Author Topic: Tactical Aircraft Security Officer ( TASO )  (Read 4750 times)

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Offline LunchMeat

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Tactical Aircraft Security Officer ( TASO )
« on: July 28, 2017, 20:48:44 »
Has anyone recently attended/completed a TASO course?

Can you spare any information as to how the course is structured, material taught, etc.?

I'm interested in it, but having a hard time finding any information on the course.
"The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.” ~General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: TASO Course
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2017, 21:00:24 »
Interested in crushing box lunches at a furious pace while providing weight on one side of a Herc/Globemaster? I haven't ever seen TASOs do much of anything other than convert oxygen to CO2.

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: TASO Course
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2017, 21:15:00 »
Interested in crushing box lunches at a furious pace while providing weight on one side of a Herc/Globemaster? I haven't ever seen TASOs do much of anything other than convert oxygen to CO2.

I won't turn down a trip on a fancy grey bird!
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Offline Stronghold

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Re: TASO Course
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2017, 18:14:38 »
Hey man I just finished my TASO course about a month ago, it's an awesome course with fantastic instructors.
Lots of opportunities on your flights and they're needing a lot of people for upcoming missions
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Offline WatchDog87

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Re: RCMP to reassign 50 air marshals
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2018, 15:08:52 »
Time to hire some extra MPs and have them take over the roll... ha ha ha

Offline CBH99

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Re: Re: RCMP to reassign 50 air marshals
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2018, 15:45:12 »
I was going to ask...don't the MP's contribute to the air marshal program?  If so, to what extent?


There's been plenty of discussion in various topics about some of the "high end, cool stuff" that the military police branch gets tasked with.  One of the things consistently mentioned is the air marshal courses.

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Re: Re: RCMP to reassign 50 air marshals
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2018, 16:06:29 »
There's been plenty of discussion in various topics about some of the "high end, cool stuff" that the military police branch gets tasked with.  One of the things consistently mentioned is the air marshal courses.

Do you mean TASOs? The only thing high speed about those guys is the physical speed the aircraft they're in travels.

Offline garb811

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Re: Re: RCMP to reassign 50 air marshals
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2018, 16:19:07 »
Do you mean TASOs? The only thing high speed about those guys is the physical speed the aircraft they're in travels.
No.  TASO and Air Marshal are two separate functions.  I know you like mocking what TASO brings to the table (based on what I imagine is you being on a flight or two where TASO were tasked) but since the RCAF keeps demanding more and more of them, they must be doing something right.

For Air Marshal, their mandate is on VIP Code 1 flights on CAF aircraft (read Royal Family, GG, PM...).  So there is no cross-over with what the RCMP are doing.  In fact, MP have being doing the Air Marshal role for as long as I've been in so "our" program predates the RCMP one.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Re: RCMP to reassign 50 air marshals
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2018, 17:41:51 »
No.  TASO and Air Marshal are two separate functions.  I know you like mocking what TASO brings to the table (based on what I imagine is you being on a flight or two where TASO were tasked) but since the RCAF keeps demanding more and more of them, they must be doing something right.

Multiple flights, into some pretty nasty places that 3 people with Brownings/C7s did absolutely nothing but take up rations and oxygen. Either provide an actual section-sized element to secure the aircraft, or don't bother. These guys don't even secure the plane on layovers, just head to the hotels for beers with the aircrew.

Offline garb811

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Re: Re: RCMP to reassign 50 air marshals
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2018, 20:25:16 »
Multiple flights, into some pretty nasty places that 3 people with Brownings/C7s did absolutely nothing but take up rations and oxygen. Either provide an actual section-sized element to secure the aircraft, or don't bother. These guys don't even secure the plane on layovers, just head to the hotels for beers with the aircrew.
Ah,  and here I was worried that you were just talking out your butt and weren't an actual expert on FP of RCAF assets.  ::)

For what it's worth, even the USAF don't deploy a section as part of their equivalent program, we pretty much mirror what they are doing.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 20:31:07 by garb811 »

Offline CBH99

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Re: Re: RCMP to reassign 50 air marshals
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2018, 04:22:07 »
Garb811,

Mind elaborating on the TASO program and what it offers?

Even in the MP recruiting video, it has the very short clip & title of "Air Marshal" - yet obviously, that is different than what the RCMP offers.

Without violating OPSEC of any kind, what is the primary task of the TASO program & does it overlap with what the RCMP does in any way/shape/form?


Thanks
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Re: RCMP to reassign 50 air marshals
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2018, 07:26:05 »
Garb811,

Mind elaborating on the TASO program and what it offers?

Even in the MP recruiting video, it has the very short clip & title of "Air Marshal" - yet obviously, that is different than what the RCMP offers.

Without violating OPSEC of any kind, what is the primary task of the TASO program & does it overlap with what the RCMP does in any way/shape/form?


Thanks

The RCMP Air Marshal program is provided to Canadian Air Carriers. The MP Air Marshal Detail deals with providing security to the Prime Minister and Government Officials, Dignitaries onboard GoC aircraft abroad while conducting government business.

Tactical Aircraft Security Officers fly with Military Aircraft into zones where security is inadequate, nonexistent, or unknown. They provide security to the Aircraft, the Aircrew, assist with maintaining passenger discipline and providing additional security for detainee transports. They protect the aircraft from sabotage, attack, and prevent stowaways. TASO are a combat function, something the RCMP don't do.
"The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.” ~General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: RCMP to reassign 50 air marshals
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2018, 07:44:37 »
Multiple flights, into some pretty nasty places that 3 people with Brownings/C7s did absolutely nothing but take up rations and oxygen. Either provide an actual section-sized element to secure the aircraft, or don't bother. These guys don't even secure the plane on layovers, just head to the hotels for beers with the aircrew.

Funny, I don't remember securing an aircraft on a layover where there is adequate security being part of our job.

In hot zones, sure. I've slept on the cargo deck many times in nasty places, between standing out on the airfield in FFO when the temp breaks 45°C and the aircrew were the ones in hotels.

Not sure what you're on about, but just because you met a couple of morons, does not mean our function is useless. The Aircrew sure appreciate us.
"The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.” ~General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC

Offline garb811

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Re: Re: RCMP to reassign 50 air marshals
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2018, 21:47:11 »
Garb811,

Mind elaborating on the TASO program and what it offers?

Even in the MP recruiting video, it has the very short clip & title of "Air Marshal" - yet obviously, that is different than what the RCMP offers.

Without violating OPSEC of any kind, what is the primary task of the TASO program & does it overlap with what the RCMP does in any way/shape/form?


Thanks
In addition to what LunchMeat has stated ref TASO, for the actual Air Marshall program, I would expect much of it is similar, if not the same, as what RCMP do with regard to TTPs anyway.  There are some marked differences in who is on the aircraft (general public vs pre-screened and selected individuals) but at the end of the day, the ultimate response is deadly force in a pressurized tube at 35,000 feet... 

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Re: RCMP to reassign 50 air marshals
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2018, 21:49:39 »
... but at the end of the day, the ultimate response is deadly force in a pressurized tube at 35,000 feet...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_One_(film)
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Offline CBH99

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Re: Tactical Aircraft Security Officer ( TASO )
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2018, 00:22:23 »
Thanks for the clarification guys.

I always wondered about the use of 9mm bullets or bigger, in a deadly use of force incident on an airliner.  Even if you hit your target 100% of the time, there is always the chance of the round exiting the target, and not always in the direction the bullet was traveling before it hit the target.

I always thought rubber bullets would make more sense, or some other sort of technology that - Heaven forbid - it hit a window, it didn't doom an entire aircraft worth of people to a sudden & violent death.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Tactical Aircraft Security Officer ( TASO )
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2018, 00:27:45 »
Thanks for the clarification guys.

I always wondered about the use of 9mm bullets or bigger, in a deadly use of force incident on an airliner.  Even if you hit your target 100% of the time, there is always the chance of the round exiting the target, and not always in the direction the bullet was traveling before it hit the target.

I always thought rubber bullets would make more sense, or some other sort of technology that - Heaven forbid - it hit a window, it didn't doom an entire aircraft worth of people to a sudden & violent death.

Are you basing your post on what you have seen in Hollywood movies, or the actual physics of a depressurization?

I have done more than one chamber run in my career where we went from 10,000ft cabin altitude to over 20,000ft, nearly instantly. I lived, every single time.  :nod:
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 00:31:03 by SeaKingTacco »

Offline CBH99

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Re: Tactical Aircraft Security Officer ( TASO )
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2018, 00:32:27 »
To be honest, my 'imagined scenario' is probably based more on the Hollywood version than the physics.

Beyond that series on Discovery channel (I think it was called Mayday?) about aircraft disasters, and what I've seen about "holes in pressurized tubes at 35,000ft seems very very bad" - I don't actually know the physics behind a sudden depressurization at altitude like that. 

Happy to admit, on that front, very much out of my lane.  I assumed, albeit it would seem wrongly, that a bullet through a window/fuselage at that speed & altitude would be catastrophic...


(Gonna wander off and google some facts now, don't mind me)
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Tactical Aircraft Security Officer ( TASO )
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2018, 00:58:46 »
That's why you train, train, and train how to shoot within an aircraft. You also don't use FMJ, you use soft-jacket or hollow point ammunition because it has less penetrating power. Less risk of it going through someone into the hull or a vital system, or piercing through from the inside.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Tactical Aircraft Security Officer ( TASO )
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2018, 01:19:13 »
To be honest, my 'imagined scenario' is probably based more on the Hollywood version than the physics.

Beyond that series on Discovery channel (I think it was called Mayday?) about aircraft disasters, and what I've seen about "holes in pressurized tubes at 35,000ft seems very very bad" - I don't actually know the physics behind a sudden depressurization at altitude like that. 

Happy to admit, on that front, very much out of my lane.  I assumed, albeit it would seem wrongly, that a bullet through a window/fuselage at that speed & altitude would be catastrophic...


(Gonna wander off and google some facts now, don't mind me)

Don't get me wrong- it is very unhealthy to "bust caps" in a thin walled metal tube at 35,000 feet, doing 500 mph. I just don't buy that the airplane necessarily stops flying with a 9mm sized hole in the fuselage.

When the earth was still,cooling (and I was on Nav Training) we used to do Celestial Navigation. That meant mounting the sextant in an airlock that protruded thru the skin of the aircraft. Reasonably often enough, during act of mounting or dismounting the sextant at altitude, one could bypass the airlock feature and the cabin would begin venting through a hole maybe 2-3cm in diameter. It was a bit noisy, like standing next to a giant vacuum cleaner, and your ears popped a bit, but that was about all that happened.

Offline Baz

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Re: Tactical Aircraft Security Officer ( TASO )
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2018, 08:33:00 »
Don't get me wrong- it is very unhealthy to "bust caps" in a thin walled metal tube at 35,000 feet, doing 500 mph. I just don't buy that the airplane necessarily stops flying with a 9mm sized hole in the fuselage.

When the earth was still,cooling (and I was on Nav Training) we used to do Celestial Navigation. That meant mounting the sextant in an airlock that protruded thru the skin of the aircraft. Reasonably often enough, during act of mounting or dismounting the sextant at altitude, one could bypass the airlock feature and the cabin would begin venting through a hole maybe 2-3cm in diameter. It was a bit noisy, like standing next to a giant vacuum cleaner, and your ears popped a bit, but that was about all that happened.

I'm pretty sure I did Nav training before you... I was the fourth course on the CT-142.

Urban legend has it that the Hercs used to carry a vacuum cleaner hose to plug into the sextant mount and clean up the cockpit when they were bored.  As the legend goes a stop was put to it when they realized they were abrading the leading edge of the tail plane with whatever garbage they were sucking out...

But yes, it seems a lot of people (probably based on Hollywood) equate a little hole in tn the fuselage with a structural failure.

I did a really quick look at the NTSB database at https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/index.aspx  Searching for decompression I got 72 results; given that we don't here about them all I would assume most of them are not "dramatic."  A random pick of two 737 ones gives no injuries in 131 on board (https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20090714X83900&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA) and 1 minor injury in 122 on board (https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20110401X24330&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=MA).  However, these were structural failures from manufacturing and maintenance errors resulting in holes 18X12" and 60X8"; given that, I would believe that a tiny hole from a bullet wouldn't even result in a rapid decompression, and that the skin wouldn't tear, unless it hit a critical structural piece or system.

For comparison, here is an example of a structural failure which Hollywood wants to make every little hole into: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20001213X25439&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=MA with the full report with pictures at http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraft-accident-reports/AAR89-03.pdf.  Google "Aloha Airlines Flight 243" for more and in color.  Again caused by maintenance technique.

</Sarcasm> Lesson is I'd be more afraid of the tech's drinking at the hotel before working on the aircraft then the TASO drinking at the hotel before carrying his gun. </End Sarcasm>

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Tactical Aircraft Security Officer ( TASO )
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2018, 08:42:05 »
Excuse me.  Your detailed technical knowledge and experience is no match for me having watched Goldfinger.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Tactical Aircraft Security Officer ( TASO )
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2018, 09:57:59 »
Yes, Hollywood likes to go crazy with imagined effects that have no basis in science or fact.

To quote Professor Farnsworth (Futurama  ;) ), when asked how much pressure their starship can take: "Well, it is designed for space travel, so I would say one atmosphere". At lower altitudes than space, the difference is even less than one atmosphere. So, a 9mm hole in the fuselage is not going to decompress the plane so fast everybody gets sucked in the hole. It's going to be slow process, and can probably be blocked by sticking your cell phone over the hole - or anything sufficiently rigid. Similarly, larger holes will cause the decompression to go faster, but at the expense of the "suction" effect, which would then be lower (Hollywood always misses that one: the bigger the hole, the lower the suction - at least from decompression).

The real dangers of decompression are not the "great-vacuum-cleaner-effect" but the lack of oxygen required to sustain human life.

Similarly, the bigger problem with holes large enough and structural failures at altitude are caused in much greater part by the effect of 500-900km/hour + winds created by the movement of the airplane. Those winds will create some suction and given a chance, rip at the structure of the aircraft. In the Aloha flight 253 case, for instance, if you had been stopped somewhere with the same pressure differential and suddenly ripped the whole section that got ripped, you would barely feel any "suction" effect (other than your ears popping up). It's the wind created by such an opening at 650 mph that caused most of the trouble and likely ripped the poor stewardess from the plane.   

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Re: Tactical Aircraft Security Officer ( TASO )
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2018, 17:28:48 »
This thread has gone from a discussion of a military qualification to an episode of Myhtbusters.
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Offline garb811

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Re: Tactical Aircraft Security Officer ( TASO )
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2018, 20:33:37 »
This thread has gone from a discussion of a military qualification to an episode of Myhtbusters.
You've been around here long enough to know that the chances of a thread veering off topic are...well, pretty much guaranteed.   ;D