Author Topic: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre  (Read 13367 times)

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Offline mariomike

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2017, 15:22:09 »
I would also support having breathalyzers on all cars to avoid such things (if it were to ever be feasible) for the same reasons.

It will never be perfect, but progress in safety is being made. At least as far as traffic fatalities are concerned.

In the US, the 32,479 traffic fatalities in 2011 were the lowest in 62 years (1949).
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-12-08/u-s-highway-deaths-decline-2-9-falling-for-fifth-year-1-

Offline FSTO

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2017, 15:25:14 »
When I was going to high school in rural SW Manitoba during the late 70's, I would hazard to guess that of all the pickups in the student parking lot 75% would have at least a .22 behind the seat if not on the gun rack in the back window. During hunting season shot-guns and high powered rifles would also be included in the armoury.

We had our bullying issues and screwed up kids but there was never even a thought that someone would go get the gun out of the truck and start shooting up the school. Different time for sure.

Offline mariomike

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2017, 15:38:12 »
When I was going to high school in rural SW Manitoba during the late 70's, I would hazard to guess that of all the pickups in the student parking lot 75% would have at least a .22 behind the seat if not on the gun rack in the back window.

Couldn't resist.  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjYAEtO-Ohk
01:45

Offline GAP

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2017, 15:48:15 »
When I was going to high school in rural SW Manitoba during the late 70's, I would hazard to guess that of all the pickups in the student parking lot 75% would have at least a .22 behind the seat if not on the gun rack in the back window. During hunting season shot-guns and high powered rifles would also be included in the armoury.

We had our bullying issues and screwed up kids but there was never even a thought that someone would go get the gun out of the truck and start shooting up the school. Different time for sure.

I was so proud of my custom gun stock in the back window...... :nod:
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2017, 16:57:17 »
Agree. I would also support having breathalyzers on all cars to avoid such things (if it were to ever be feasible) for the same reasons.

Thats such a wicked idea. Breathalyzers in all cars. I'd support that 100%.

But what about speed limiters?  Do you need a car that goes 120kph when our highest speed limit is what, 110kph?


Quote
As there is no real need for private citizens to own semi-automatic weapons and they are linked to mass shootings


The second last mass shooting in Canada was done with a crossbow. 3 dead.

The third last mass shooting in Canada was one with a shotgun. 4 dead 7 injured.

June 17th 2017 police in Northern Quebec shot a 19 year old who killed 3 people with a knife.



Given the number of mass shootings in Canada where semi automatics were used in the last 10 years is it really a viable solution to ban semi auto rifles? Is it going to significantly impact the number of mass murders in Canada? Or lower the potential of dead and injured? 

Should we stop at semi auto rifles or maybe add pistols to the list, or high capacity shotguns? Bolt action rifles with detachable magazines?

Do first Nations who use rifles for sustinent hunting get special exemptions or would we send the RCMP on to reserves and up north to confiscate them?


(sorry just realized I'm drifting into Canadian gun control debate but I guess the question about FN would jive down there too)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 18:15:41 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline recceguy

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2017, 17:56:17 »
More people are killed with guns than knives in the US.

https://www.snopes.com/four-times-more-stabbed-than-rifles-any-kind/

Given the bad exposure Snopes has rec'd showing left leaning bias and adulteration of facts to fit their narrative, I'd be inclined to depend on them even less than Wikipedia for facts. Not doubting your claim, just saying Snopes doesn't cut it as a dependable source any more.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2017, 18:13:11 »
Given the bad exposure Snopes has rec'd showing left leaning bias and adulteration of facts to fit their narrative, I'd be inclined to depend on them even less than Wikipedia for facts. Not doubting your claim, just saying Snopes doesn't cut it as a dependable source any more.

I checked with snopes if they're left wing biased and they said that accusation is false.

Also an interesting article by Forbes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2016/12/22/the-daily-mail-snopes-story-and-fact-checking-the-fact-checkers/

Glad you're back RC but hurt you didn't comment  on my newest acquisition  ;D
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Offline mariomike

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« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 18:40:55 by mariomike »

Offline recceguy

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2017, 18:31:38 »
Breathalyzer in every car. No semi auto firearms. (I assume you also mean .22 cal rimfire.) What else would you prohibit the masses from having because you don't like the reality of a situation?

So, basically, if you don't like it, it needs to be banned?

Like I said earlier, you can't legislate behaviour.

From your research:
"Table 12 also shows that more people were killed via the use of “hands, fists, feet, etc.,” than were killed by rifles of any kind. In fact, the tally shows that the death numbers were not even close. While approximately 374 people were shot and killed with rifles, roughly 656 people were beaten to death with “hands, fists, feet, etc.” "

Last I looked, assault causing death was against the law and 656 seems like an excessive number at least compared to those of rifles.

After cutting off everyone's hands and feet, we'll have to figure how far back to cut the stumps so they can't be used to club or poke.  ;D j/k
Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Offline recceguy

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2017, 18:40:44 »
I checked with snopes if they're left wing biased and they said that accusation is false.

Also an interesting article by Forbes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2016/12/22/the-daily-mail-snopes-story-and-fact-checking-the-fact-checkers/

Glad you're back RC but hurt you didn't comment  on my newest acquisition  ;D

Cheers Jarn. Not really back and don't spend any time here when I am. Sometime something catches my eye. Abolishinists and prohibitionists are like blood in the water.  :rofl:

I'll check out your new toy before I go.
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Offline FJAG

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2017, 21:06:39 »
Given the bad exposure Snopes has rec'd showing left leaning bias and adulteration of facts to fit their narrative, I'd be inclined to depend on them even less than Wikipedia for facts. Not doubting your claim, just saying Snopes doesn't cut it as a dependable source any more.

These are the FBI statistics:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls

 :cheers:
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2017, 22:17:24 »
I’ve been following these discussions and they all seem to go the same way. People who are in favour of gun ownership and people who aren’t debating/discussing whether to get rid of guns, which guns specifically, how many guns, etc. and which types of gun regulations will stop the same ridiculousness from occurring again. I have to chime in, simply out of frustration...

Gun culture isn’t what needs to change in the US. Guns and their accessibility simply contribute to an issue that isn’t going to change, because no one can figure out why the issue even exists. And the issue is, what, exactly, is wrong with (so many) Americans? There is something so fundamentally defective in their psyche—something in their very wiring—that pushes them to extremes. Their racial conflicts, their political views, their extreme beliefs WRT ‘their right to bear arms’, their numbers of serial killers, looking back at countless events throughout their history (and for such a young country) etc etc. They are a society of extremes and/or violence in practically all major facets of life.

If guns became/become severely restricted/governed, then someone would/will come up with some other method of destruction with which to take as many people out as quickly as possible. (Vehicles & crowds seems to be popular right now...)

I personally don’t understand why Joe down the street needs (or even has a desire to own) 10, 20, 40+ guns. I like the way Week-end Update on SNL put it (paraphrasing), ‘No one should own 48 of anything...If someone owns 48 cats, the person is considered a crazy cat-person, the government declares you an unfit, irresponsible cat owner and confiscates your cats...’ Humourous/tongue-n-cheek, but easy to see the point. I absolutely believe there is a problem with guns and gun ownership in the US. But I also have absolutely zero doubt that restricting them will do little, if anything at all, in curbing the violence in that country. Specifically gun violence? Maybe. But incidences where an individual (legally sane/mentally ill or not) seeks to kill/injure large quantities of people, for whatever reason, isn’t going to stop. These threads will continue, they’ll just have a different method in their title. 
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Offline Colin P

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2017, 22:50:31 »
There has clearly been a change that has led to more shootings and killings, is it education, drugs, family structures, movies or a combination of the above. As I said earlier looking at these factors than just the weapon will lead you to answers that might require people to acknowledge that their ideas or products are flawed. You can imagine how interested they are to do that. Far easier to beat on the NRA instead.

Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2017, 23:03:55 »
There has clearly been a change that has led to more shootings and killings, is it education, drugs, family structures, movies or a combination of the above. As I said earlier looking at these factors than just the weapon will lead you to answers that might require people to acknowledge that their ideas or products are flawed. You can imagine how interested they are to do that. Far easier to beat on the NRA instead.

(Edit to add: Colin P: I read too quickly and initially misunderstood your point. Still agree. I’ll keep what I initially typed below though.)

I do agree. But I always come right back to the fact that other countries (with similar cultures) have the same access to info, education, familial struggles, etc and don’t deal with the same frequency, or escalation of violence in any given number of scenarios that they do, either now or in the past.

Obviously, when comparing we have to look at percentage/per capita vs plain figures because they have such a large population. But I really struggle to assume that (I’ll use us, because, well, it’s easy) Canada would be on par, or close to it, with our Southern neighbours if we also had a population of 300+ million. I deeply believe we wouldn’t have the same level of issues, either to the scale or the volume that they deal with far too often. We simply don’t think like they do. As a whole, I feel we are a population of far more critically thinking people, who analyze problems, outcomes, and solutions much more contructively than they (as a whole) do. We don’t display the same levels/frequency of divisiveness and anger that they do either.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 23:16:04 by BeyondTheNow »
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2017, 23:35:34 »
There has clearly been a change that has led to more shootings and killings, is it education, drugs, family structures, movies or a combination of the above. As I said earlier looking at these factors than just the weapon will lead you to answers that might require people to acknowledge that their ideas or products are flawed. You can imagine how interested they are to do that. Far easier to beat on the NRA instead.

Re-introduce conscription.

Then they'll all be so p*ssed off with dragging weapons around and cleaning them, and getting charged for losing them/ having NDs, that they'd want nothing to do with bang bangs after their period of service was up.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #65 on: November 09, 2017, 01:04:55 »
These are the FBI statistics:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls

 :cheers:

You'll note where I didn't dispute the stats. Simply that Snopes is not to be trusted as 100% true.
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Offline Jungle

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #66 on: November 09, 2017, 07:05:44 »
I've been living in the US southwest for a few years now, and I feel quite safe here. Most discussions about crime in the USA take the numbers in isolation, but very few look at stats. This wiki entry uses stats from the  United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) for its table:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

When we look at homicide statistically (number of intentional homicides per 100 000 population) we find that the USA is far below some of the countries we like to visit for holidays:

USA: 4.88
Jamaica: 43.21
Belize: 34.4
Bahamas: 29.81
Dominican Republic: 17.39
Barbados: 10.91
Guadeloupe (France): 7.90
Turks and Caicos Islands (UK): 6.61
Bermuda (UK): 6.45

Canada sits at 1.68

Most countries above have strict gun laws. In the Bahamas or Bermuda, it is nearly impossible to own a firearm even for hunting. Yet their homicide rates are much higher than in the US.
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Offline Bird_Gunner45

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #67 on: November 09, 2017, 08:05:06 »
Breathalyzer in every car. No semi auto firearms. (I assume you also mean .22 cal rimfire.) What else would you prohibit the masses from having because you don't like the reality of a situation?

So, basically, if you don't like it, it needs to be banned?

Like I said earlier, you can't legislate behaviour.

From your research:
"Table 12 also shows that more people were killed via the use of “hands, fists, feet, etc.,” than were killed by rifles of any kind. In fact, the tally shows that the death numbers were not even close. While approximately 374 people were shot and killed with rifles, roughly 656 people were beaten to death with “hands, fists, feet, etc.” "

Last I looked, assault causing death was against the law and 656 seems like an excessive number at least compared to those of rifles.

After cutting off everyone's hands and feet, we'll have to figure how far back to cut the stumps so they can't be used to club or poke.  ;D j/k

This is a weak argument. Drinking and driving is against the law, so if there is a way to better enforce the law, why wouldn't we, as a society, want that? Unless you believe that people killed by drunk drivers is just something we should accept for "reasons"....  There is no valid reason why anyone should drink and drive anymore (or ever for that point). So, yes, if the law prohibits drunk driving and a breathalyzer engine block will stop people from doing it, than why wouldn't this be something every law abiding citizen wants?

So no, it's not a case of "if I don't like it it should be banned". It's more of a case of "if the law says something it should be enforced".

Offline Jungle

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #68 on: November 09, 2017, 08:44:09 »
Now let's look at gun ownership in the same countries, per 100 residents:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

USA: 101
Jamaica: 8.1
Belize: 10
Bahamas: 5.3
Dominican Republic: 5.1
Barbados: 7.8
Guadeloupe (France): Unknown (Not on list)
Turks and Caicos Islands (UK): Unknown (Not on list)
Bermuda (UK): Unknown (Not on list)

Canada: 30
"I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
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Offline Lumber

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #69 on: November 09, 2017, 08:46:31 »
Now let's look at gun ownership in the same countries, per 100 residents:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

USA: 101
Jamaica: 8.1
Belize: 10
Bahamas: 5.3
Dominican Republic: 5.1
Barbados: 7.8
Guadeloupe (France): Unknown (Not on list)
Turks and Caicos Islands (UK): Unknown (Not on list)
Bermuda (UK): Unknown (Not on list)

Canada: 30

How about poverty and income inequality?
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2017, 08:53:50 »
How about poverty and income inequality?

Ding. Ding. Ding! We have a winner!

Offline Jungle

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #71 on: November 09, 2017, 08:58:44 »
How about poverty and income inequality?

Yes, we could also look at the number of fridges and the availability of mayonnaise, but this conversation is about the relationship between gun ownership and homicide rates...

But Belize, Barbados, Bahamas and Bermuda are far from 3rd world countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(nominal,_Atlas_method)_per_capita
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 09:04:30 by Jungle »
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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2017, 09:04:22 »
Belize, Barbados and Bahamas could have gun violence issues due to the drug trade.

Not sure what to think about Bermuda.

I wonder- is there a correlation between former slave owning states and gun violence?

Offline Jungle

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2017, 09:06:10 »
Belize, Barbados and Bahamas could have gun violence issues due to the drug trade.

So does the USA...
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre
« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2017, 09:11:08 »
I've been living in the US southwest for a few years now, and I feel quite safe here. Most discussions about crime in the USA take the numbers in isolation, but very few look at stats. This wiki entry uses stats from the  United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) for its table:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

When we look at homicide statistically (number of intentional homicides per 100 000 population) we find that the USA is far below some of the countries we like to visit for holidays:

USA: 4.88
Jamaica: 43.21
Belize: 34.4
Bahamas: 29.81
Dominican Republic: 17.39
Barbados: 10.91
Guadeloupe (France): 7.90
Turks and Caicos Islands (UK): 6.61
Bermuda (UK): 6.45

Canada sits at 1.68

Most countries above have strict gun laws. In the Bahamas or Bermuda, it is nearly impossible to own a firearm even for hunting. Yet their homicide rates are much higher than in the US.

Jungle:

Nice find on the statistics front.

However, we must be very careful here. If you read the beginning of the Wiki entry, you will see that they themselves indicate the stats are not quite reliable as "intentional" is defined differently from one country to another. Also, and this is the more important aspect: these homicide rates are all encompassing and do not in any way distinguish or indicate by which mean the homicide was committed. So, they include all forms of homicide, be it by gun, knife, broadaxe, intentional use of car to run over, etc.

The other thing that all the stats we have been looking at in this thread do not clearly indicate either (at least so far), is who is murdered and why. I say that because I believe, and any LEO in here feel free to chime in, that in Canada - for instance - the majority of our intentional homicides are instances of "domestic violence", internal to families (at large), in-laws and close friends.

I think that, if this type of research was done in the US, we would find the same thing. And here is the big problem I see in changing attitudes in the US: They don't want to find out. That's why Congress doesn't want the CDC to look into these matters. And I believe they don't want to look into it because Americans have no appetite for looking into their national psyche and social problems (from drug use, poverty, lack of education and underlying racism) and find out all the problems that exist there* - lest they have to actually start to do something about it.


*: While I don't want to blame Hollywood for the ills of US society, IMHO, one of the underlying problem in the American collective psyche is some of their foundational myths. For instance, and that was greatly propagated by Hollywood, one such myth is that of the wild West, with the gunslingers and shoot-outs. In fact, while there was certain number of criminals (that's what they were) of that ilk, the alleged wild West looked a lot more like Little House on the Prairie than Shooting at the O.K. Corral. Sure, the farmers had a single long barrel gun by the door, but it had a lot more to do with chasing the coyotes from the herd than to defend one self. And most cowboy's did their work totally unarmed (I know: sacrilege!) - and "Indians" were not constantly on the war path and a menace. Similarly, today, the myth is that of the whole world trying to come in and attack them at home, with all their TV drama and Hollywood movies foiling time and time again "bad people" trying to commit horrible crime against them. I suspect there have been more "foiled attacks" on the US in NCIS than have actually been detected by the CIA in its whole history  ;D.

Add to that the ingrained paranoia that is found in a large portion of the US population and it's a recipe for collective mental illness. That paranoia expresses itself, for instance in that person referred to in posts above, who wouldn't go to a theater in the US because he was not allowed to carry his gun for self defence. That person most likely had never, in his whole life, had to pull out his gun to defend himself, nor had probably ever had a friend, relative or any one lisle he knows need to do so either. The USA is simply not that dangerous a place.