Author Topic: Single mom now facing medical release from military  (Read 19091 times)

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Offline Nudibranch

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2017, 08:07:15 »
Did you miss the last decade?  There ain't no rear areas.

Did you miss reality? There are a lot areas that don't deploy at the rate that the Navy does - I've had 2.5 deployments  in 8 years, and if anything I actively seek to go.

Offline Remius

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2017, 08:56:30 »
Did you miss reality? There are a lot areas that don't deploy at the rate that the Navy does -

public service?
Optio

Offline Lightguns

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2017, 09:16:20 »
public service?

That likely would have been the best place, putting your deployment problems in the log br only makes things tougher for the now fewer deployable people in the log br.  The same goes for any other branch or corps, no trade should be a dumping ground. 
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2017, 09:17:13 »
Did you miss the last decade?  There ain't no rear areas.
Ah, well that explains the CADPAT with well-worn butts in Ottawa.    :nod:
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Offline Lightguns

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2017, 11:00:05 »
Ah, well that explains the CADPAT with well-worn butts in Ottawa.    :nod:

Perhaps, and, heading down a rat hole, but I also recall a casualty within the line of sight of those well worn butts.  CADPAT, well worn or new makes you a target right here at home, in this current international struggle.  I concur with you and can recall an RCAF signals officer who arrived as a 2Lt and retired LCol having worked nowhere in the CF but 101 Colonel By Drive, that's a failure of command.  Again, though, there is little room on the "purple" trades for accommodating desk riders who cannot be employed operationally because of their own personal circumstances, it leaves the rest more over tasked, more stress and creates additional family stress for those who serve unconditionally. 
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Offline gryphonv

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2017, 11:22:17 »
Just a thought, and its a bit off the topic.

But would it be feasible of having a support tier (maybe new reservist class) that is never asked to deploy, but still technically be military) Maybe like a National Guard. . This could help limit the public service component, give an easier way to transition permanently broken troops without having to medical them out of the system (not all people on medical want to leave).

I know reservist only deploy if they volunteer (under current rules). But I feel we currently have way too many intelligent people with great skills, lose their job and be sent away because they became broken in some way, or can't meet some part of universality of service.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 11:25:37 by gryphonv »

Offline Nudibranch

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2017, 11:30:55 »
I know reservist only deploy if they volunteer (under current rules). But I feel we currently have way too many intelligent people with great skills, lose their job and be sent away because they became broken in some way.

I think a long (even very long) period of accommodation for those trained useful people should be considered, for as long as they can work within their MELs. So they could stay employed within RegF on accommodation, without actually erasing the Universality of Service line in the sand (which IMO it would be a disaster to relax).

Untrained assets and people who are too ill to work effectively, or those the CAF doesn’t need, would be released within the usual timeline.

We do have an accommodation period for those on release PCATs currently but it tops out at 3 yrs I think.

Offline gryphonv

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2017, 11:34:17 »

We do have an accommodation period for those on release PCATs currently but it tops out at 3 yrs I think.

Yeah when I was released it was 3 years, but you had to ask for it, and it wasn't guaranteed. It could be denied or approved for any number of reasons, not always making sense.

Offline CountDC

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2017, 13:43:53 »
Accommodation can be done but does have to be carefully managed.  If too many are done then you end up deploying the same people and eventually they will burn out and become accommodation cases so eventually you have no one left to deploy.

VOT to log would have required her to go to Borden for trade training so she would have had the same issue thus not a complete solution. For some "I  am a single parent" has become a mantra to mean I shouldn't be sent anywhere or made to work hours I don't want to.

As far as the child goes - many single parents in the military are dealing and have been for years. 

Assistance is available and was at the time.

Ref: CBI 209.335 Family Care Assistance (effective Jun 2003)

FCA is designed to help offset child and family care costs incurred by the CF member in excess of those costs paid during normal working hours. FCA is a non-taxable benefit, which is limited to single members and service couples. 

Seems to me there is more to this story than we are getting out of the article.
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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2017, 18:00:07 »
This is a shitty situation, and I feel bad for her, but she was in a hard sea trade and didn't have a family care plan that would have allowed her to even reach her basic qual.  That can take several years with a lot of time away for MARS.  VOT may have been an option, but for the doctor to not sign off on it, there was probably a pretty significant reason.

I've had a few sailors that have gotten out due to similar changes in their family situation.  You can accommodate them up to a certain point when they are trained and can go for instructor positions etc, but you can't run the same people into the ground all the time with all the sea time and get larger retention problems (which we already have for a lot of trades).

It's unfortunate, but the life isn't for everyone, and not everyone can be accommodated indefinitely.  I'm sure there is more to the story, so won't comment either way.  Hopefully in the long run this works out for her for the better; it sounds like she was probably going to great lengths to try and make it happen and that must have been a huge amount of extra stress.

Offline Strike

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2017, 10:07:04 »
This is why I come here.  This has to be the most varied and well thought out replies to this article I've seen online thus far.

Here's my take:

1.  We have to be careful to use the whole "I was able to manage so she should be able to" BS.  Or any variation thereof. ("I know lots of people that make it work.")  You know what?  I know lots of people that make their marriages work, or can co-parent with their Ex, or get along with their Ex or whatever.  But I don't discount anyone who is having relationship issues or going through a bad divorce because of it.  Because everyone brings something different to the mix and everyone's issues are unique.

2.  Unfortunately (and I say this with all due respect to the Navy, especially as I have a family member who is there) the MARS/MARE training system is messed up.  When I read this article my first thought was "Not again."  I have a colleague who went through a similar issue - not a single parent thing, but just being treated like crap when her training wasn't going well and she tried transferring to a trade better suited to her.  It resulted in an HRC where it was found that many of her documents had been destroyed or altered for no other reason than to keep her from transferring to another trade that had been very proactive in trying to help her.  I have another who also had a huge uphill battle to remuster to AERE because, again, when her training on the Navy side wasn't going well, she tried to be proactive and find something better suited.  She was still under obligatory service and didn't want to spend her remaining time as a make-work project when she could get qualified somewhere else and be useful.

Don't forget - she wasn't pregnant when she started training.  She also didn't expect to have to raise her child alone.  We can easily bring up that her parents should still be able to take care of her son when she's away, but they also still work full time and he's now school age.  Let's also examine the timeline:
9 months on shore while pregnant;
A year off for MATA/PATA; (1 yr, 9 m)
At least another 6 months on shore after returning while waiting for her paperwork to come through taking her off TCAT; (2 yr, 3 m)
6 months everything is good (it's an assumption - 2 yr, 6 m)
6 months trying to deal with the split (another assumption based on the article stating that her relationship fell apart after 2 years - 2 yr, 9 m)

Let's include training delays trying to fit her into a course, time off due to MH reasons (because I'm sure anyone who has ever split with someone, especially when they have a small child, would agree that it takes a huge mental toll), and right there you're probably talking at least 3.5-4 yrs without being in a fixed training stream.

If she's ROTP and paid back her pension after her MATA/PATA and she's quickly coming to the end of her obligatory service.  So it would be easier, administratively, for the Navy to let her bleed off her time than to try and get her into a new trade.  Looking at her initial timeline in the article, she likely joined as DEO, but just thought it might be something else to think about.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2017, 11:57:42 »
Did you miss the last decade?  There ain't no rear areas.

Especially on a warship, or in a jet, or behind a bayonet, or something like that.

Which is why we've probably sold a couple of generations of people a bill of goods by claiming that you can have a well balanced work/ family life while training to fight and win modern wars. This is largely BS, of course.

This woman is likely a victim of fraud of the highest order, I would argue, perpetrated by a couple of decades worth of various kinds of civilian, and civilianized, managers of a military that is trying to be one thing to its civilian population, and quite another to the increasingly dizzy array of modern, well equipped, cunning and wholly ruthless adversaries we face around the globe.

'Charlie's idea of R&R was a little rat meat mixed into his rice'... indeed. We would do well to remind ourselves of that from time to time or the ones who will suffer most will, of course, be the thousands of misled teenagers we commit to the next global conflict.

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2017, 12:26:02 »
Especially on a warship, or in a jet, or behind a bayonet, or something like that.

Which is why we've probably sold a couple of generations of people a bill of goods by claiming that you can have a well balanced work/ family life while training to fight and win modern wars. This is largely BS, of course.

This woman is likely a victim of fraud of the highest order, I would argue, perpetrated by a couple of decades worth of various kinds of civilian, and civilianized, managers of a military that is trying to be one thing to its civilian population, and quite another to the increasingly dizzy array of modern, well equipped, cunning and wholly ruthless adversaries we face around the globe.

'Charlie's idea of R&R was a little rat meat mixed into his rice'... indeed. We would do well to remind ourselves of that from time to time or the ones who will suffer most will, of course, be the thousands of misled teenagers we commit to the next global conflict.

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2017, 12:29:59 »

1.  We have to be careful to use the whole "I was able to manage so she should be able to" BS.  Or any variation thereof.
Yup that's brutal. When you have a CSM telling you he's single and has no kids so he doesn't care about your family problems. "You chose to have a wife and kids, you don't see me with those problems do you?".  Nope. And you'll be the only one at your DWD party too.

Quote
2.   It resulted in an HRC where it was found that many of her documents had been destroyed or altered for no other reason than to keep her from transferring to another trade that had been very proactive in trying to help her.
The military sure can be vengeful. It's amazing how much power the chain of command has to utterly ruin someones life or turn it upside down because a CFTPO task needs a name.



I'm all about supporting and helping families and I've on occasion treated mbrs with families different to try and accommodate them but on the other spectrum I've seen how unfair that can be too.   Someone doesn't have their life sorted out so other people pick up the slack, including (I've seen) someone do 3 back to back to back deployments. I think there comes a point where the economy of effort of supporting one soldier at the cost of multiple others isn't worth it.

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Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2017, 12:30:32 »
I sympathize with this woman, truly, and it sounds to me like she's been ****ed over by the system, or certain butt nuggets within it.  As far as expectations go, when I joined in 1979 as a dumb 18 year old, I expected to be CDS when I was 40. Turns out, I was right, but CDS stood for Corporal Driving Some officer. Anyone who joins with expectations will most assuredly have karma take a giant crap on them.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2017, 12:39:58 »
Great post Kat.
 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 12:58:24 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2017, 12:54:15 »
Accommodation can be done but does have to be carefully managed.  If too many are done then you end up deploying the same people and eventually they will burn out and become accommodation cases so eventually you have no one left to deploy.

Yup. The RCMP has had to recently completely revamp disability management. The organization is much more beholden to accommodation policy and attentive to DTA law than the CAF, and it does not have UoS. This has definitely shifted a great deal of burden onto those who are fully operational. There are a TON of members being accommodated on medical categories (very similar TCAT/PCAT system) who perform generally useful roles, but can't kit up and take calls. Most of this oerhead has to be borne by the mid to large sized detachments so that the little 3 or 4 man posts keep fully operational members- but it's resulted in communities being policed by less than two thirds of the numbers they should have. Not pretty.

The military is obviously quite different in some ways, but one of those ways is that because of how... selective our chains of command can be in how they actually apply law and policy, we are going to continue to face serious complaints over failures to accommodate, and the impact on operational troops is just going to get worse.
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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2017, 14:26:56 »
I'll probably get flamed for this... but I think we're overlooking the necessary dose of reality here...

1. Circumstances change, and competing priorities... compete. The employer can only manage your personal circumstances so much. At some point one may be forced to make the hard choice. That's called life. What's the old saying... life is what happens when you're busy making plans?

2. She should have no expectation that reclassifying to another occupation will result in her never having to deploy. It that's her goal, then she's proceeding under a significant misapprehension. She should not expect that others pick up her share of the load by deploying in her place.

3. I know this sounds harsh, but her child is apparently six. That means she's probably got at least eight years of service, and is still not at OFP. There's only so long the CF can hang on to people, regardless of how tragic their circumstances might be.

4. I'm not unsympathetic to her plight, but I can't help but feel that perhaps she didn't hear what she wanted to, and is now blaming others for not solving her problems. There comes a point in life where you must take control of your own issues and get on with it. Where you accept that you are the architect of your own success or failure. I'm willing to accept that there may have been issues with her CoC, but still...

5. I have my asbestos underwear handy...
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Offline Tcm621

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2017, 17:19:59 »
Mike, I think point 4 is the most relevant. Accommodation should really be for two main purposes. The first is to retain skills and experience. Retaining a 20 year vet for a few years provides a benefit to the CAF. It is my understanding that this person was unqualified, so what skills and experience can the CAF benefit from? The second point is to retain people who have been injured on the job in order to make their transition to civilian life easier. The classic example being accommodating a person until they reach 10 years of service and can draw a pension. While it is possible she got pregnant on the job (it's happened before), it isn't an injury caused by her service.

Everything beyond that is, or should be, an exception to the rule. If she was a competitive candidate for VOT and someone sabotaged that, that is a whole other can of worms. That person(s) should be on charges and her application considered as if it had gone through originally. That kind of stuff happens far too often still and based on my experience the officer world (especially MARS) is worse than most.

Offline gryphonv

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2017, 17:44:40 »
I went through MARS training around the same time this lady was starting there. I knew her but didn't know her personally.

I have to admit MARS is one of the hardest trades to transfer out of, especially if you start passing courses. I ran into a point during trades training that I was having difficulty in passing. During my TRB my instructor who told me one thing, flipped flopped on what they said they were going to say to the Board and blindsided me with something else.

I was already thinking about requesting to get out of the trade. This solidified my feelings. During the TRB they offered me retraining and I requested to be ceased trained and processed with a COT. The board wasn't too pleased by this and told me if I switched all I would be offered is Combat arms (even though they had no knowledge on what I may or may not be offered.) They were trying to scare me into accepting their recommendation to be re coursed.

Long story short I stuck to my decision and transferred out. It was a COT which are a lot easier to process than a VOT. But if they gave me that much trouble during a COT I know how hard it would be to VOT out of MARS.

I never regretted for one day leaving MARS. I was fortunate I failed one part of trades training, at the time I didn't know that, but looking back several years later I know how lucky I was.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 17:54:25 by gryphonv »

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2017, 21:37:05 »
. . .  That means she's probably got at least eight years of service, and is still not at OFP. . . .

Close, according to her LinkedIn page https://ca.linkedin.com/in/laura-nash-4a7a519 she has seven years, six months service.  And then there is a little more of her story on the webpage for her business https://houseboots.ca/pages/the-story
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Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2017, 22:06:01 »
They're Uggs. Man Uggs. They're Muggs. yuckers.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2017, 01:19:06 »
They're Uggs. Man Uggs. They're Muggs. yuckers.

Don't knock Uggs for indoor slipper wear.  I have a pair of ankle-height ones and they're awesome. 

I'd never wear them outside though.
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Offline Strike

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2017, 08:07:09 »
Close, according to her LinkedIn page https://ca.linkedin.com/in/laura-nash-4a7a519 she has seven years, six months service.  And then there is a little more of her story on the webpage for her business https://houseboots.ca/pages/the-story

Side business means nothing.  I could name a dozen women in the CAF right now who also work through MLMs and other means on the side.

I'm glad someone with experience in the trade spoke up.  I've not had first hand experience in that but have a few friends that have.  Much better for someone to tell their story directly.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Single mom now facing medical release from military
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2017, 13:02:45 »
Don't knock Uggs for indoor slipper wear.  I have a pair of ankle-height ones and they're awesome. 

I'd never wear them outside though.

I suppose they qualify as operational clothing in the RCAF though, much like Billy Bishop used to strafe the Hun is his Jammies :)
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