Author Topic: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?  (Read 15720 times)

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Offline QV

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2017, 19:00:52 »
And then when a day worker puts in for Monday to Friday off surely they will be working Saturday and Sunday, right?  If not then it should cost two annual for the weekend as well.... because that is what you are suggesting for the shift worker.


Offline MCG

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2017, 19:54:07 »
And then when a day worker puts in for Monday to Friday off surely they will be working Saturday and Sunday, right?  If not then it should cost two annual for the weekend as well.... because that is what you are suggesting for the shift worker.
No I am not.  Read earlier posts and you will see I have addressed weekends.  If someone on the eight day cycles were to take three days annual, they should be given a day of weekend to take with it.  At five days of annual, there would be a second day of weekend tied to the leave.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2017, 20:33:55 »
And then when a day worker puts in for Monday to Friday off surely they will be working Saturday and Sunday, right?  If not then it should cost two annual for the weekend as well.... because that is what you are suggesting for the shift worker.

How is that when you take into consideration the policy  states:

1.1.12 Leave

Leave means absence from duty approved by an approving authority.  [meaning, non working/duty days in any mbr's schedule are not Ann Lve days.  Including all the Mon-Fri folks who aren't on duty every weekend, but aren't burning Ann Lve either].

1.1.24 Working Day

Working day means a day of paid service on which an officer or non-commissioned member is regularly scheduled to perform duty.

Section 2.2 Reckoning Time

2.2.01 Reckoning Time

Except in the case of short leave, leave begins at 0000 hours on the commencement date and ends at 2400 hours on the last day of leave.

Weekends, designated holidays and other holidays (listed in Annex A of this chapter), or in the case of shift workers, their scheduled non-working days (designated as weekends on the CF100); shall not be charged against any leave that is granted in working days although such days will normally form part of the leave period.


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Offline garb811

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2017, 20:41:12 »
CountDC: Your idea also runs smack into:

Quote
Section 2.2 Reckoning Time
2.2.01 Reckoning Time

Except in the case of short leave, leave begins at 0000 hours on the commencement date and ends at 2400 hours on the last day of leave.

Weekends, designated holidays and other holidays (listed in Annex A of this chapter), or in the case of shift workers, their scheduled non-working days (designated as weekends on the CF100); shall not be charged against any leave that is granted in working days although such days will normally form part of the leave period.

McG:  Your idea runs into the problem of the actual shift schedule and getting the person back on to their actual shift as well.

Looking at the leave manual, there has been an amendment at some point to the shift worker section from what was originally published.  The example provided never existed, it was how many Guardhouses were doing it (in order to take "days off" as a shift worker you first needed to earn them by working the actual shift) but when the leave manual came out it only talked about "scheduled days" and "scheduled days off" without providing any kind of example which resulted in us giving leave as per the published leave schedule (ie. as long as it was a scheduled shift day off, you got it as a shift worker whether it had been earned or not).

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2017, 21:01:08 »
The real problem here is that 25 annual leave days (and pretty much everything else in the leave manual) is meant to solve a leave problem for M-F type workers.

Weekend(Shiftworker) was thrown in to help manage shiftworkers, but if one annual got you out of one working day, shiftworkers would be able to get an obscene amount of leave. So they added the caveat that annual leave will be taken in calendar days, just like M-F workers. That doesn't fit so nicely into managing a shift schedule.

Ideally, I would look at it like this... Someone with 25 annual gets 5x 7-day periods off of work, or 35 days non-working days. Give someone the shifts off that gets them that... If you have an 8 day cycle with 2x 24hr shifts in it, you get to take 9 full shifts off throughout the year, no complications. That gets you 36 days of non-working days.

Keep track of all the other days off we get as M-F workers... stats holidays, "traditional" short days (the ones we always seem to get out of historical practice, depending on your unit... like 4 short during xmas break, 2 short for march break), the special at Xmas, etc... let's say they add up to another 10* non-working days. You get an additional 2 shifts you can take off, which will give you an additional 8 non-working days.

So now M-F workers get their 25 annual, 8-day cycle shiftworkers get their 11 shifts off.... M-F workers get 45 non-working days, shiftworkers get 44.... that's pretty fackin' fair.

Unfortunately, the leave manual does not provide this level of flexibility for Commanders... the other (smaller) issue is how to prorate that for someone who gets posted in half-way through the fiscal year.


*The number 10 was pulled out of my ***, I'm sure it's more like 20.
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Offline kratz

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2017, 21:25:02 »
My mother always said, "life isn't fair".
These days, people are too concerned with what is "fair".

The problem with accounting for "fair", is who thinks the work vs time off is "fair".

In the past 20+ years, we've experienced "adjustments" to the pay and benefits package,
and the results of this living experiment has been a disaster.  For each change made, it has ultimately resulted
in a savings for the taxpayer and more disgruntlement for MilPers.

Assuming everyone in a unit is getting screwed is a poor position to start from.
If the OP can offer his unit a solution to his issue, do so.

When you are posted to your next position and find it to your liking,
will you (and everyone in your situation) give up benefits to even things out, to be fair?
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #81 on: October 28, 2017, 15:28:43 »
But this has zero to do with pay and benefits package. It has to do with people who don't work "civie hours" in the military, what the CAF policy is regarding administering their leave and NWDs.

Some of us are at units where we do weekends on Standby, regularly. On top of that, we spend a large amount of time away from home on TDs, taskings, deployments.  We are ALSO CAF members who have lives and wives/significant others, families.  Should those working non-standard weeks be penalized and "suck it up" because it requires commands and commanders effort to come up with work and rest schedules that adhere to the LPM? 

Here's a simple solution;  follow policy, and when in doubt, follow policy.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/leave-policy.page

Application

Unless otherwise indicated, this manual applies to all members of the Canadian Forces (CF).

- Can't figure the manual out, or not sure if what you're doing is in line with the spirit/intent of the Manual?

Inquiries

Director General Compensation and Benefits (DGCB)/Directorate Pay Policy Development (DPPD).


Speaking  as a designated shiftworker who is the type that spends a LOT of weekends on Standby, TD, tasking and/or deployments, I can assure you that if you spent as much time as I do away from home or on duty (away from the unit, but still on the leash), you'd be as interested in "fair amounts of time off" as I am.  I don't get paid overtime, right?

Lastly...

My mother always said, "life isn't fair".
These days, people are too concerned with what is "fair".

I doubt will see a similar quote as part of the formal Jnr NCO or Jnr Officer leadership training in the CAF.  No disrespect to your mom intended (seriously).

Being FAIR is actually a part of being a leader.

https://www.rmcc-cmrc.ca/en/training-wing/your-goal-officer-canadian-armed-forces

Fairness:  You treat everybody justly, equitably and without prejudice

« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 16:56:54 by Eye In The Sky »
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #82 on: October 28, 2017, 16:07:58 »
Part of the problem in your fleet is that they made a decision a number of years ago to cut the number of combat ready crews- except that the business never went away.

Fewer crews just did more.

We suffer from the same problem in MH...

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2017, 16:19:26 »
Part of the problem in your fleet is that they made a decision a number of years ago to cut the number of combat ready crews- except that the business never went away.

Fewer crews just did more.

We suffer from the same problem in MH...

Definitely, and I've heard of the..challenges hitting both the East and West coast for MH at townhall my trade had with our CWOs back in the spring.  My fleet (and unit, for the matter) isn't the only one working hard, by any means.  However, I don't think people who've never lived and breathed in a flying Sqn understand or believe how busy it is.

A 3+ year sustained operation will also tap into already stretched resources, and add to the fatigue.

ASW is dead, after all...isn't it? 
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 16:41:55 by Eye In The Sky »
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline CountDC

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2017, 11:30:40 »
CountDC,
Your math works if every eight day cycle starts on a Monday, but (since our weeks are only seven days long) I think we can agree that is not the reality.  Check your model for a Saturday or Sunday start to the eight day cycle and tell us who has more hours.  Or, just extend the math out to 56 days (a common termination point for both seven and eight day cycles) and tell us how the hours are different.

But it does not matter, because the CAF does not account for leave or work days in terms of hours.

The funny thing about shift work is that it is scheduled.  So if you are supposed to work Monday and Wednesday but put in for leave from Monday to Wednesday, that should not mean you get a full 8 day cycle of no work.  You should be working Thursday and Friday instead.  As long as scheduling shifts right (never left) to accommodate days of leave, then at the end of the year it works out to you having used the 25 days (depending on TI) to which you are entitled.
 

I did originally do the 8 day cycle for 4 different start days and the 8 days still worked out the same. I took your suggestion of running 56 days and you are right that it does run into a problem as the shift worker will have done 336 hours while the normal worker has done 320 hours, a difference of 16 hours/2 days.  Once you pass the 40 day mark is when it becomes unstable.
 
It doesn't count leave in hours but it does compare off work schedules based on hours and determines leave based on what it considers a normal work week which is 8 hours a day with half hour for lunch.  Thus at 8 hours a day a 24 hour shift equates to 3 days of a normal work schedule and requires 3 days of leave.  Problem is that does not look at a full cycle of 56 days or year.  I did the near approximation expanding the 56 days to a full year (365 days) and that ends up with the shift worker accumulating 13 days of extra work (rounding off). 

With the rough calculations the members could be given a plan of 2 days of leave for every shift day off and then the CO could grant 9 days short to cover the rest of the extra days worked in a year.  Of course there will be those that will argue everyone working the so called normal work week actually works a lot more but that doesn't count as compared to scheduled work hours. These are scheduled for the members and thus they should be compensated.

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2017, 11:48:09 »
Or, as a domestic capability that's not deployed, we could civilianize the base/wing fire service functions, and only keep the bare minimum required to force generate for deployments...
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2017, 12:54:45 »
Or, as a domestic capability that's not deployed, we could civilianize the base/wing fire service functions, and only keep the bare minimum required to force generate for deployments...

Now that we don't take RCAF fire fighters to sea anymore, or wont be very soon, I really cant see why this wont become a reality.
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Offline Furniture

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2017, 13:47:28 »
I did originally do the 8 day cycle for 4 different start days and the 8 days still worked out the same. I took your suggestion of running 56 days and you are right that it does run into a problem as the shift worker will have done 336 hours while the normal worker has done 320 hours, a difference of 16 hours/2 days.  Once you pass the 40 day mark is when it becomes unstable.
 
It doesn't count leave in hours but it does compare off work schedules based on hours and determines leave based on what it considers a normal work week which is 8 hours a day with half hour for lunch.  Thus at 8 hours a day a 24 hour shift equates to 3 days of a normal work schedule and requires 3 days of leave.  Problem is that does not look at a full cycle of 56 days or year.  I did the near approximation expanding the 56 days to a full year (365 days) and that ends up with the shift worker accumulating 13 days of extra work (rounding off). 

With the rough calculations the members could be given a plan of 2 days of leave for every shift day off and then the CO could grant 9 days short to cover the rest of the extra days worked in a year.  Of course there will be those that will argue everyone working the so called normal work week actually works a lot more but that doesn't count as compared to scheduled work hours. These are scheduled for the members and thus they should be compensated.

I didn't take note of it in your original post, but have you accounted for the stat holidays in your yearly calculation? If not it would work out that a shift worker on an 8 day cycle working an extra 21 days a year. As a former shift worker, and current  supervisor of shift workers I find this discussion interesting.

Offline trigger

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2017, 14:13:29 »
Now that we don't take RCAF fire fighters to sea anymore, or wont be very soon, I really cant see why this wont become a reality.



and it should become a reality imo, speaking as another member of the trade

Offline CountDC

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Re: Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?
« Reply #89 on: November 03, 2017, 15:43:56 »
I didn't take note of it in your original post, but have you accounted for the stat holidays in your yearly calculation? If not it would work out that a shift worker on an 8 day cycle working an extra 21 days a year. As a former shift worker, and current  supervisor of shift workers I find this discussion interesting.

Nope because if you look at the leave manual it already addresses this - the CO is responsible to ensure any stats that you are required to work is still given at a later date.  If the CO is doing his job properly you should be receiving your stat at some point (say the next time off you want) instead of taking annual.
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