2PLC_cBJwk4

Offline mariomike

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #219 on: April 09, 2018, 08:10:01 »
Adding for reference to the discussion.

People smoking marijuana who have bouts of pain and vomiting can cure it ...by not smoking marijuana.

QUOTE

April 5, 2018

The New York Times
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/04/05/well/a-perplexing-marijuana-side-effect-relieved-by-hot-showers.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

END QUOTE




Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #220 on: April 09, 2018, 08:40:22 »
Adding for reference to the discussion.

People smoking marijuana who have bouts of pain and vomiting can cure it ...by not smoking marijuana.

QUOTE

April 5, 2018

The New York Times
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/04/05/well/a-perplexing-marijuana-side-effect-relieved-by-hot-showers.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

END QUOTE

Don't you know that's a myth perpetuated by big pharma. ;)
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #221 on: April 09, 2018, 08:54:17 »
Don't you know that's a myth perpetuated by big pharma. ;)

I just know what I read in the papers. That's an alibi for my ignorance.  :)

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #222 on: April 09, 2018, 09:07:01 »
I just know what I read in the papers. That's an alibi for my ignorance.  :)


Would that be the High Times or the New York Times ;D
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #223 on: April 09, 2018, 20:44:52 »
Cannabis Hyperemmesis Syndrome has been described in the literature since 1974. This is not a new phenomenon. The new thing is the frequency with which it turns up in the ER.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #224 on: April 09, 2018, 22:51:30 »
Kids today are allergic to everything. ;D

Given the amount of people that partake and the amount of people that present with symtoms, that is a hugely large gap. All kinds of people have unexpected reactions to all kinds of things. Some people get reactions from food or drink or nature.

Cannabis Hyperemmesis Syndrome is well known in the community. Take a hot shower.


« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 23:32:38 by recceguy »
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