Author Topic: Authority to can grant the redress sought.  (Read 3162 times)

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Offline Lumber

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Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« on: September 07, 2017, 11:45:24 »
Quote
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the following officers may act as the initial authority in respect of a grievance:
a.the commanding officer of the grievor, if the commanding officer can grant the redress sought;

How do you determine if the CO (or whomever the IA is) has the authority to grant the redress?

Specifically, who has the authority to remove Remedial Measures from a member's Pers file? I can't find this anywhere.

On another note, the whole grievance process perplexes me. I've read the reference but I haven't gone through the process.

If the IA is able to grant the redress, but he's still required to forward the grievance to the FA, and the FA as the final say, and I imagine the FA takes a while to get around to reviewing the mass of grievances that must cross his desk, then couldn't the IA grant the redress, and then a year later the FA overturns it?

Cheers
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Offline MCG

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2017, 11:53:55 »
There is no automatic review of IA decisions by the FA.  If the griever does not like the IA's decision, then the griever submits for a review by the FA.

As for determining if a CO has authority, if there is doubt the unit should consult with DGCFGA.  In the matter of a remedial measure, I would assume a member's CO usually has the authority to remove a RM that was issued by the unit.  If the RM was issued by DMCA, then DMCA would likely be the IA.

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2017, 12:21:13 »
But is the CO not precluded from being the IA where the grievance involves an act or decision by the CO? For example, if the CO initiated the RM, then arguably they would be unable to act as an IA grieving that RM? (QR&O 7.14(2)) However if the CO was not the Initiating Authority for the RM, then they should be able to act as the IA for a grievance.

Regarding removal of the RM from the Pers File, I would think that the member would need to have the RM quashed in order for the details to be purged from the Pers File. If the member overcame the defect for which the RM was instituted, and has not grieved the RM itself, then I think they're out of luck. DAOD 5019-4 para 7.2 stipulates that the RM and all correspondence shall be permanently kept on the member's Pers File.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2017, 12:33:24 »
APM245 is the logical place to start when discussing pers files.  See chapter 9 of the MHRPP.  DWAN only link: http://upkprod.desc.mil.ca/hrmsp/eng/data/toc.html


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Offline Lumber

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2017, 12:45:27 »
But is the CO not precluded from being the IA where the grievance involves an act or decision by the CO? For example, if the CO initiated the RM, then arguably they would be unable to act as an IA grieving that RM? (QR&O 7.14(2)) However if the CO was not the Initiating Authority for the RM, then they should be able to act as the IA for a grievance.

Regarding removal of the RM from the Pers File, I would think that the member would need to have the RM quashed in order for the details to be purged from the Pers File. If the member overcame the defect for which the RM was instituted, and has not grieved the RM itself, then I think they're out of luck. DAOD 5019-4 para 7.2 stipulates that the RM and all correspondence shall be permanently kept on the member's Pers File.

The member's CO was not the CO who issued the RM, and the chain of command who issued the RM now no longer believes the RM was warranted (they've since received new information absolving the member).

In this case, I feel like an informal grievance revolution would be best, but can the member's current CO simply order the RM removed (and shredded) from his PERs file?
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2017, 12:46:08 »
APM245 is the logical place to start when discussing pers files.  See chapter 9 of the MHRPP.  DWAN only link: http://upkprod.desc.mil.ca/hrmsp/eng/data/toc.html

Ack, thanks. I'll check when I'm back from lunch.
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2017, 12:52:52 »
The member's CO was not the CO who issued the RM, and the chain of command who issued the RM now no longer believes the RM was warranted (they've since received new information absolving the member).

In this case, I feel like an informal grievance revolution would be best, but can the member's current CO simply order the RM removed (and shredded) from his PERs file?

It may not need a grievance. The CO should be able to initiate the process independently. All of the supporting documentation should be packaged together and forwarded to the appropriate authority with the CO's recommendation that the RM be reversed. It should then follow that the RM could be removed from the Pers File as it in effect never happened.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2017, 13:36:03 »
It may not need a grievance. The CO should be able to initiate the process independently. All of the supporting documentation should be packaged together and forwarded to the appropriate authority with the CO's recommendation that the RM be reversed. It should then follow that the RM could be removed from the Pers File as it in effect never happened.

That's what I'm looking for; who is the appropriate authority? Our CO didn't initiate the RM, another CO did.
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“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2017, 14:25:48 »
That's what I'm looking for; who is the appropriate authority? Our CO didn't initiate the RM, another CO did.

In that case, I should think NAVRESHQ N1 or whatever they call themselves now. This is clearly one of those unforeseen circumstances that no admin process can guard against.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2017, 16:49:57 »
In that case, I should think NAVRESHQ N1 or whatever they call themselves now. This is clearly one of those unforeseen circumstances that no admin process can guard against.

Thanks!
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
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Offline ballz

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2017, 17:41:54 »
I would think a CO to CO phone call to solve things at the lowest level could probably save a lot of needless admin?
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2017, 12:39:40 »
Bingo - I am with Ballz on this one.  If the two CO's agree then I would happily make everything go away.
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2017, 21:13:58 »
I might normally agree, however once the paperwork has been forwarded to the HQ the COs probably don't have the authority to suspend the RM.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 03:55:40 »
Sounds like informal resolution.  I know of a case where the unit CO placed a mbr on  RW.  It was challenged informally to who would like have been t meh IA (wing commander).  The Wing Comd reviewed and ordered the RM removed and purged from the mbrs record.  So there is some reality to the HHQ aspect.  Phone call to NAVRES HQ N1 perhaps?
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2017, 14:17:19 »
If the IA is able to grant the redress, but he's still required to forward the grievance to the FA, and the FA as the final say, and I imagine the FA takes a while to get around to reviewing the mass of grievances that must cross his desk, then couldn't the IA grant the redress, and then a year later the FA overturns it?

Keep in mind that the FA for all grievances is the CDS, not DGCFGA, notwithstanding that the CDS has delegated some authority to DGCFGA to exercise on his behalf.  All grievances are forwarded to DGCFGA for filing and tracking.  Only if the member is unhappy with the IA decision, does DGCFGA investigate and make recommendations to the FA.  Otherwise it is simply filed (DGCFGA is divided into several sections, one of which simply tracks and files grievances). The FA will not overturn an IA decision unless the member asks him to (and it's justified)
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2017, 15:00:57 »
Keep in mind that the FA for all grievances is the CDS, not DGCFGA, notwithstanding that the CDS has delegated some authority to DGCFGA to exercise on his behalf.  All grievances are forwarded to DGCFGA for filing and tracking.  Only if the member is unhappy with the IA decision, does DGCFGA investigate and make recommendations to the FA.  Otherwise it is simply filed (DGCFGA is divided into several sections, one of which simply tracks and files grievances). The FA will not overturn an IA decision unless the member asks him to (and it's justified)

Ah. So, it goes one of two ways:

1. IA Makes Decision --> Member Accepts Decision --> DGCFGA files it away; or
2. IA Makes Decision --> Member Appeals Decision --> DGCFGA forwards file to CDS.

Is this right? If so, where does this "committee" come into play?

My 100% pure guess is that, the job of investigating a grievance is a lot of work; work that the CDS doesn't have time for. So, if the mbr doesn't accept the IA's decision, DGCFGA assembles a committee that does their own investigation and analysis and recommends a decision. They forward THIS to the CDS, who reads through it and makes the final decision. Amiright?
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“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

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Offline CountDC

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2017, 15:16:53 »
That was my experience in the past dealing with grievances and the CDS doesn't always agree with the recommendation after getting input from all his direct staff.  Look on the MGERC site and there are lots there where the CDS said, nope you guys are wrong and this is the way it is.

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Offline Lumber

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2017, 15:31:47 »
That was my experience in the past dealing with grievances and the CDS doesn't always agree with the recommendation after getting input from all his direct staff.  Look on the MGERC site and there are lots there where the CDS said, nope you guys are wrong and this is the way it is.

I've read a few of those. After reading the panel's finding, with all their substantiation, I've been blown away by some of the recommendations that the CDS disagreed with. Some appear to a demonstration of leadership as an Art, vice a science (as in, yes I know the references say this, but this is why this is the right thing to do), but in other cases, the only reason I could come up with is politics.
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“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Authority to can grant the redress sought.
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2017, 16:55:59 »
Ah. So, it goes one of two ways:

1. IA Makes Decision --> Member Accepts Decision --> DGCFGA files it away; or
2. IA Makes Decision --> Member Appeals Decision --> DGCFGA forwards file to CDS.

Not always.  DGCFGA may also fwd the file to the Military Grievances External Review Committee if the grievor is not happy with the IA decision and directs the file to be forwarded to the FA, it may end up at the MGERC for them to process and produce their F & R (Finding and Recommendations).  The F & R are then disclosed to the grievor and DGCFGA for FA (either the DG or the CDS) to render decision on, noting that of course the FA is not bond to the F & R but if they go against, are expected to detail why in their decision (examples of that are found on their website case summaries).

Quote
If so, where does this "committee" come into play?

My 100% pure guess is that, the job of investigating a grievance is a lot of work; work that the CDS doesn't have time for. So, if the mbr doesn't accept the IA's decision, DGCFGA assembles a committee that does their own investigation and analysis and recommends a decision. They forward THIS to the CDS, who reads through it and makes the final decision. Amiright?

You might have found this already but....http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-support-services-for-members-grievance/faq.page

3. What is the role of the Military Grievances External Review Committee?

The Committee is an independent organization that conducts an arms- length review of a grievance. The duty of the Committee is to provide findings and recommendations to the CDS and the grievor. In accordance with QR&O article 7.21 (Types of Grievances to Be Referred to Grievances Committee), the types of grievances that must be referred to the Committee are as follows:

•administrative action resulting in the forfeiture of or deductions from pay and allowances, reversion to a lower rank or release from the CF

•the application or interpretation of CF policies relating to the expression of personal opinions, political activities, candidature for office, civil employment, conflict of interest and post-employment compliance measures, harassment or racist conduct

•pay, allowances and other financial benefits

•the entitlement to medical care or dental treatment

•any decision, act or omission of the CDS in respect of a particular officer or non-commissioned member

The CDS may also select to refer a grievance, other than one prescribed in QR&O 7.21, to the Committee in order to receive recommendations from a third party outside the Department. These are called discretionary referrals.   {in a case I am aware of, DGCFGA referred to the Committee on behalf of the CDS in a discretionary referral;  to my knowledge the first eyes on the CDS had was after the F & R was reviewed by the CFGA and the assigned Analyst drafted the FA decision}

I'll add, DGCFGA is staffed with personnel who are Grievance Analysts and have taken the GA course/training.  Different org's also have GAs (the Comd RCAF should have GA(s) embedded in the CAS staff somewhere, for example) who will perform the GA duties for the Comd RCAF if he/she is determined to be the IA.  The GA will do the required staff work, produce a recommended decision for the IA, etc.

If you look them up on the DWAN, you should be able to see their org chart that breaks down how the basically operate (*if it is still there...its been a few years since I was involved in a grievance).
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 17:02:04 by Eye In The Sky »
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