Author Topic: SUBMISS Argentine Navy  (Read 9599 times)

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2017, 13:49:40 »
Well, you are smoking something MM.

SOSUS or whatever the current system's name is, is a NATO system for the North Atlantic. It has no station from the Southern Atlantic feeding into it. I don't believe that Argentina or the UK operate any system similar to that in that area of the South Atlantic. However, there may be (and probably are) many local systems of  hydrophones belonging to military organizations or research establishments that would record, but not necessarily be permanently monitored, sound in the general area but in a more localized area. That data is probably what the Argentinian Navy has gotten access to and has now started to review for any indication and found the ominous sound, as reported on TV, consistent with an implosion.

By the way, JJT's friend is quite correct, in a cold crush event, the end is mercifully swift for submariners. In a lack of oxygen case, the end is painless, as you pass out before death, but the mental anguish of the long lead time is unimaginable.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2017, 13:54:38 »
You'd have thought that SOSUS (or what passes for it now) would have picked up something...or am I smoking crack?

MM

It would appear to have done so, but uncertain when such correlated information was passed to the Argentine Navy.

Retroactively, the acoustic event signature correlated against the last known transmission indicating a major malfunction, certainly doesn't bode well, and one can only imagine how much the families would have liked to have been provided more detailed information sooner.

A very sad situation indeed.

G2G

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2017, 14:15:05 »
Well Argentina just confirmed the death of the 44 sailors on board.

Heartbreaking news. RIP .

The Argentine navy confirms the death of the 44 crew members of the ARA San Juan

The worst of the scenarios was confirmed early in the morning by the Argentine navy, when it brought together the family members of the crew to tell them that the sad message of the death of the 44 crewmembers of the submarine ARA San Juan had disappeared last week.

The Argentinian navy reported yesterday that it was analyzing a 'hydroacoustic anomaly' that was detected a week ago in the Atlantic where the last known position of the submarine ARA San Juan was remedied, a sound almost three hours after the last communication with the ship .

Captain Enrique Balbi told the media at the headquarters of the navy in Buenos Aires that a warning was received responding to a 'hydroacoustic anomaly' observed at the last known position of the submarine last Wednesday in the Gulf Gulf San Jorge, 432 kilometers off the coast of Argentine Patagonia.

"The United States - one of the 13 countries that work together to search for submersible pumps - asked for (data) different bodies that focus on collecting different hydroacoustic events around the world," he added.

After collecting all information and conducting a thorough centralized analysis in the United States, that official indication was received corresponding to Wednesday, November 15 in the morning, coinciding with the area of ​​the last known position of the submarine.

"This would be about 30 miles north of that position, on the way to Mar del Plata," the Buenos Aires city to which the ship left from the southern port of Ushuaia and where it would have arrived between Sunday and Monday.

The hydroacoustic anomaly and the US Navy report were reviewed in Argentina and sent to other international organizations that confirmed that it was an underwater explosion in the area where the submarine would be located.

The Navy gathered the family members and handed over the terrible news. The impact on the family members of the crew was terrible. Many of them have left the meeting and complain about the management of the situation by the government and the Argentine navy.

The relatives wonder how it is possible that they were kept in suspense for a week by mobilizing the operation if the data to locate the San Juan were available from the same day the disaster took place.

On the other hand, the family members continue to emphasize that the crew was condemned from the moment the submarine went to sea because of the poor state of maintenance it was in.

Argentina is one of the countries in Latin America that has invested least in defense since the time of 'Kirschnerism' that led the armed forces to a state of neglect that is now being paid.

However, little has been revealed about how the Argentine Navy confirmed the death of the sailors. It is known that the ship Cabo de Hornos of the Chilean navy and the Skandi Patagonia, a ship of the French oil company Total with an underwater rescue squadron of the US Navy, were in the vicinity of the accident.

The latest information indicates that the destruction of the submarine may be due to the explosion of one of its batteries due to a possible short circuit.

Rest in peace the brave companions of the sea.

[translated via google translate]

Source: http://www.diariodenautica.com/ @ Article [Spanish]

Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline medicineman

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2017, 14:25:12 »
By the way, JJT's friend is quite correct, in a cold crush event, the end is mercifully swift for submariners. In a lack of oxygen case, the end is painless, as you pass out before death, but the mental anguish of the long lead time is unimaginable.

Was an undersea/diving med dude before getting out and was supposed to go to VIC as the doc - yes, definitely want the boat to crumple vice hanging out hoping for rescue or escape consideration.  Depending on escape depth, there is a good chance of catastrophic decompression from a rapid ascent...a friend of mine used to joke that the poopy suits were there to ensure there was a body for the family.  Last SUBSAREX/ESCAPEX I did, I want to say more than half the exercise causalties we picked up went through my chamber for damage control recompression - we were also experimenting with how many litter cases we could get into the 6 man portable with an attendant...got really tight in there and a bit hard on the back maneuvering folks in/out (and hopefully not squishing any of them).  The term "6 man" really should read "6 very small men"...

Was saying that regardless, I don't see this ending well...as I posted, the Argentine Navy has confirmed it.  RIP submariners.

MM
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2017, 14:41:13 »
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2017, 14:55:27 »
A dark day indeed. Many a silent drink will be drunk in submarines around the world tonight.

The silent service even honours its dead in silence.

Rest in the depth. May lord Neptune hosts you at his great banquet.

And condolences to all the families of the departed.  :salute:

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2017, 16:31:57 »
Very saddened to see this come to pass.  We're all, as sailors, at the mercy of the sea regardless of which nation we serve.  I hate it when she takes some of us as it could be any one of us if our number comes up.  I hope it was swift.  My thoughts are with their families today.   :salute:

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2017, 19:55:51 »
Now they just need to find the sub.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2017, 13:17:59 »
A picture gallery of the crew.One thing that strikes me is the age of the sailors,which seems that they were older men.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42113257

Offline Baden Guy

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2017, 13:54:22 »
From todays TO Star:

They sent a piece of crap to sail,” said Itati Leguizamon, wife of submarine crew member German Suarez. “They inaugurated a submarine with a coat of paint and a flag in 2014, but without any equipment inside. The navy is to blame for its 15 years of abandonment.”
The German-built diesel-electric TR-1700 class submarine was commissioned in 1985 and was most recently refitted in 2014.

Balbi defended the Argentine Navy, saying that “with respect to the maintenance and state of our naval and air units, no unit ever leaves port or takes off if it isn’t in operating conditions to navigate or fly with total security.”
The German-built diesel-electric TR-1700 class submarine was commissioned in 1985 and was most recently refitted in 2014.

During the $12 million retrofitting, the vessel was cut in half and had its engines and batteries replaced. Experts say that refits can be difficult because they involve integrating systems produced by different manufacturers and even the smallest mistake during the cutting phase of the operation can put the safety of the ship and the crew at risk.

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/11/23/unusual-noise-in-ocean-could-give-clue-to-missing-argentine-submarines-location-officials.html
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 13:59:35 by Baden Guy »

Offline Dimsum

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2017, 13:58:14 »
A picture gallery of the crew.One thing that strikes me is the age of the sailors,which seems that they were older men.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42113257

I think that if you took a look at RCN/RN/RAN/RNZN sub (and surface fleet) crews, you'll find they are in general older than USN ones.  I definitely noticed it when working with Americans.
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Offline Underway

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2017, 17:00:49 »
I think that if you took a look at RCN/RN/RAN/RNZN sub (and surface fleet) crews, you'll find they are in general older than USN ones.  I definitely noticed it when working with Americans.

Nah they just look older due to stress of sailing in smaller more cramped subs.  Not the pleasure cruisers the US operate.  ;D

Offline duffman

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2017, 18:14:01 »
Small tidbits of details... Water entered missing Argentine sub's snorkel, causing short circuit.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-argentina-submarine/water-entered-missing-argentine-subs-snorkel-causing-short-circuit-idUSKBN1DR2B3



Offline tomahawk6

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2017, 19:27:31 »
How is that possible ? To have water come through the snorkel. Second once you have that issue why not surface despite the stormy sea and return to base ?

Offline Occam

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2017, 00:00:48 »
I didn't sail on subs, but I have a few friends who did.  My understanding is that the sub doesn't completely surface to snorkel; it's entirely submerged and only the snort mast extends from the water.  Apparently there is a valve on the snort mast that normally keeps seawater from coming in, but my friends have mentioned that keeping the sub depth constant is somewhat of an art, and if the sub goes ever slightly too deep and water hits the valve, it will slam shut - causing distress to the crew because the diesel engine then tries to pull air from inside the sub, and makes your ears hurt like hell.  Extrapolating from what they've told me, I guess if that valve didn't work properly, it would allow water to get into the snort mast.

My understanding is that submarines while on the surface are not particularly stable in rough weather, and they would avoid this if possible.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2017, 08:12:56 »
I didn't sail on subs, but I have a few friends who did.  My understanding is that the sub doesn't completely surface to snorkel; it's entirely submerged and only the snort mast extends from the water.  Apparently there is a valve on the snort mast that normally keeps seawater from coming in, but my friends have mentioned that keeping the sub depth constant is somewhat of an art, and if the sub goes ever slightly too deep and water hits the valve, it will slam shut - causing distress to the crew because the diesel engine then tries to pull air from inside the sub, and makes your ears hurt like hell.  Extrapolating from what they've told me, I guess if that valve didn't work properly, it would allow water to get into the snort mast.

My understanding is that submarines while on the surface are not particularly stable in rough weather, and they would avoid this if possible.

Thanks for the education. I guess submarine service is not for the faint of heart.

jollyjacktar

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2017, 08:57:28 »
When l was an MP stationed at Shearwater, l remember when the LA Class sub USS Philadelphia paid a visit to A Jetty.  They came in on the heels of a bad storm that was so rough it caused hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more damage to the cargo of an auto carrier that came to the auto port at the same time. 

In speaking to a crewmember of the sub they told me they had stayed near the surface in the storm until about 90% of the crew were puking as the old man's wife was waiting in port and he really, really wanted to come in.  They dove to get out of the roil and settle her down and IIRC they needed to be below 100 feet before the surface action wasn't moving them all over.  She was a good sized boat, not a small girl like the Argentine. 

I can just imagine if the weather when they were snorting was getting in the 3 m wave height the search ships were facing that they would have been slamming all over the place.

Offline Colin P

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2017, 10:16:02 »
As for finding it, hell we are still locating subs that went missing almost 100 years ago, it could be missing for quite some time. People really don't have a grasp of just how big the ocean is.

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: SUBMISS Argentine Navy
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2017, 17:18:24 »
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/11/30/rescue-mission-for-argentine-submarine-crew-ends-search-for-sub-continues.html

Rescue mission for Argentine submarine crew ends, search for sub continues

The search for a missing Argentine submarine will continue but the rescue part of the plan has ended, a spokesman for the navy said on Thursday.

Argentine navy spokesman Enrique Balbi said the mission "extended for more than twice what is estimated for a rescue."

The search for the ARA San Juan has lasted for 15 days since it first went missing on Nov. 15. 44 crew members were on board the vessel.

The submarine was sailing from the extreme southern port of Ushuaia to the coastal city of Mar del Plata It was originally scheduled to arrive last Monday at a navy base there.

After several dead-end discoveries, investigators confirmed that an explosion occurred near the time and place where the sub went missing.

Hopes for survivors had already dimmed because experts say the crew only had enough oxygen to last up to 10 days if the sub remained intact under the sea.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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