Author Topic: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?  (Read 15700 times)

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Offline danteh

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Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« on: October 24, 2017, 12:49:42 »
I am currently a shift working working 24 hour shifts (7am-7am) and we are being told that for us to take leave it requires two annual leave days to take off a single shift. We are also being told now (was find for a long time up until now) that short, special and holiday leave is now the same. 2 days for 1 day off. We have a bunch of guys going on courses and deployments looking to get the two special days before hand and the memos are getting kicked back now stating we don’t get two days only one because of this rule.

I have searched through the leave policy manual and had no luck. Al of the clerks I have talked to (albeit they are all 3s) have no idea so before I went higher I’d like to ask around and see if there is any documentation on this already.

Offline mariomike

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2017, 12:59:32 »
I am currently a shift working working 24 hour shifts (7am-7am) and we are being told that for us to take leave it requires two annual leave days to take off a single shift.

To take leave on a 24 hour shift requires two annual because you are working what the military classifies as two work periods.

The main reason that many halls do not want to go to 24 hour shifts as due to leave requirements. Working 24 hour shifts as was mentioned you only work 7 days a month, now most people have 25 days leave, multiply it by the number of people on shift and it gets difficult for everyone to get their leave in.

Danteh,

I served, as a firefighter at Greenwood, Shearwater and Borden prior to getting out. Different bases had different ideas about the 24 hour shift, some places only needed one day leave because your work day is 24 hours.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 13:06:40 by mariomike »

Offline danteh

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2017, 13:07:47 »
Where is the documentation that supports this? Because all I have found is an annual day is for one work day. Some people have 9-5 work days some have 12 hour work days and some have 24 hour work days. The 9-5 and 12 hour work day guys get 1 for 1. Even when I worked night shifts which was 1630 until 0730 the next morning we got 1 for 1.

Offline Strike

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2017, 13:18:02 »
Section 2.2 Reckoning Time
2.2.01 Reckoning time
Except in the case of short leave, leave begins at 0000 hours on the commencement date and ends at 2400 hours on the last day of leave.
Weekends, designated and other holidays (listed in Annex A of this chapter), or in the case of shift workers’ scheduled non-working days (designated as weekends on the CF 100), shall not be charged against any leave that is granted in working days; although, such days will normally form part of the leave period.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/assets/FORCES_Internet/docs/en/caf-community-benefits/cflpm.pdf

So, if your shift ends at 0700 and you have 3 days off before your next shift that is not considered leave. It's a non-working day.  If you are off at 0700, are supposed to have 24 hours off before coming back to work, but ask for leave it would not start until midnight of that next date and end at midnight.  That day that you finish work is not to be counted as a leave day as you would be getting it off anyway.
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Offline mariomike

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« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 13:33:55 by mariomike »

Offline danteh

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 13:40:39 »
Section 2.2 Reckoning Time
2.2.01 Reckoning time
Except in the case of short leave, leave begins at 0000 hours on the commencement date and ends at 2400 hours on the last day of leave.
Weekends, designated and other holidays (listed in Annex A of this chapter), or in the case of shift workers’ scheduled non-working days (designated as weekends on the CF 100), shall not be charged against any leave that is granted in working days; although, such days will normally form part of the leave period.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/assets/FORCES_Internet/docs/en/caf-community-benefits/cflpm.pdf

So, if your shift ends at 0700 and you have 3 days off before your next shift that is not considered leave. It's a non-working day.  If you are off at 0700, are supposed to have 24 hours off before coming back to work, but ask for leave it would not start until midnight of that next date and end at midnight.  That day that you finish work is not to be counted as a leave day as you would be getting it off anyway.

So your saying if I am working 24 hours Monday and Wednesday and I wanted to take leave, I wouldn't include Thursday as a working day because I am off at 0700 anyways?

Offline Strike

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 13:43:32 »
So your saying if I am working 24 hours Monday and Wednesday and I wanted to take leave, I wouldn't include Thursday as a working day because I am off at 0700 anyways?

According to the leave manual, that would be correct, because you wouldn't be working for that time period anyway.
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Offline danteh

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 13:49:32 »
According to the leave manual, that would be correct, because you wouldn't be working for that time period anyway.

So we are getting screwed.

What would you suggest being the best way to bring this up? Obviously through my CoC but I have never dealt with something like this.

Or would it be wise to try and talk with the chief clerk at the OR to get a solid answer to this?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 14:11:59 by danteh »

Offline MCG

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 18:06:54 »
You can try writing a memo that references the applicable policy.

Offline mariomike

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2017, 18:11:21 »
I am currently a shift working working 24 hour shifts

So we are getting screwed.

Would you be more / less / the same "screwed" if you worked 10/14-hour shifts?

( Or < shudder > 8-hour shifts? )

« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 18:29:24 by mariomike »

Offline danteh

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2017, 18:47:49 »
Would you be more / less / the same "screwed" if you worked 10/14-hour shifts?

( Or < shudder > 8-hour shifts? )

When we used to work 13 hour night shifts 1630 - 0730 it would be one for one

What I think they are doing is calling the 0000-0730 during the morning we are done a scheduled working day because according to the LPM the definition of a working day is "a day of paid service on which an officer or non-commissioned member is regularly scheduled to perform duty." Technically we are scheduled to perform duty from midnight until we leave at 0730. If this is the case and they classify the morning of the day off a working day, wouldn't that mean we are technically working 96 hours straight according to them? Because we work the 24 hour shift, the next morning is still a working day, then 24 the next day, and another working day after?

What I don't understand is why that wasn't applicable when we were doing 13 hour night shifts still overnight.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 19:01:04 by danteh »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2017, 19:49:46 »
Couple of small points.

The day you come off shift at 0730, it can't be a Leave day.  You're on duty until 0730.  Can't be "on leave" and "on duty" at the same time.

Ref whether taking one x 24 hour shift off...I know you're seeing it as "1 day", but in effect, it would be 2 calendar days, no?  You can't be on leave from "0730" in the morning.  So for you to take *1 shift* off, you're actually away for 2 calendar/duty days.  If you're shift started at 0730 Monday and ended 0730 Tuesday, that shift actually covers 2 calendar/duty days (Monday shift portion 0730-2359, Tuesday shift portion 0000-0730).  Your leave pass would have to have 2 days on it, wouldn't it?

That's the "book" perspective, IMO.

There is also more direction in the LPM ref shift workers, though.  Not sure if you've noticed this.

1.1.06 Calendar Days

Calendar days means days from the calendar.


1.1.22 Shift Worker

A shift worker is a person who does not necessarily have a working day schedule of Monday to Friday with Saturday, Sunday and designated and/or statutory holidays scheduled as non-working days.

1.1.24 Working Day

Working day means a day of paid service on which an officer or non-commissioned member is regularly scheduled to perform duty

Section 2.8 Shift Work

2.8.01 Scheduling

The concept of a weekend for a shift worker is not restricted to Saturdays and Sundays.  Shift workers may follow a schedule that differs from a Monday to Friday working week, but it is a schedule nonetheless.  In scheduling the working days of a shift worker, the CO is responsible for specifically identifying both the working and non-working days so as to ensure that the amount of time off is equivalent to the weekends and statutory holidays provided to CF members working a Monday to Friday work-week.

In order to provide members with rest time associated with weekends and statutory holidays, care must be exercised to ensure the equivalent time off is given at regular intervals and not accumulated over long periods of time.

When working on a compressed schedule, time off must be earned in order to be taken (i.e. four days of work on a compressed schedule for three days off in a week). When a member requests annual leave, this leave must be granted based on a normal working week (i.e. not compressed) in order to ensure a member is not granted more than the allotted annual leave entitlement.

Example:A member who works four (4) 12-hour shift days in a scheduled work week (Monday to Thursday), earns a three-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling seven days in a week. The member then takes a week of leave using five annual days (Monday to Friday, where each day counts as a normal uncompressed workday) plus two weekend days, totalling seven days.

2.8.02 Reckoning Time also gives more info ref what is an Annual and what is a NWD.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 19:59:41 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline danteh

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2017, 19:54:05 »
Couple of small points.

The day you come off shift at 0730, it can't be a Leave day.  You're on duty until 0730.  Can't be "on leave" and "on duty" at the same time.

Ref whether taking one x 24 hour shift off...I know you're seeing it as "1 day", but in effect, it would be 2 calendar days, no?  You can't be on leave from "0730" in the morning.  So for you to take *1 shift* off, you're actually away for 2 calendar/duty days.  If you're shift started at 0730 Monday and ended 0730 Tuesday, that shift actually covers 2 calendar/duty days (Monday shift portion 0730-2359, Tuesday shift portion 0000-0730).  Your leave pass would have to have 2 days on it, wouldn't it?

That's the "book" perspective, IMO.

You are completely correct and I would agree with you and move on but the precedent was set when we used to work 13 hour shifts from 1630-0730 the next morning and to take that shift off would only require one leave day even tho it also spanned two calendar days. Like I said above what I believe has happened as per the LPM is that our CO changed the policy (which he is allowed) and designated the morning that we get off as a working day thus it requires an annual leave day to take that day off because we are working 0000-0730 that morning. Unfortunately if that is the case it is also affecting short and special leave for people. I have some feelers out to some switched on clerks and hopefully tomorrow I can get an answer and if not I will get a sitdown with my OC and get an answer. I'm at the point now where "Because if we did one for one you guys would have to much time off" as an answer.

As for your edit;

"When working on a compressed schedule, time off must be earned in order to be taken (i.e. four days of work on a compressed schedule for three days off in a week). When a member requests annual leave, this leave must be granted based on a normal working week (i.e. not compressed) in order to ensure a member is not granted more than the allotted annual leave entitlement."

This has already been figured out by other members of our unit. We are working more and getting less time off compared to the normal working days of members.

Also to counter that you have 3.1.02 "Annual leave does not have to be earned before it is used; however, over expenditures of annual leave shall be recovered." Which with the calculations done by many members there are no over expenditures. I personally however have not figured that out myself but I do trust the various other members that have done it. The only case of that would be people taking leave outside their entitlement.

"Example:A member who works four (4) 12-hour shift days in a scheduled work week (Monday to Thursday), earns a three-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling seven days in a week."

Using this example and changing (4) 12-hour shift days to (2) 24-hour shift days you get this;

Example:A member who works two (2) 24-hour shift days in a scheduled work week (Monday and Wednesday), earns a five-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling seven days in a week.

However because I believe they are classifying the mornings we get off as working days we are only getting a four-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling six days.

And if you want to go even further by the book if they are classifying the mornings off as working days we are "technically" working four shifts in a row.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 20:39:24 by danteh »

Offline MCG

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2017, 21:00:51 »
Put in a memo and point to the reference.  Ask your chain of command to explain what it is doing.  If you are unhappy with the answer, submit a grievance.  If your unit absolutely believes it is correctly applying the policy, then the IA will be the policy owner.  Maybe you found an exception for which the policy as written does not function; “they” (in Ottawa) will be required to address the matter.

Nobody else in the CAF needs to expend two days of leave to get twenty four hours off.  The fact that a shift ends the subsequent calandar day is irrelevant - that is a scheduling issue. 

I have had troops come off leave during exercises.  I don’t expect them to appear in the field at mid night.  They report for duty at the next regular morning start time (maybe a few hours earlier) and join us sometime in the next few hours.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2017, 21:16:13 »
The challenge is in translating unusual working hours into days.  But here's one potential way to look at it:


A normal working year is 2087.5 hours - at least, that's the figure used when doing leave cash out calculations.  I'm assuming your schedule is something like 24 on 24 off 24 on 120 off, or, in other words, working two in eight.  So, your work year (before leave) would be  365 x (2/8) x 24, or 2190 hours.

"Normal" leave of 25 days would be 25 x 8 working hours, or 200 working hours.  In your case, if "one day of leave equals 24 working hours", you'd be getting 25 x 24 working hours, or 600 working hours.
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Offline danteh

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2017, 21:32:01 »
The challenge is in translating unusual working hours into days.  But here's one potential way to look at it:


A normal working year is 2087.5 hours - at least, that's the figure used when doing leave cash out calculations.  I'm assuming your schedule is something like 24 on 24 off 24 on 120 off, or, in other words, working two in eight.  So, your work year (before leave) would be  365 x (2/8) x 24, or 2190 hours.

"Normal" leave of 25 days would be 25 x 8 working hours, or 200 working hours.  In your case, if "one day of leave equals 24 working hours", you'd be getting 25 x 24 working hours, or 600 working hours.

Sorry this really confused me.

In your case, if "one day of leave equals 24 working hours", you'd be getting 25 x 24 working hours, or 600 working hours."

Are you saying we are getting 400 more working hours off a year compared to "normal" working members?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2017, 21:35:40 »
You are completely correct and I would agree with you and move on but the precedent was set when we used to work 13 hour shifts from 1630-0730 the next morning and to take that shift off would only require one leave day even tho it also spanned two calendar days. Like I said above what I believe has happened as per the LPM is that our CO changed the policy (which he is allowed) and designated the morning that we get off as a working day thus it requires an annual leave day to take that day off because we are working 0000-0730 that morning. Unfortunately if that is the case it is also affecting short and special leave for people.

I just wanted to say, I didn't say I *agree* with your units interpretation/implementation of the CAF policy, however, was attempting to provide one view from a "black/white" perspective; i.e. 1 working day covers 2 calendar days, so to take 1 x 24 hr shift off could be viewed as 2 x Ann days.  I've been on the losing end of similar views WRT NWDS for 'on call weekends', getting 1 NWD for being away on a weekend that was followed by a Designated Holiday, things like that. 

I think, however, a strong policy statement that adds considerably to your case/contention to your CofC is this:

Section 2.8 Shift Work

2.8.01 Scheduling

The concept of a weekend for a shift worker is not restricted to Saturdays and Sundays.  Shift workers may follow a schedule that differs from a Monday to Friday working week, but it is a schedule nonetheless.  In scheduling the working days of a shift worker, the CO is responsible for specifically identifying both the working and non-working days so as to ensure that the amount of time off is equivalent to the weekends and statutory holidays provided to CF members working a Monday to Friday work-week.

I don't agree with the 2 for 1 for Special Leave for pre-course admin.  I'd be interested to know the opinion of your Unit CWO on these issues.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2017, 21:37:17 »
I'm saying that it's a complex situation - I did a 30 second piece of math with many assumptions about shifts & timing that may or may not be accurate.  You are in an unusual situation, and thus the way things get managed will be unusual, since the military tends to think in terms of "days" and not "hours", when "hours" is an easier frame of reference for your kind of  shift work.

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2017, 21:44:05 »
Nobody else in the CAF needs to expend two days of leave to get twenty four hours off.  The fact that a shift ends the subsequent calandar day is irrelevant - that is a scheduling issue. 


This part;  I wish the LPM clearly said "a working day doesn't necessarily have to coincide with a calendar day" in later parts (Section 2 specifically) after the def's in Sect 1.  Or define/use 'duty day', or something.

I've routinely done Standby beginning at 1600 on a Friday and ending at 0800 on a Monday.  Is that 4 days of duty, 2.5 days...arguments can be made for either opinion. 
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But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline danteh

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2017, 21:45:59 »
This part;  I wish the LPM clearly said "a working day doesn't necessarily have to coincide with a calendar day" in later parts (Section 2 specifically) after the def's in Sect 1.  Or define/use 'duty day', or something.

I've routinely done Standby beginning at 1600 on a Friday and ending at 0800 on a Monday.  Is that 4 days of duty, 2.5 days...arguments can be made for either opinion.

Ya only sick leave and compassionate leave is reckoned in calendar days. Everything else is working days.

The biggest issue is it was only effecting annual leave. Guys didn't like it but we dealt with it. It is now effecting short and special leave now to. Guys are coming back from courses like PLQ or their 5's, multiple month long taskings etc and trying to get the two special before and after and they are getting denied saying they only get one before and after because of this. And for short we have guys that have come back from two week long exercises and asking for two short days and only getting one (if that) most are getting denied now without reasons given.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 21:50:09 by danteh »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2017, 21:48:08 »
So if the MO puts you on 30 days sick leave, does the unit see that as "15 days"?   :stirpot:
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline danteh

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2017, 21:51:07 »
So if the MO puts you on 30 days sick leave, does the unit see that as "15 days"?   :stirpot:

No. Sick leave is calendar days not working days. If they tried that there would be a whole new storm coming.

Offline ballz

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2017, 21:51:37 »
I'd be curious to see what your actual shift schedule for a normal cycle looks like. If you could provide that, it would probably help.
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Offline danteh

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2017, 21:53:23 »
I'd be curious to see what your actual shift schedule for a normal cycle looks like. If you could provide that, it would probably help.

Its quite simple. 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 days off. We work 0730-0730. Pretty much eight 24 hour shifts a month.

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2017, 21:54:01 »
Sounds like day workers being pissy to me.  Saw some of that crap when l was a shift worker.  Ironically, when my day worker bosses were shift workers they didn't have an issue taking leave like a shift worker.  I worked for some dicks back in the day.