Author Topic: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?  (Read 15670 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 210,495
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,444
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2017, 18:59:06 »
Personally, I am of the mindset that CAF members should, if at all possible, get the max days off allowed in the Chap 5 Annexs before being away from their postal code and families.  I'm alittle biased;  my coworkers and myself spend a lot of days away from home and/or on standby and rarely do we ever get those days back even close to 1 for 1.  I'm writing this after another crew day away from my postal code. 

I also think, though, in your case, your unit...1 *shift* equals 2 days of leave, because your shift covers 2 calendar days.  IAW the LPM, the CO doesn't have the ability to grant 'partial' leave days except for Short.  If the CO is only giving you 1 *shift* off for Special, vice 1 *day* off...well...that unfortunately can easily be seen as meeting the spirit and intent of the LPM (IMO).

In the case of your specific upcoming TD that will include Christmas, I think your unit could revisit the scheduling plan and revise it so you had a day or 2 before your depart and when you get back.  I think this could easily fall in the "QOL/welfare of subordinates" part of the way we do business...and if I was your immediate superior, this is the approach I would take with your A/UCWO.  Have you discussed this with your immediate superior yet?   

Edit - ok, for TD...from Chap 5...have a read of a few earlier posts.  Its basically up to the CO to grant/limit, etc.

"Special Leave (Relocation) in consideration of a member being sent away from their home unit on duty for operations, training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings, on a status other than posting or attached-posting (such as, but not limited to, Temporary Duty), may be denied, withheld or limited at the discretion of the CO."
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 19:20:06 by Eye In The Sky »
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline Blackadder1916

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 164,715
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,831
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2017, 21:26:48 »
There were two grievance summaries that dealt with leave and shift workers.  While the circumstances of each were not exactly like the OP's situation, the results may provide some understanding on how it could play out if grieved.

https://www.canada.ca/en/military-grievances-external-review/services/case-summaries/case-2014-089.html

https://www.canada.ca/en/military-grievances-external-review/services/case-summaries/case-2013-002.html
Quote
. . . In reviewing the case, the Board was concerned by the IA's view that the duty/leave cycle was fair because it provided “adequate” or “sufficient” leave in the duty cycle while meeting the mission. The Board was of the view that it is not open to the CO to determine leave entitlements on the basis of what he judges he can afford while still fulfilling his operational mandate. Rather, the discretion available to the CO is found in the authority to grant or deny the leave. Leave entitlements are determined by the Canadian Forces leave policy. . . .

CDS Decision Summary
. . .  The FA was of the opinion that working beyond an average Monday-to-Friday schedule does not automatically mean that compensation has to be attributed. To work beyond normal work or shift schedules does not automatically entitle one to compensatory off-duty time. However, it is a command responsibility to ensure that adequate leave and off-duty time be provided to Canadian Armed Forces personnel. . . .
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

Offline MCG

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 206,635
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,725
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2017, 23:42:05 »
It should not take more than one day of leave to get 24 hours off.  But, it should also not be possible to take one day annual, one day weekend and one more day annual to get an eight day cycle off.

The problem here is misapplication of leave policy (which gives very specific arcs) to solve a separate scheduling problem.  If you take one day annual on what should be D1 of the 8 day cycle, then your D1 shifts to the left by one calendar day.  Take three annual and D1 shifts to what would be D4.  Maybe after 4 days of annual the system gives you a day of weekend, and with the consumption of six days annual you get two days of weekend (to make a full eight day cycle off).


Offline ballz

    ...

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 112,661
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,181
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2017, 00:48:22 »
It should not take more than one day of leave to get 24 hours off.

They aren't getting 24 hours off though, they are getting 48 hours off. For example, if my shift is 0730 Wednesday - 0730 Thursday.... I take that shift off, I am actually getting 48 hours off (0000 Monday until 2359 Tuesday)... I definitely need at least two annual. In this scenario, you come off work Tuesday at 0730... by taking that second 24 shift off, you are getting Wednesday and Thursday off.

But, it should also not be possible to take one day annual, one day weekend and one more day annual to get an eight day cycle off.

I'm being pedantic here because it's important in applying Weekend(Shiftworker) leave, but it's a 9-day cycle. 4 working days* and 5 Weekend(Shiftworker). If you look at how they compared it towards a normal Mon-Fri worker in the grievance analysis, the results are quite contrasting here. In any given 63-day period, a M-F worker has 18 non-working days, let's assume a stat or two, so 19-20... in this 9-day cycle, the shiftworker is getting 35.

*Let's say my 9-day cycle starts at 0730 on Monday...
My shifts are
0730 Monday - 0730 Tuesday
24 hrs off
0730 Wednesday - 0730 Thursday
5 days off

So 4 working days, 5 Weekend(Shiftworker)

The problem here is misapplication of leave policy (which gives very specific arcs) to solve a separate scheduling problem.

Agreed. Even if I knew all the different constraints and how the job works, I don't know if there'd be an easy answer with the constraints of the Leave Policy.

But I think in this case, the members are getting a pretty jammy go for days off...
Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?

Offline MCG

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 206,635
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,725
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2017, 01:33:47 »
They aren't getting 24 hours off though, ...
Of course, I never stated nor did I attempt to state what they are getting from a day of leave.  I stated what should be gotten.  Put that snipped out sentence back into context with the rest of the post and you see that.

I'm being pedantic here because it's important in applying Weekend(Shiftworker) leave, but it's a 9-day cycle. 4 working days* and 5 Weekend(Shiftworker).
Are you sure?  The OP has not used terms such as “working days” and “weekend”.  Others have used those terms, but I would want a reference to show those terms can be applied to interpret the OP’s words.  The OP described 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, then five days off.  In my mind, where the remainder of the schedule is in 24 hr blocks then five days off is a 120 hour block.

If I missed something, point me back to it (I am reading on a smart phone and I find it is easier to miss things on the little screen).  Otherwise, this may be a point for the OP to clarify.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 210,495
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,444
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2017, 01:41:35 »
If you look at how they compared it towards a normal Mon-Fri worker in the grievance analysis, the results are quite contrasting here. In any given 63-day period, a M-F worker has 18 non-working days, let's assume a stat or two, so 19-20... in this 9-day cycle, the shiftworker is getting 35.


However, in the case of an avg Mon-Fri worker, they are likely working 8-4 per duty day, and the 24hr folks are on duty for 3 times as much per shift.
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline ballz

    ...

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 112,661
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,181
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2017, 02:05:27 »
Are you sure?  The OP has not used terms such as “working days” and “weekend”.  Others have used those terms, but I would want a reference to show those terms can be applied to interpret the OP’s words.  The OP described 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, then five days off.  In my mind, where the remainder of the schedule is in 24 hr blocks then five days off is a 120 hour block.

If I missed something, point me back to it (I am reading on a smart phone and I find it is easier to miss things on the little screen).  Otherwise, this may be a point for the OP to clarify.

I am not "sure" as I have asked but didn't get responded to. The OP says 24 on- 24 off -24 on- 5 days off. But you're right, he could have meant 24/24/24/120. In that case, yeah it would be 4 working days and 4 Weekend(Shiftworker).

The reason I am assuming Weekend(Shiftworker) is because by the book, I can't see how there is any other way. As far as I know, it is either a duty day or you are on some kind of leave. A CO can't just call something a "non-working day" and therefore render the leave manual useless altogether. Whether it's a 9-day cycle or 8-day, the only thing within the authority of the CO to use to run this kind of cycle is Weekend(Shiftworker) leave. Which follows logically since that it is exactly what it is exists for.

Until positively shown otherwise, I am working off the assumption that this is 4 working days (covers the 24 on-24 off-24 on) and 5 days off, which would be Weekend(Shiftworker). x


However, in the case of an avg Mon-Fri worker, they are likely working 8-4 per duty day, and the 24hr folks are on duty for 3 times as much per shift.

Depending on which unit we are comparing it to (because every Unit varies... my current Unit is 0730 - 1600, so 44 hrs/week) in a 63-day period, the shift-worker on this 9-day cycle works an extra 28-56 hrs...... or 3-6 days if you consider 8 hours a normal work day" so 28-56 hrs, or 3-6 extra 8-hr shifts, however you want to measure it.... justifies an extra 15 more days off?

I guess I'd have to re-do all the math if this is an 8-day cycle. I hope it is, this should feel less lopsided.
Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?

Offline Loachman

  • Former Army Pilot in Drag
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 208,787
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,227
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2017, 06:48:46 »
I've only been casually watching this, and not attempting to solve the puzzle, but I am tending to view this in terms of TD.

Not all of the twenty-four-hour shift is "work", unless called out, right? Some of it is, yes, but some is also spent simply sleeping in a bed other than one's own. I frequently spent a fair amount of one to three days of TD, sometimes several times a month, during my early flying career. Each of the middle days represented a twenty-four-hour "shift", and the first and last day well more than the normal eight-hour workday, if one factors the sleeping-in-a-bed-other-than-one's-own aspect in. We never received additional time off for that, nor should we have.

I don't begrudge a shiftworker a little extra time off for the inconvenience of working evenings/nights/weekends and missing family time or living with disrupted circadian rhythms for a few years, but the shifts in question do not appear to do that - too much, at least - unless routinely called out over the full shift cycle. Even then, there appears to be full twenty-four-hour period for recovery and own-time after each.

A fair and consistent means of determining leave remains necessary, but I have no real idea what that would be.

Online mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 488,555
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,876
    • The job.
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2017, 08:35:10 »
Not all of the twenty-four-hour shift is "work", unless called out, right? Some of it is, yes, but some is also spent simply sleeping in a bed other than one's own.

Heard that from citizens for many years. I cried all the way to the bank.  :)

We could get into a Unit Hour Utilization ( UHU ) discussion. But, suffice to say,  it's "work" just being there. Regardless of how one measures productivity.

Pay and hours of work remain the same whether you are out breaking your back, enjoying a tasty BBQ, washing your car, watching your favorite TV show, or sleeping on the job. :)

FWIW, regarding scheduling, in the city I reside, firefighters work ten 24-hour shifts every six weeks, and paramedics work twenty 12-hour shifts every six weeks.

Impressed a scheduling discussion has gone on for three pages, and counting!


« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 10:16:32 by mariomike »

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 210,495
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,444
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2017, 10:15:35 »
I've only been casually watching this, and not attempting to solve the puzzle, but I am tending to view this in terms of TD.

Not all of the twenty-four-hour shift is "work", unless called out, right? Some of it is, yes, but some is also spent simply sleeping in a bed other than one's own. I frequently spent a fair amount of one to three days of TD, sometimes several times a month, during my early flying career. Each of the middle days represented a twenty-four-hour "shift", and the first and last day well more than the normal eight-hour workday, if one factors the sleeping-in-a-bed-other-than-one's-own aspect in. We never received additional time off for that, nor should we have.

I don't begrudge a shiftworker a little extra time off for the inconvenience of working evenings/nights/weekends and missing family time or living with disrupted circadian rhythms for a few years, but the shifts in question do not appear to do that - too much, at least - unless routinely called out over the full shift cycle. Even then, there appears to be full twenty-four-hour period for recovery and own-time after each.

A fair and consistent means of determining leave remains necessary, but I have no real idea what that would be.

I think we're starting to blurr the lines between "duty hours" and "work hours".  If we do that, we'd also have to factor in lunch breaks, smoke/coffee breaks, admin time, etc for the *normal* work week folks.  I don't know a single mbr who sits down in their workspace at 0800 and has at it until 1600.

I've been on Standby from 1600 Fri - 0800 Mon and not called in, but on duty the entire time just the same, although not at work.  I can't travel outside of my established boundaries, put in a leave pass, for the simple matter I am on duty over that period.
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline Loachman

  • Former Army Pilot in Drag
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 208,787
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,227
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2017, 12:26:29 »
I fully understand these aspects, which all need to be properly considered when constructing a fair and consistent means of determining leave for those who lead non-standard (within the CF) work lives - something that is unlikely to happen, unfortunately.

But then much of the CF also leads non-standard work lives for various periods - long- or short-term TD, exercises, deployments, long voyages on the briny ocean tossed - and that is why the leave policy, overall, is so generous.


Offline Nerf herder

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 24,466
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,054
  • The usual suspect.
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2017, 15:28:00 »
So, 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 days off?

Sign me up for this trade!

Regards
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.--Ben Franklin

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
    -Norman Schwartzkopf

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

    Is a pinball wizard.

  • Lab Experiment #13
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 239,930
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,737
  • WHERE IS MY BATON?
    • http://www.canadianbands.com./home.html
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2017, 17:15:58 »
So, 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 days off?

Sign me up for this trade!

Regards

What?......and give up your 24 on, 24 on, 24 on, 24 on,................?
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

Everybody has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Offline garb811

  • MP/MPO Question Answerer
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 69,235
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,376
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2017, 22:12:08 »
Heard that from citizens for many years. I cried all the way to the bank.  :)

We could get into a Unit Hour Utilization ( UHU ) discussion. But, suffice to say,  it's "work" just being there. Regardless of how one measures productivity.

Pay and hours of work remain the same whether you are out breaking your back, enjoying a tasty BBQ, washing your car, watching your favorite TV show, or sleeping on the job. :)

FWIW, regarding scheduling, in the city I reside, firefighters work ten 24-hour shifts every six weeks, and paramedics work twenty 12-hour shifts every six weeks.

Impressed a scheduling discussion has gone on for three pages, and counting!
Mariomike, you have a tendency at times to equate civilian scenarios onto the military world as if they are mirror images of each other, which they aren't.  For instance, in this case, civilian (even DND civilian) firefighters negotiate their pay and benefits with the employer.  And that includes the conditions of work.  For those of us in the military, that doesn't happen; one set of pay and benefits apply no matter what the conditions of work.  That ends up in policies that have wiggle room and room for interpretation as to how those policies apply to non-standard examples.

So, if we use the idea that 24 hours of work (whether that be time spent actually working, time spent on standby at work watching the hockey game or time spent asleep), followed by 24 hours off completely, and then another 24 hour work cycle results in five days off, how do we square that with folks posted aboard ship where they are "at work" for the entire time they at sea?  The Army when they deploy on exercise?  When we deploy on Ops?  What about guys like EiTS who spend an entire weekend on call who I am guessing is still expected to show up for normal duty on Monday morning if they haven't launched?  The various other people who are put on call without compensation (Duty JAG, Duty MO, Military Police Duty Officer, Duty Supply Tech, Duty Image Tech, the IRU each Bde maintains on reduced notice to move...)? We certainly aren't compensating those personnel (who are entitled to the same basic benefits as a firefighter in a firehall) to anything near the standard that is happening in this situation.  If we did that...nobody would be at work, ever.

We in the military are given a lot of latitude as to being flexible with the work hours of people in order to make up for some of those discrepancies.  For instance, if someone has to go take their kid to the dentist at two in the afternoon and the member has nothing that "requires" them to be at work, the general attitude is the person is out the door and done for the day; they don't need to put in a leave pass.  Same thing for stuff like medical and dental appointments, hell, even PT time.  For us that is "duty" type stuff so we go during working hours but in the civilian world, the vast majority of people don't have that flexibility.  If they want to do that kind of stuff, they are going off the clock and using one type of leave or another because the employer has an expectation that that person is going to work for the hours they are mandated to work...if they want to keep their job.

As a result of that flexibility though, there is a requirement that what we do is within defensible bounds.  When it gets out of control, that is when push back happens, such as with the Navy's sliders.  I knew guys who headed home after soup on Friday on a regular basis and after lunch, the Dockyard was pretty much a ghost town.  When the unions called foul because they were being blamed for work not getting done on the ships, the Admiral had no choice but to make sliders go away (although if I was a betting man, they have slowly crept back in).

And then there are the unintended consequences where having people work certain periods of times kicks in entitlements that they otherwise wouldn't have that increases the costs for the CAF.  In this instance, all of the firefighters working that shift are now entitled to rations at public expense for their duty period.  There is also the fact that there is now less time available for the folks working these shifts to do the other military oriented stuff that needs to be done because out of that 24 hour period, I don't think it would be reasonable to expect them to be "working" from 0730 hrs to 2300 hrs (or whenever bedtime is) whereas my observation is that during a 12-13 hour night shift, at least a portion of those waking hours were spent doing "work" related activities before winding it down for the night and the day shift followed a pretty standard day routine of anyone else on the base.

Looking at it from the viewpoint of someone who has subordinates who work shift, this schedule is causing problems for the supervisors.  Maybe it is keeping enough people on shift, maybe it is getting people's annual leave expended.  I don't know what the actual issue is that has caused the local leave policy to be changed so that the they need to take 2 days leave for 1 shift off but my gut is telling me that if this gets "pushed" via a redress or something, the whole scheme is going to fall apart.

I think we're starting to blurr the lines between "duty hours" and "work hours".  If we do that, we'd also have to factor in lunch breaks, smoke/coffee breaks, admin time, etc for the *normal* work week folks.  I don't know a single mbr who sits down in their workspace at 0800 and has at it until 1600.
True, but on the other hand, every place I have been have a standing order which designates working hours, including lunch and breaks.  Makes it much easier to ding the problem children who can't get out of bed in the morning.

Edit to add:  We have a similar problem with our shift workers and it really comes to a head when posting season rolls around and shift workers are posted to an Embassy.  8 days of special relocation can equate to 3 weeks of time off if not managed properly.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 22:55:55 by garb811 »

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 80,775
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,756
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2017, 22:28:54 »
garb,

The difference between someone on duty at home and a firefighter on duty or a fighter pilot/technician in the QRA is that we are tied to out place of employment.  You cannot leave your place of duty because of the response times expected of you.  You literally have to sleep in a room next to the jet /firetruck in case you get launched.  I can't even work out in good conscience because that means having to change into PT clothes and eventually take a shower.  Having that responsibility is quite fatiguing even if you are "resting".  I have never really gotten out of the QRA well rested even if nothing happens.  When something happenned, I would be a bag of hammers the next day...

As far as Operations go, there is leave to compensate for that. (HLTA, pre/post-deployment leave)

Online mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 488,555
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,876
    • The job.
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2017, 22:50:09 »
Mariomike, you have a tendency at times to equate civilian scenarios onto the military world as if they are mirror images of each other, which they aren't.  For instance, in this case, civilian (even DND civilian) firefighters negotiate their pay and benefits with the employer.  And that includes the conditions of work.  For those of us in the military, that doesn't happen; one set of pay and benefits apply no matter what the conditions of work.  That ends up in policies that have wiggle room and room for interpretation as to how those policies apply to non-standard examples.

So, if we use the idea that 24 hours of work (whether that be time spent actually working, time spent on standby at work watching the hockey game or time spent asleep), followed by 24 hours off completely, and then another 24 hour work cycle results in five days off, how do we square that with folks posted aboard ship where they are "at work" for the entire time they at sea?  The Army when they deploy on exercise?  When we deploy on Ops?  What about guys like EiTS who spend an entire weekend on call who I am guessing is still expected to show up for normal duty on Monday morning if they haven't launched?  The various other people who are put on call without compensation (Duty JAG, Duty MO, Military Police Duty Officer, Duty Supply Tech, Duty Image Tech, the IRU each Bde maintains on reduced notice to move...)? We certainly aren't compensating those personnel (who are entitled to the same basic benefits as a firefighter in a firehall) to anything near the standard that is happening in this situation.  If we did that...nobody would be at work, ever.

We in the military are given a lot of latitude as to being flexible with the work hours of people in order to make up for some of those discrepancies.  For instance, if someone has to go take their kid to the dentist at two in the afternoon and the member has nothing that "requires" them to be at work, the general attitude is the person is out the door and done for the day; they don't need to put in a leave pass.  Same thing for stuff like medical and dental appointments, hell, even PT time.  For us that is "duty" type stuff so we go during working hours but in the civilian world, the vast majority of people don't have that flexibility.  If they want to do that kind of stuff, they are going off the clock and using one type of leave or another because the employer has an expectation that that person is going to work for the hours they are mandated to work...if they want to keep their job.

As a result of that flexibility though, there is a requirement that what we do is within defensible bounds.  When it gets out of control, that is when push back happens, such as with the Navy's sliders.  I knew guys who headed home after soup on Friday on a regular basis and after lunch, the Dockyard was pretty much a ghost town.  When the unions called foul because they were being blamed for work not getting done on the ships, the Admiral had no choice but to make sliders go away (although if I was a betting man, they have slowly crept back in).

And then there are the unintended consequences where having people work certain periods of times kicks in entitlements that they otherwise wouldn't have that increases the costs for the CAF.  In this instance, all of the firefighters working that shift are now entitled to rations at public expense for their duty period.  There is also the fact that there is now less time available for the folks working these shifts to do the other military oriented stuff that needs to be done because out of that 24 hour period, I don't think it would be reasonable to expect them to be "working" from 0730 hrs to 2300 hrs (or whenever bedtime is) whereas my observation is that during a 12-13 hour night shift, at least a portion of those waking hours were spent doing "work" related activities before winding it down for the night and the day shift followed a pretty standard day routine of anyone else on the base.

Looking at it from the viewpoint of someone who has subordinates who work shift, this schedule is causing problems for the supervisors.  Maybe it is keeping enough people on shift, maybe it is getting people's annual leave expended.  I don't know what the actual issue is that has caused the local leave policy to be changed so that the they need to take 2 days leave for 1 shift off but my gut is telling me that if this gets "pushed" via a redress or something, the whole scheme is going to fall apart.
True, but on the other hand, every place I have been have a standing order which designates working hours, including lunch and breaks.  Makes it much easier to ding the problem children who can't get out of bed in the morning.

Edit to add:  We have a similar problem with out shift workers and it really comes to a head when posting season rolls around and shift workers posted to an Embassy.  8 days of special relocation can equate to 3 weeks of time off if not managed properly.

 :goodpost:

Offline garb811

  • MP/MPO Question Answerer
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 69,235
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,376
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2017, 22:50:48 »
Max:

Trust me, I get it. A large part of my career has been spent working shift, or being on the MPDO roster.  I also had a posting where, for a period of time due to schedules, we were allowed to go to ground as long as we remained gunned up and ready to roll...yeah, not restful at all but I was still more rested than when circumstances changed and I had to be up for the entire shift period.  As the MPDO, depending on the Base, that could result in multiple calls at night over the course of a duty week, and even trips into the guardhouse if the issue was significant enough.  To say that I was well rested at any point in my time at a busy base as a "day worker", even though my duty was "at home", would be a stretch.

Question for you ref time in the QRA.  How often is the duty cycle pulled on average and what is the time off when you come off the 24 hr period?

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 80,775
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,756
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2017, 23:30:46 »
Max:

Trust me, I get it. A large part of my career has been spent working shift, or being on the MPDO roster.  I also had a posting where, for a period of time due to schedules, we were allowed to go to ground as long as we remained gunned up and ready to roll...yeah, not restful at all but I was still more rested than when circumstances changed and I had to be up for the entire shift period.  As the MPDO, depending on the Base, that could result in multiple calls at night over the course of a duty week, and even trips into the guardhouse if the issue was significant enough.  To say that I was well rested at any point in my time at a busy base as a "day worker", even though my duty was "at home", would be a stretch.

Question for you ref time in the QRA.  How often is the duty cycle pulled on average and what is the time off when you come off the 24 hr period?

Sure you pulled these shifts but you still had the liberty to go about and do get a coffee at Timmies if you wanted.

When I got on squadron, I would go to work on the day I got out of the QRA.  I basically didn't get time off for QRA per se.  I would go to work and often fly a sortie that day.  I would be bagged at he end of the day though and most times had to go back in the QRA the next day.  A week of that really took its toll.  Towards the end of my second tour, we would have the day after we got out off but we were on duty from home.  There was nothing else in terms of compensation.  As a note, anytime we had to sleep in the QRA, we were given the incidental allowance.

Like I said, I am not one that seeks more leave than I already have: for my personnal taste, my yearly leave entitlement is a little too much.  I wish I could accumulate for future use rather than use it on time off that is not really enjoyable (spouse working for example). Having said that, I can understand that people would think they get shortchanged.  My belief is if you are expected to sleep at work because we may need you, any calendar day you were physically at work should count towards something.  Perhaps if we use something like reserve day accounting for duty day (less than 6 hours in a day at work counts towards 1/2 duty day) would work better.

In this case, if you change over at 6AM or 7PM, 24 hrs at work equals 1.5 duty days vs 2.  The remaining 1/2 day would be rest.  On a 2 on/2 off/2 on schedule, it would mean you actually worked 5 days and fot 2 days off, which would be on par with everybody else.  For every 6 calendar days, you would get 2 full days off vs the normal 2 for 7 days.  This would account for the hardhip of sleeping at work and all..

This would mean a massive overhaul on how we reckon leave but it could be done (we somewhat do that for short already).

Offline garb811

  • MP/MPO Question Answerer
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 69,235
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,376
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #68 on: October 27, 2017, 00:56:08 »
Sure you pulled these shifts but you still had the liberty to go about and do get a coffee at Timmies if you wanted.
Lol, I joined in 85.  Timmies didn't exist in my neck of the woods when I started doing shifts and, back in that day and age, even if you were off base for duty reasons, if you got caught stopping at a McDonalds or a coffee shop...things went very bad for you.

I was also posted to an Embassy which was manned 24/7.  There was no opportunity to get out of the Embassy, at any time, for any reason, while on shift as we were one person and in uniform.  Because of where CSC was located, there was no television and no internet as DFAIT hadn't rolled out their world wide network yet.  Night shifts were pretty awesome, basically 3-4 hours of getting stuff done before you locked the Embassy down for the night and then 7-8 hours sitting by yourself, in a box, watching security cameras, monitoring the alarm systems and reading the literary classics of Zane Gray and Harlequin Romances that the Legion was kind enough to send in welfare boxes 2-3 times a year, except for two security patrols of the empty building that took about 20 min if you walked really, really slowly... So, yeah, I do get it.

Quote
When I got on squadron, I would go to work on the day I got out of the QRA.  I basically didn't get time off for QRA per se.  I would go to work and often fly a sortie that day.  I would be bagged at he end of the day though and most times had to go back in the QRA the next day.  A week of that really took its toll.  Towards the end of my second tour, we would have the day after we got out off but we were on duty from home.  There was nothing else in terms of compensation.  As a note, anytime we had to sleep in the QRA, we were given the incidental allowance.
I'm not surprised you were a mess, the last few hours of a night shift and the next two days I was done.  A week of what you were pulling is insanity.  How did that reconcile with your crew day?  My understanding was those were hard and fast rules that didn't get broken?  Incidentals is also very interesting, first I have heard of that being done for duty pers.  It would certainly bring some sanity to what the Army does where each Bn/Regt seems to have a Duty Officer, Duty Sgt, Duty Cpl and Duty driver on for 24 hour periods on top of the Garrison duty folks.

Quote
My belief is if you are expected to sleep at work because we may need you, any calendar day you were physically at work should count towards something.  Perhaps if we use something like reserve day accounting for duty day (less than 6 hours in a day at work counts towards 1/2 duty day) would work better.
I don't disagree with you, and would stretch it to include some form of compensation for any stand-by time because really, you're still on duty if you are tied to a Blackberry and have to be immediately ready to either provide direction or head into work or whatever. 

The civilian world deals with that via shift premiums for people who work night shift, "jammy" shift rotations, overtime, and stand-by pay.  Unfortunately, we in the military can't even agree what shift work is, so I doubt there is going to be any kind of consensus on how to properly account and compensate for any of that.

Offline Nerf herder

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 24,466
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,054
  • The usual suspect.
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2017, 05:50:28 »
All these shifts sound horrible.  /sarcasm

At least you weren't being rocketed, mortared shot at every day for months on end even while "off shift".

Try to keep some perspective folks....you have a bed, a roof over your head and no one is actively trying to kill you. Life is good.

Regards
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.--Ben Franklin

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
    -Norman Schwartzkopf

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 80,775
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,756
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2017, 08:52:10 »
You are compensated when you are in an environment that has bullets and rockets flying around.  With RA and tax free salary.

Because your life is not immediately threatened doesn't mean you shouln't get fair and sufficient time off for out of ordinary shifts.

Offline CountDC

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 27,625
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,510
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2017, 14:12:59 »
Over complicating this.

In a shift as presented they work 48 hours (2 days on of 24 hours). In a normal shift of 8 hour days (yeah we all get it that not everyone works it but that is what is considered a normal work day) over the same period of 8 days you would be expected to work 48 hours.  Under the normal schedule to take off the 8 days you would have to use 6 days of leave thus iaw with the leave manual the shift worker should use 6 days to get the same period off.

You are not getting screwed, you are getting off easy,   it should be 3 days annual for taking a scheduled 24 hour work day off as under a normal schedule it would take 3 days (3 X 8) vice the 2 days they are enforcing. 

and in case anyone is wondering - both schedules get 144 hours off in the 8 day period. Below is a chart showing the schedule.  I actually did this for four 8 day schedules in a row and regardless of the day you start on it works out the same.

Shift                                          Normal
mon      on   24         8   on   16
tue      off      24      8   on   16
wed      on   24         8   on   16
thu      off      24      8   on   16
fri      off      24      8   on   16
sat      off      24      0   off   24
sun      off      24      0   off   24
mon      off      24      8   on   16
      48          144              48   144



 
"When the power of love, overcomes the love of power....the world will know peace" - Jimi Hendrix [1942-1970]

Offline Towards_the_gap

  • 'Just tell your wife, that she owes your life, to a muddy old engineer'
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 36,670
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 904
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2017, 16:25:57 »
I've been watching this thread with interest as a former ground pounder and now as someone who works the 24 hr shift. To be honest, I'm too baffled by the regulations quoted here to debate the meaning and intent of the CF Leave Manual, hell I rarely paid attention to it when I was in!

But I will say this, yes the 24hr shift pattern is a good go. Stating that your 'unit is getting screwed for leave' is kinda pushing it I would say, and I would be wary of charging up this particular hill. You may expend 'leadership capital' that could be put to better use elsewhere.

By all means ask for the extra leave, but when it gets turned down, if it does, perhaps just take it as one of those military things, grumble about it over morning coffee, and worry about how else you can improve your workplace/team.

Just my 2c.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 210,495
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,444
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2017, 16:28:19 »
CountDC,

Sorry, how would it take 3 x Ann Days to take 2 calendar days of leave exactly?  Shift starts at 0730, ends on 0730.  That's 2 calendar days, from 0000-2359 each. 
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline MCG

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 206,635
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,725
Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2017, 18:53:22 »
CountDC,
Your math works if every eight day cycle starts on a Monday, but (since our weeks are only seven days long) I think we can agree that is not the reality.  Check your model for a Saturday or Sunday start to the eight day cycle and tell us who has more hours.  Or, just extend the math out to 56 days (a common termination point for both seven and eight day cycles) and tell us how the hours are different.

But it does not matter, because the CAF does not account for leave or work days in terms of hours.

The funny thing about shift work is that it is scheduled.  So if you are supposed to work Monday and Wednesday but put in for leave from Monday to Wednesday, that should not mean you get a full 8 day cycle of no work.  You should be working Thursday and Friday instead.  As long as scheduling shifts right (never left) to accommodate days of leave, then at the end of the year it works out to you having used the 25 days (depending on TI) to which you are entitled.