Author Topic: Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread  (Read 32490 times)

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Offline medicineman

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2017, 12:29:28 »
There is a chance that he may not agree with all or part of this, but has to sell it to the troops anyway.

After some of the PT stuff I was witness to in 2RCR, I'm sort of wondering if either the Minister or PET Jr himself told him "this is how we want our military to LOOK to Canadians...we're not really interested in whether it works or is even capable, just the LCF".

 :2c:

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Offline Furniture

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2017, 14:03:43 »
The cons of this whole plan I will refer to as •the double standard plan• outweigh the pros.

We will have a very politically correct and even less capable force.  Quotas like this 1 in 4 must be women makes me want to kick someone in the nads.

We already have a double standard when it comes to single and married/common law members when it comes to postings and deployments. Adding a third tier almost ensures that any single fit members will spend their time moving and deploying even more, so that all the people with special requirements are taken care of.

Maybe they'll find the perfect solution that works for everybody, but I doubt it... The current system is broken, adding more complexity sure won't fix it.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2017, 14:54:39 »
Excerpt from DAOD 5023-0, Universality of Service

2.1 The mission of the DND and the CAF is to defend Canada, its interests and its values, while contributing to international peace and security.

You know what is funny here? Make the change I put in yellow and you have the primary statement that should have been the starting point of the allegedly extensive defence policy review that just came out, but does not really include it that clearly anywhere. (I say strike "values" for two reasons: first of all it is not a national defence function to advance "values" by force in other countries. Second I am not willing to give my life to go and fight to advance women's equality issues in say, Bangladesh, or defend multiculturalism in Indonesia, etc. etc., and I don't think any one in the CAF is willing either - those are things that are done softly through diplomacy over long periods.)

Offline Ostrozac

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2017, 16:02:19 »
We already have a double standard when it comes to single and married/common law members when it comes to postings and deployments. Adding a third tier almost ensures that any single fit members will spend their time moving and deploying even more, so that all the people with special requirements are taken care of.

Maybe they'll f ind the perfect solution that works for everybody, but I doubt it... The current system is broken, adding more complexity sure won't fix it.

There are people who enjoy a higher than usual op-tempo -- and allowing them to self-select for more deployments sounds good on the surface, but you are spot on correct that extra layers of complexity will be an absolute beast to manage. In theory, it could be done -- but I think we could do a much better job of using our existing tools. Our Career Managers, Corps/Branch Directors and often even Chains of Command have an uneven approach to knowing their troops and what they actually want. Career Manager interviews were a simple enough thing -- they are largely gone, and have been replaced by... not much in the last few units I've been in.

But then again, if our current system simply isn't retaining people at all, then we need to change something. But I'm not sure that re-arming the injured and re-enrolling our retired on Class B is a long-term solution -- it'll keep the numbers up in the short term, but we need to ask more fundamental questions as to why the Canadian Forces isn't attracting/retaining new members. And maybe talking to the troops is a start.

Offline meni0n

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2017, 16:36:00 »
No deployments and a stable work environment (no postings) is mostly aimed at the cyber trade I guess. Although, the only posting for cyber is currently only Ottawa and will probably remain that way The thinking is, how do you attract someone with a specialised skill set to a standard pay group trade and then keep them after they've had all their training. Imagine investing a lot of money training someone with very specific expensive courses and then a company will come along and offer 20-40k more. That trade will need to have some something at least to offset that. The only thing I guess they can offer now is no deployments, postings and an early pension. The pay will definitely not be competitive.

I've also heard the idea of running special BMQ or leadership courses just for people in that trade. Making those courses easier and with less or no field time. Not sure if that will pan out but it would make sense with the approach that's being taken.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2017, 16:52:52 »
lol

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Offline MCG

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2017, 17:10:52 »
There is a chance that he may not agree with all or part of this, but has to sell it to the troops anyway.
All the more likely given that it seems to be a trend across multiple government departments: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/canadas-war-against-merit-marches-on/article35261591/
Quote
Liberals' reverse discrimination comes at a cost 
Margaret Wente
The Globe and Mail
Published Saturday, Jun. 10, 2017 8:00AM EDT
Updated Saturday, Jun. 10, 2017 8:15AM EDT


Kirsty Duncan, Justin Trudeau’s Science Minister, is on the rampage against Canada’s leading universities. She’s told them to improve diversity – or else. Unless they meet their gender quotas for new research chairs, the federal government will yank their funding. Despite a decade of concerted hectoring, Canada’s most prestigious researchers are still too non-Indigenous, too white, too abled and, especially, too male. “Frankly, our country cannot reach its full potential if more than half of its people do not feel welcomed into the lab where their ideas, their talent and their ambition is needed,” she sermonized.
 
At stake is hundreds of millions in grant money – as well as the ability of expert hiring committees to make their own decisions. (Universities must sponsor the grant applications, which are nearly all approved by the federal funding bodies.) From now on, these committees will be overseen by phalanxes of bureaucrats whose job is to ensure that they come up with the right answers.

The government’s emphasis on equity and diversity is central to its branding. Its 50-50 cabinet has won universal praise. But now it has embarked on a campaign of reverse discrimination that deeply undermines the concepts of fairness and excellence.

Academia isn’t the only target. Since last fall, the Trudeau government has named 56 judges, of whom 33 – or 59 per cent – are women. (Women made up only 42 per cent of the applicants.) It’s clear the Liberals will keep it up until the balance of judges is more to their liking. But at what cost? “In the old days, it was offensive that people got judgeships just because they were Liberals or Tories,” Ian Holloway, law dean at the University of Calgary, told The Globe and Mail. “That helped breed contempt for the judiciary. What we don’t want to do is replicate that in a different form.”

The definition of equality has changed dramatically in recent times. Equality used to mean fairness. It meant that everybody should be treated equally, and that discrimination is not acceptable. But the new definition of equality is equal outcomes. And if outcomes aren’t equal, they must be adjusted until they are.

No one disagrees that our institutions should broadly reflect the society we live in. No one disagrees that disadvantaged people and underrepresented groups deserve a helping hand, and sometimes preferential treatment. Many businesses and public institutions have an unwritten rule: If all else is equal, hire the minority candidate.

But what if it isn’t? What if fair hiring practices produce disparities in outcome – as they inevitably do? For example, it’s mainly men who like hard sciences – despite a generation of effort to encourage women. This effort has borne fruit. But it has not produced a massive change in women’s career choices, which are overwhelmingly on the “soft” side. There’s also a sizable body of research showing that even women who are highly career-minded are less intent on attaining senior positions than men are.

On the face of it, the Canada Research Chair numbers don’t look great. Women hold only 30 per cent of the 1,615 filled positions, a number that Ms. Duncan regards as “dismal,” and at some universities it’s much lower. Among the new applications, she notes disapprovingly that twice as many come from men. But these positions are heavily skewed toward hard sciences. Forty-five per cent are for natural sciences and engineering; 35 per cent are for health sciences; and just 20 per cent are for the social sciences and humanities.

But “fair” is no longer good enough. Only outcomes matter. The new quotas for Canada Research Chairs are: 31 per cent women, 15 per cent visible minorities, 4 per cent disabled, 1 per cent aboriginal. And woe to you if you do not comply.

Other institutions have gone much farther. At St. Michael’s Hospital in Toronto, a document called Gender Equity Guidelines for Research Search Committees states, “We are hoping to achieve recruitment of 50 per cent female scientists in the next 3-5 years, as well as to achieve 50 per cent female faculty in leadership positions in the next 5-7 years.” Given the natural gender imbalance in science research, they might as well just post a sign saying: Men, don’t bother! The document further states that all search committee members must take training in unconscious bias (an increasingly discredited idea), and that their work will be closely scrutinized by the diversity police to ensure the proper outcomes.

I’m all for diversity. But these future researchers have important work to do. They could save lives. Don’t we want people who can research and teach, instead of prove how diverse we are? I guess not. We’ve got quotas to fill.


Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2017, 17:45:19 »
All the more likely given that it seems to be a trend across multiple government departments: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/canadas-war-against-merit-marches-on/article35261591/

This is one thing I don't get. If you look at the average university, engineering is hugely skewed towards men.  Even with all the emphasis on STEM in school, scholarships for women in science etc your average nerd is a guy.  Same thing for most trades.  If the required prerequisite training is predominantly male, why is anyone expecting the CAF to be some kind of social experiment and arbitrarily set quotas that don't reflect reality.  Conversely, something like nurses where most of them are female, I would kind of expect the CAF numbers to be heavily skewed towards females.

One good reason though to hire the cyber warriors as military (vice civilian) is cost.  The specialized skillsets pay way more on the civie side, but some people will stick with it when the recruiters come calling because of the uniform and the team.  They won't have the same commitment as a civilian because there isn't any kind of indoctrination where they sell you the koolaid.  Aside from them, there are lots of other people that I don't think you'd want to ever touch a rifle, but would be excellent at their job.  It'd be nice to have options for the to contribute but maybe not be promotable past a working rank if something like that came up.

Offline Simian Turner

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2017, 18:29:32 »
You know what is funny here? Make the change I put in yellow and you have the primary statement that should have been the starting point of the allegedly extensive defence policy review that just came out, but does not really include it that clearly anywhere. (I say strike "values" for two reasons: first of all it is not a national defence function to advance "values" by force in other countries. Second I am not willing to give my life to go and fight to advance women's equality issues in say, Bangladesh, or defend multiculturalism in Indonesia, etc. etc., and I don't think any one in the CAF is willing either - those are things that are done softly through diplomacy over long periods.)

Oldgateboatdriver,

The statement you wish to modify states "to defend Canada, its interests and its values", not advance or enforce our values on others or other countries.  If we strike - defend our own values, then CAF will only defend Canada and our interests and in doing so are you proposing that we should withdraw from most of our international alliances.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 18:33:16 by Simian Turner »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2017, 20:51:36 »
that is...magical.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2017, 21:12:52 »
While we're at it half the military should be female, up to and including forcing males to get out.  Or maybe 1/3 male female and transgender.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 21:24:46 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2017, 21:28:48 »
While we're at it half the military should be female, up to and including forcing males to get out.  Or maybe 1/3 male female and transgender.

Seems like a good ol 5d or 5f would be a nice parting gift.   ;D
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2017, 21:33:20 »
I honestly think that exceptions to UofS is NOT a bad thing.  We invest sometimes millions of dollars into an individual only to release that individual on the basis that he may not deploy (sometimes even that is ambiguous). There are positions that will never deploy, at least not in the conditions most infantrymen would.  Making exceptions and restrictions on deployments/postings/advancement could work.  In a military where we are chronically short on people, it is at least something we ought to entertain.

Offline Brihard

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2017, 21:54:46 »
This thread has taken some odd drifts... Are we all going to suddenly act like we don't know a bunch of cases of people who were really solid soldiers, got injured/ill to the point of some sort of long term disability that would preclude them from deploying in a combat arms capacity, but who nonetheless have a lot of subject matter knowledge that is worth preserving in the training, planning, or administrative worlds? Absolutely we do need to keep an operationally focused military. We need to be able to send task forces out the door to kick *** and take names, but a lot of people are behind that effort at home. We sometimes are ill-served by our haste to remove people from service who breach UoS when they still have a lot to potentially contribute. Perhaps there would be other ways to administer of employees, such as a civilian instructor/civilian administrator category of employee for the medically invalided, if people really insist on getting these folks out of uniform?
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2017, 22:04:13 »
The current system provides for retention of a limited number of personnel for a limited amount of time.  Is that inadequate?  How far can we go before we risk (a) severe impact on operational outputs and (b) losing U of S entirely in a tribunal or court?

Perhaps we need to understand the status quo before we propose any radical change.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2017, 22:32:08 »
It was Clover's voice. She neighed again, and all the animals broke into a gallop and rushed into the yard. Then they saw what Clover had seen.

It was a pig walking on his hind legs.

Yes, it was Squealer. A little awkwardly, as though not quite used to supporting his considerable bulk in that position, but with perfect balance, he was strolling across the yard. And a moment later, out from the door of the farmhouse came a long file of pigs, all walking on their hind legs. Some did it better than others, one or two were even a trifle unsteady and looked as though they would have liked the support of a stick, but every one of them made his way right round the yard successfully. And finally there was a tremendous baying of dogs and a shrill crowing from the black cockerel, and out came Napoleon himself, majestically upright, casting haughty glances from side to side, and with his dogs gambolling round him.

He carried a whip in his trotter.

There was a deadly silence. Amazed, terrified, huddling together, the animals watched the long line of pigs march slowly round the yard. It was as though the world had turned upside-down. Then there came a moment when the first shock had worn off and when, in spite of everything-in spite of their terror of the dogs, and of the habit, developed through long years, of never complaining, never criticising, no matter what happened-they might have uttered some word of protest. But just at that moment, as though at a signal, all the sheep burst out into a tremendous bleating of-

"Four legs good, two legs better! Four legs good, two legs better! Four legs good, two legs better!"

It went on for five minutes without stopping. And by the time the sheep had quieted down, the chance to utter any protest had passed, for the pigs had marched back into the farmhouse.

Benjamin felt a nose nuzzling at his shoulder. He looked round. It was Clover. Her old eyes looked dimmer than ever. Without saying anything, she tugged gently at his mane and led him round to the end of the big barn, where the Seven Commandments were written. For a minute or two they stood gazing at the tatted wall with its white lettering.

"My sight is failing," she said finally. "Even when I was young I could not have read what was written there. But it appears to me that that wall looks different. Are the Seven Commandments the same as they used to be, Benjamin?"

For once Benjamin consented to break his rule, and he read out to her what was written on the wall. There was nothing there now except a single Commandment. It ran:

ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS

After that it did not seem strange when next day the pigs who were supervising the work of the farm all carried whips in their trotters. It did not seem strange to learn that the pigs had bought themselves a wireless set, were arranging to install a telephone, and had taken out subscriptions to John Bull, TitBits, and the Daily Mirror. It did not seem strange when Napoleon was seen strolling in the farmhouse garden with a pipe in his mouth-no, not even when the pigs took Mr. Jones's clothes out of the wardrobes and put them on, Napoleon himself appearing in a black coat, ratcatcher breeches, and leather leggings, while his favourite sow appeared in the watered silk dress which Mrs. Jones had been used to wear on Sundays.

http://www.george-orwell.org/Animal_Farm/9.html
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2017, 22:38:57 »
No deployments and a stable work environment (no postings) is mostly aimed at the cyber trade I guess. Although, the only posting for cyber is currently only Ottawa and will probably remain that way The thinking is, how do you attract someone with a specialised skill set to a standard pay group trade and then keep them after they've had all their training. Imagine investing a lot of money training someone with very specific expensive courses and then a company will come along and offer 20-40k more. That trade will need to have some something at least to offset that. The only thing I guess they can offer now is no deployments, postings and an early pension. The pay will definitely not be competitive.

You've heard of a trade called PILOT before I assume?  Cyber Warriors, despite how they feel, aren't going to be that special...no more special than any other SME in their trade.  I know guys who were CRIPT team members long before the Cyber Op MOSID was announced, and they can't cast spells and make magic potions...they're just good at what they're trained at.  Same as I am, and the next guy/gal/non-binary organism.

Quote
I've also heard the idea of running special BMQ or leadership courses just for people in that trade. Making those courses easier and with less or no field time. Not sure if that will pan out but it would make sense with the approach that's being taken the way things are going all mamby-pamby in the CAF.

I guess the *final FTX* would be a weekend COD marathon?   >:D

 ;D
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2017, 22:47:01 »
It's the CAF so first order of business is always dress and deportment.  Clearly we won't be able to fully leverage our cyber capabilities without a new set of Cyber "wings"

First, an element-specific "operational dress" t-shirt and cargo shorts, liberally dusted with Cheetos and/or Doritos stains   :nod:
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Offline GAP

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2017, 22:58:15 »
This thread has taken some odd drifts... Are we all going to suddenly act like we don't know a bunch of cases of people who were really solid soldiers, got injured/ill to the point of some sort of long term disability that would preclude them from deploying in a combat arms capacity, but who nonetheless have a lot of subject matter knowledge that is worth preserving in the training, planning, or administrative worlds? Absolutely we do need to keep an operationally focused military. We need to be able to send task forces out the door to kick *** and take names, but a lot of people are behind that effort at home. We sometimes are ill-served by our haste to remove people from service who breach UoS when they still have a lot to potentially contribute. Perhaps there would be other ways to administer of employees, such as a civilian instructor/civilian administrator category of employee for the medically invalided, if people really insist on getting these folks out of uniform?

 :goodpost:   excellent actually....
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Offline meni0n

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2017, 23:02:56 »
I have heard of Pilots, but then again there won't be any 9 year entry contracts for NCMs. Also, do you really want to tell me that every pilot can get a 80-100k job offered to him after a few years in the CF? Cyber/IT security is a very specialised field and requires specific kind of people. There's a very limited supply and you have to really stand out to attract the people you want.

It's not the same mentality of taking joe off the street and giving him the training and lo and behold he will be a competent cyber operator. Also, you're not only competing with the private sector out there, there are certain Government agencies that are on a hiring spree for these kind of positions and they're offering really attractive compensation. And even they have problems retaining people and losing them to the private sector. The CF will need every competent body to get this trade off the ground, otherwise it will just fail miserably.

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2017, 00:23:26 »
...or the CAF just plans for a transitory force of "just smart-enough/experienced-enough" people to feed, as you say, the "very specialized field" with the "specific kind of people."  They get too smart/experienced?  They move one...if it is more money and no longer wearing a uniform that does it for them.  Cycle-of-life.  Was this for other 'special kind(s) of people' and will for ever be thus.  Just one more group of special people in the mix...just as special as the other special people.

:2c:

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Offline Bearpaw

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Re: Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2017, 01:05:27 »
Re: Cyber Ops

I do not think this is a good path for the CAF---Cyber Ops,.... should be delegated to the CSE as he kind of people and disciplines needed are not easily moulded in a military pattern.

Bearpaw

Offline Furniture

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2017, 04:38:54 »
This thread has taken some odd drifts... Are we all going to suddenly act like we don't know a bunch of cases of people who were really solid soldiers, got injured/ill to the point of some sort of long term disability that would preclude them from deploying in a combat arms capacity, but who nonetheless have a lot of subject matter knowledge that is worth preserving in the training, planning, or administrative worlds? Absolutely we do need to keep an operationally focused military. We need to be able to send task forces out the door to kick *** and take names, but a lot of people are behind that effort at home. We sometimes are ill-served by our haste to remove people from service who breach UoS when they still have a lot to potentially contribute. Perhaps there would be other ways to administer of employees, such as a civilian instructor/civilian administrator category of employee for the medically invalided, if people really insist on getting these folks out of uniform?

The suggestion of making a new class of Reg force for injured members who no longer meet UoS due to military related injuries seems like a good idea to me, but that was only one of the possibilities suggested in the article. There had been options for people to remuster into trades that don't have the same physical requirements. When I joined my trade it seemed half were remusters no longer medically fit to be combat arms, but they could sail, work on airfields around the world, etc...

Each trade has a limited number of people, take a small trade and start making special cases of it's members and soon you're left with an even smaller trade of effective people that you will burn out in short order.


Offline Beadwindow 7

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Re: Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2017, 07:49:16 »
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2017, 08:42:00 »
I have heard of Pilots, but then again there won't be any 9 year entry contracts for NCMs.

Why not?  My trade has a VIE 7.  They could decide they're not getting a return on investment and change it to 9.  It  used to be 3, then 5 and now its VIE 7. 

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Also, do you really want to tell me that every pilot can get a 80-100k job offered to him after a few years in the CF? Cyber/IT security is a very specialised field and requires specific kind of people. There's a very limited supply and you have to really stand out to attract the people you want.

So is flying one of these:  (if you've never been around/beside an A380...they're bloody massive aircraft)



And yup, I had a Skipper who flew for the CAF for a few years and then went across the pond to fly those metal clouds for 6 figures a year and a LOT of side benefits/pampering.

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It's not the same mentality of taking joe off the street and giving him the training and lo and behold he will be a competent cyber operator. Also, you're not only competing with the private sector out there, there are certain Government agencies that are on a hiring spree for these kind of positions and they're offering really attractive compensation. And even they have problems retaining people and losing them to the private sector. The CF will need every competent body to get this trade off the ground, otherwise it will just fail miserably.

So, basically what you're saying is that Cyber Ops will be the cream of the crop of any/all MOSIDS and boy oh boy, we had better give them the stuff they ask for or else.  Here's a news flash...EVERY trade is the same.  You can't take Joe off the street in my trade and voila, you have a competent sensor operator.  You're looking at 4 to 5 years to get someone off the street to Advanced Category in my trade and then they still are just starting their first gig as a Crew Lead AES Op.  Infantry...how long to make someone a competent Sect 2 I/C or Sect Comdr??  POINT - don't get on the Cyber Op high-horse before the trade is even in existence in some form of operational capability.

I said before, I knew (and worked with) some CRIPT types long before Cyber Op was even on the table.  I get it, but the same can be said for a lot of trades.  There are opportunities for my trade to go civie, work 6 months a year and make 6 figures doing payload operator type jobs.  Cyber isn't the only battlespace and no more special than the kinetic battlespace operators.

Some of the stuff being discussed in the thread is ridiculous.  *Cyber should be able to get a pension sooner than other people* comes to mind first. 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 09:02:02 by Eye In The Sky »
Pilot, RADAR...turn right, heading...3-6-5...