Author Topic: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?  (Read 15648 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ballz

    ...

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 112,631
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,180
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2017, 22:03:46 »
Its quiet simple. 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 days off. We work 0730-0730. Pretty much eight 24 hour shifts a month.

So which days are "Weekend (Shiftworker)" exactly? That's important.

Looks like to me it's your 4 working days ( 0730 start on Monday, 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 0730 off on Thursday) and then 5 Weekend (Shift Worker), is that right?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 22:17:40 by ballz »
Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 210,235
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,428
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2017, 22:23:21 »
So which days are "Weekend (Shiftworker)" exactly? That's important.

Looks like to me it's your 4 working days ( 0730 start on Monday, 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 0730 off on Thursday) and then 5 Weekend (Shift Worker), is that right?

And...

Section 2.8 Shift Work, 2.8.01 Scheduling - 3rd para.

When working on a compressed schedule, time off must be earned in order to be taken (i.e. four days of work on a compressed schedule for three days off in a week). When a member requests annual leave, this leave must be granted based on a normal working week (i.e. not compressed) in order to ensure a member is not granted more than the allotted annual leave entitlement.

Example:A member who works four (4) 12-hour shift days in a scheduled work week (Monday to Thursday), earns a three-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling seven days in a week. The member then takes a week of leave using five annual days (Monday to Friday, where each day counts as a normal uncompressed workday) plus two weekend days, totalling seven days.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 22:25:52 by Eye In The Sky »
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline garb811

  • MP/MPO Question Answerer
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 68,365
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,368
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2017, 22:34:54 »
Pretty simple fix, adjust it so you work midnight to midnight.  Problem solved: 1 x 24 hr day of leave = 1 x 24 hr shift off.  But...I'm sure nobody would like that solution.

It's interesting that someone has approved this.  You can't tell me you are actually "working" a 24 hour shift in that you are awake and alert throughout that 24 hour period. How much of that time are you actually doing what would be considered "work" such as responding to an actual call, maintenance of equipment, professional development, running training scenarios etc, how much time is spent being awake on standby and how much is being spent asleep and on standby?

Edit to add:  My point with the last bit being...be careful what you wish for.  It could very well end up with people taking a very in depth and close look at what is actually going on resulting in some imposed changes to everything, not just the way the leave policy is being applied.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 22:41:06 by garb811 »

Offline ballz

    ...

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 112,631
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,180
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2017, 22:36:22 »
And...

Section 2.8 Shift Work, 2.8.01 Scheduling - 3rd para.

When working on a compressed schedule, time off must be earned in order to be taken (i.e. four days of work on a compressed schedule for three days off in a week). When a member requests annual leave, this leave must be granted based on a normal working week (i.e. not compressed) in order to ensure a member is not granted more than the allotted annual leave entitlement.

Example:A member who works four (4) 12-hour shift days in a scheduled work week (Monday to Thursday), earns a three-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling seven days in a week. The member then takes a week of leave using five annual days (Monday to Friday, where each day counts as a normal uncompressed workday) plus two weekend days, totalling seven days.

I'm trying to keep an open mind before stating how I think the policy should be applied on this.... but yeah... I was getting there. It looks to me like if you want to take those 2x 24 hr shifts off, you should be taking 7 annual + 2 weekend.... but I don't want to get too far ahead of myself.
Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 488,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,871
    • The job.

Offline garb811

  • MP/MPO Question Answerer
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 68,365
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,368

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 488,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,871
    • The job.
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2017, 23:13:54 »
Interesting, thanks.

You are welcome.  :)

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 80,725
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,753
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2017, 23:47:19 »
Pretty simple fix, adjust it so you work midnight to midnight.  Problem solved: 1 x 24 hr day of leave = 1 x 24 hr shift off.  But...I'm sure nobody would like that solution.

It's interesting that someone has approved this.  You can't tell me you are actually "working" a 24 hour shift in that you are awake and alert throughout that 24 hour period. How much of that time are you actually doing what would be considered "work" such as responding to an actual call, maintenance of equipment, professional development, running training scenarios etc, how much time is spent being awake on standby and how much is being spent asleep and on standby?

Edit to add:  My point with the last bit being...be careful what you wish for.  It could very well end up with people taking a very in depth and close look at what is actually going on resulting in some imposed changes to everything, not just the way the leave policy is being applied.

What you do during your work hours is irrelevant.  You are still physically at work and liable to be utilized.  You cannot be on leave.  Same thing if you are on standby at home, like the SAR folks do.

I have done a bunch of thise shifts, 24 hours straight at work, spending the night at work, on standby to be launched.  We were encouraged/obligated to rest in cass we were launched at 2AM for a 3-4 hour flight: you need to be rested to safely and effectively do this.  Same thing for firefighters.  National and local refugulation supported the rest.  FWIW, a Class A reservist that did one of thise shifts was paid 2 full days (the day he got in for, using the OP's number, 17 hours and the second day for 7 hours. 

Having said that, I never really cared to account my leave around that; I would take annual leave starting the day I got out.  I always end up with too much leave at the end of the year (with all the Holidays leave, short leave, half day here and there)

Offline QV

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 7,720
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 298
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2017, 00:09:25 »
Pretty simple fix, adjust it so you work midnight to midnight.  Problem solved: 1 x 24 hr day of leave = 1 x 24 hr shift off.  But...I'm sure nobody would like that solution. 

It's interesting that someone has approved this.  You can't tell me you are actually "working" a 24 hour shift in that you are awake and alert throughout that 24 hour period. How much of that time are you actually doing what would be considered "work" such as responding to an actual call, maintenance of equipment, professional development, running training scenarios etc, how much time is spent being awake on standby and how much is being spent asleep and on standby?

Edit to add:  My point with the last bit being...be careful what you wish for.  It could very well end up with people taking a very in depth and close look at what is actually going on resulting in some imposed changes to everything, not just the way the leave policy is being applied.

Lol....ffs you can’t be serious.


Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 488,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,871
    • The job.
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2017, 00:13:01 »
Any firehouse I have been in has beds.

And a BBQ!  :)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 09:15:17 by mariomike »

Offline captloadie

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 36,823
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 596
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2017, 08:25:02 »
The OP, I don't believe, is providing all the info. Perhaps he is leaving out the fact the individuals being "screwed" are perhaps in fact asking to get the following:
5 x shift days off
1 x special to cover 24hr shift
1 x day shift day off
1x special to cover 24hr shift
5x days shift days off
For a total of 13 days off for the cost of 2 x special. The same would be requested when short leave applies.

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 488,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,871
    • The job.
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2017, 09:48:41 »
Speaking of 24-hour shifts, how do CAF Firefighters like them?

In the city I live, our Firefighters voted to switch from 10/14 ( 10-hour day and 14-hour night ) to 24-hour shifts about six years ago.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 09:51:44 by mariomike »

Online SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 137,065
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,106
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2017, 09:55:10 »
Speaking of 24-hour shifts, how do CAF Firefighters like them?

In the city I live, our Firefighters voted to switch from 10/14 to 24-hour shifts about six years ago.

The DND fire hall (civilian employees) that I the most recent contact seemed to love it. They worked 7-8 shifts per month, before applying leave. If they covered a shift for someone on an another platoon, it was overtime. The rest of the month was theirs.

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 488,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,871
    • The job.
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2017, 10:34:22 »
Do CAF or DND Firefighters work the four-platoon system?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_plan#Four-platoon_schedules
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 10:39:33 by mariomike »

Offline danteh

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,265
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 162
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2017, 15:28:39 »
Do CAF or DND Firefighters work the four-platoon system?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_plan#Four-platoon_schedules

Yes.

I asked talked with my acting CWO today (actual one is on a tasking) and basically got told to let it go.

So now I am asking this;

Can I put in a memo asking for both short and special leave at the same time? I am going on 2 month tasking and I would normally just ask for 2 special before and after but cause I can only get 1 can I also ask for 1 short before and after? I meet the criteria on being able to ask for both.

Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 912,455
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,009
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2017, 17:53:59 »
You can ask for 2 short per month as much as you want. While there's no rule about short and special on the same leave pass, I would have your special leave (relocation prior to course) on a different leave pass as that is an entitlement, and the short leave is a request that can be denied. Will save you from having to redo the leave pass if the short is denied.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 210,235
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,428
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2017, 17:59:14 »
Yes.

I asked talked with my acting CWO today (actual one is on a tasking) and basically got told to let it go.

Not at all surprised.

Quote
So now I am asking this;

Can I put in a memo asking for both short and special leave at the same time? I am going on 2 month tasking and I would normally just ask for 2 special before and after but cause I can only get 1 can I also ask for 1 short before and after? I meet the criteria on being able to ask for both.

You can ask, but if they are being *the way they are* about leave, do you expect short in lieu of the Special?

I've posted the ref above that states "leave shall be given as it is for uncompressed work week folks". 

Special leave (Relocation) for a 2 month tasking is covered under Section 5.10 Special Leave (Relocation).

"In addition, Special Leave (Relocation) may also be granted, at the discretion of the home unit CO, for members who are away from their home unit on duty for operations/training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings within or outside Canada.

Special Leave (Relocation) in consideration of a member being sent away from their home unit on duty for operations, training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings, on a status other than posting or attached-posting (such as, but not limited to, Temporary Duty), may be denied, withheld or limited at the discretion of the CO.

Again, not saying I agree with how your unit is administering leave...just trying to point out policy that can help you decide if this is a hill worth taking and dying for.  Is part of the issue your unit isn't fully manned by any chance??  And when someone takes leave or tasked away from the unit, it is challenging to meet of the taskings that need to happen 'at home'...keeping shifts full, etc.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 18:25:45 by Eye In The Sky »
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 210,235
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,428
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2017, 18:01:16 »
special leave (relocation prior to course) on a different leave pass as that is an entitlement

Not quite...personally, I've never had Special leave for a course denied, but I've had it limited because of op tempo...
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 912,455
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,009
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2017, 18:02:45 »
Not quite...personally, I've never had Special leave for a course denied, but I've had it limited because of op tempo...

I don't have the leave manual handy, but I'm pretty sure operational reasons are the only way a CO can deny it (the special leave).

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 210,235
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,428
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2017, 18:09:26 »
Ref my reply a couple of posts up.  Also notable is the wording "maximum # of days" in the tables in Annex B of Chap 5 and the lack of the word shall.  But, below is the entire portion of Chap 5 (we're both correct...depending on the details of the tasking...attach posted is treated differently than TD, for example).

5.10.04 Withholding or Limiting Leave

Special Leave (Relocation) in consideration of a compulsory relocation on posting or attached-posting may be denied, withheld or limited only because of exigencies of the service such as time constraints in the event of a rapid deployment or operational reasons beyond the control of the CO. The authority that withholds or limits Special Leave (Relocation) in these situations shall be no lower than the Formation Commander or, in consideration of deployments to an international operation overseas, the force employing operational commander.

Special Leave (Relocation) in consideration of a member being sent away from their home unit on duty for operations, training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings, on a status other than posting or attached-posting (such as, but not limited to, Temporary Duty), may be denied, withheld or limited at the discretion of the CO.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 18:35:27 by Eye In The Sky »
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline ballz

    ...

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 112,631
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,180
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2017, 18:35:29 »
Admittedly, the leave manual is poorly designed to deal with shift-work, it's too bad the annual leave entitlement couldn't be flexible which would make all of this more simple.

But... This whole 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 days off... quite frankly, is so jammy I can't even see how it meets the spirit of so many days of Weekend (Shiftworker) and if it were ever scrutinized, I don't believe would be very defend-able. This is 5 days off for every 48 hours of work.

By the book, if you want to take those 2x 24 hour shifts off, you should be taking 7 annual and 2 weekend. There is a very good reason for this... if you only have to take 2 annual to get those 24 hours off, that means you take 4 annual to get 9 days off. Or in other words, you could use 25 annual to get 55 days off of work. There is a reason the leave manual states

Section 2.8 Shift Work, 2.8.01 Scheduling - 3rd para.

When working on a compressed schedule, time off must be earned in order to be taken (i.e. four days of work on a compressed schedule for three days off in a week). When a member requests annual leave, this leave must be granted based on a normal working week (i.e. not compressed) in order to ensure a member is not granted more than the allotted annual leave entitlement.

Example:A member who works four (4) 12-hour shift days in a scheduled work week (Monday to Thursday), earns a three-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling seven days in a week. The member then takes a week of leave using five annual days (Monday to Friday, where each day counts as a normal uncompressed workday) plus two weekend days, totalling seven days.

Weekend (Shiftworker), unlike annual, must be earned. In other words, you need to do your 24 on, 24 off, 24 on... to get those Weekend (Shiftworker) days. This is for pretty obvious reasons.

And you want to use 1x annual to get out of 1x 24 hr shift? Someone with 25 annual could literally take off 112 days straight.


I'm very surprised that people think his CoC is being arseholes... I think they are being too generous even at 2 annual for 1x 24 hr shift. Like I said, if you want a cycle off (so 9 days total), it should require 7 annual and 2 weekend, as per the leave manual.
Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?

Offline danteh

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,265
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 162
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2017, 18:37:03 »
You can ask, but if they are being *the way they are* about leave, do you expect short in lieu of the Special?

Well I am trying to figure it out because I am going on a tasking for 44 days, over two stat holidays (Xmas and Boxing Day) and I am having issues getting days off for it. As of right now I am working 24, waking up driving to the airport to start the task. When I am done I fly back and than start work the next morning. All I have been asking for is two days off before and after and getting shut down.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 210,235
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,428
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2017, 18:44:25 »
I'm very surprised that people think his CoC is being arseholes...

I am currently a shift working working 24 hour shifts (7am-7am) and we are being told that for us to take leave it requires two annual leave days to take off a single shift. We are also being told now (was find for a long time up until now) that short, special and holiday leave is now the same. 2 days for 1 day 24 hour shift off.

This part, makes sense to me because each mbr would have to take leave for a 0730-2359 timeframe and a 0000-0730 timeframe.  That's 2 calendar days/working days during 1 x 24 hour shift.

Quote
We have a bunch of guys going on courses and deployments looking to get the two special days before hand and the memos are getting kicked back now stating we don’t get two days only one because of this rule.


This part...perhaps its the wording but I read it as "we aren't given the possible maximum days off, ever"...this part I am not in agreement with as I understand it.  Leave is to be taken as it would be for an uncompressed work schedule, etc.  Not sure if the status for courses, etc is AP, TD, etc.  That also factors in.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 18:47:40 by Eye In The Sky »
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 210,235
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,428
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2017, 18:49:35 »
Well I am trying to figure it out because I am going on a tasking for 44 days, over two stat holidays (Xmas and Boxing Day) and I am having issues getting days off for it. As of right now I am working 24, waking up driving to the airport to start the task. When I am done I fly back and than start work the next morning. All I have been asking for is two days off before and after and getting shut down.

Is your tasking a posting/attach posting, TD?
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline danteh

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,265
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 162
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2017, 18:52:05 »
Is your tasking a posting/attach posting, TD?

Yes, TD.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 18:55:14 by danteh »