Author Topic: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working  (Read 29004 times)

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Offline Old Sweat

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Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« on: November 21, 2017, 12:06:18 »
This report from the Toronto Star reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act suggest that the Auditor General found that RMC is not an effective institution.

Costly Royal Military College falling down in training leaders: Auditor General
Institution costs twice as much as other universities, turns out graduates lacking in military education and leadership skills: report.

A complete review of the Royal Military College of Canada begins today at the prestigious institution. Senior Canadian Armed Forces commanders ordered the probe following a number of suspected suicides and allegations of sexual misconduct.

By BRUCE CAMPION-SMITHOttawa Bureau
Tues., Nov. 21, 2017
OTTAWA—The Royal Military College, Canada’s premier school for young officers, costs twice as much as other universities, yet turns out graduates lacking in military education and leadership skills, the Auditor General says.

While cadets are meant to become leaders in the armed forces, military training takes a back seat to academic subjects and most students see such training as “irrelevant” and a “poor use of time,” according to a report from the watchdog released Tuesday.

And incidents of misconduct at the storied institution, located in Kingston, show that it is falling down in its mission to produce officers with strong leadership skills.

“The academic environment at the college does not consistently support the teaching of military conduct and ethical behaviour,” Auditor General Michael Ferguson said.

“The college must re-establish its focus as a military training institution, so that it can produce the leaders the Canadian Armed Forces require,” he said.

Yet the Royal Military College (RMC) comes at a steep price tag. The Auditor General report concluded that the college is the “most costly way” to educate future military officers; it costs some $40,000 more a year than a civilian university does, the report found.

Despite the higher costs, National Defence was unable to show that RMC graduates turn out to be more effective military leaders. Indeed, the Canadian Armed Forces’ own internal study found “no discernible difference” and concluded that there was no evidence to show that RMC graduates had a “stronger grasp of military leadership or proper conduct.”

The audit examined whether the college produces quality officers at a reasonable cost. It also looked at whether National Defence ensured proper conduct of the officer cadets and staff. The investigation concluded that the school comes up short.

Online Blackadder1916

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« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 13:30:02 by Blackadder1916 »
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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 13:50:03 »
Maybe we should re-purpose RMC as a 1 or 2 year "finishing school"?
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 14:00:36 »
Maybe we should re-purpose RMC as a 1 or 2 year "finishing school"?

My only comment:  The tools, resources, structure and personnel are already in place to make RMC effective; however, what is lacking is clear will and desire to enforce the policies and procedures as they are written.

Offline Pre-flight

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 15:20:57 »
Maybe we should re-purpose RMC as a 1 or 2 year "finishing school"?

That has been the best suggestion I've heard.

RMC has been a lackluster academic institution for a long time. Per student the cost is double other universities and it rates pretty low on academics.

Personally I'd think the best way forward is everyone gets their degrees from better universities and then go to RMC for a year of finishing and "officership" training.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 17:32:29 »
Out of curiosity, DEOs learn all the 'officership' stuff on your trades courses or via OJT. I noticed when we were all juniors running through the system a lot of the RMC knowledge didn't apply to the real military, and effectively we were all at comparable levels of knowledge and competency by the time we hit our trade qualification.  Bearing that in mind, why have RMC as a finishing school at all if you get away from core undergrad work? Depending on the specific trade, large portions of us have never been to RMC and we seem to be able to effectively do our jobs.

I think they'd be better off not making Mickey mouse rules up on the fly and treating the students as young professionals under training instead of kids would go a long way to sorting out a lot of the issues.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 17:33:40 »

Offline MCG

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 17:48:21 »
Recruiting bonuses are cheaper and faster than RMC.

I would suggest creating a “Canadian Sandhurst” may be a different topic than the future of RMC because we could have both at the same time on the same entitlement stream.

If the decision were made that RMC is not required as a degree granting institution, I would not try to transform it into anything like Sandhurst.  But, if it were decided that we needed something like Sandhurst, I would build it in CTC (or alternately build it by any large land training area and leave it under CMP ownership).

Offline Pre-flight

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 18:16:39 »
Out of curiosity, DEOs learn all the 'officership' stuff on your trades courses or via OJT. I noticed when we were all juniors running through the system a lot of the RMC knowledge didn't apply to the real military, and effectively we were all at comparable levels of knowledge and competency by the time we hit our trade qualification.  Bearing that in mind, why have RMC as a finishing school at all if you get away from core undergrad work? Depending on the specific trade, large portions of us have never been to RMC and we seem to be able to effectively do our jobs.

I think they'd be better off not making Mickey mouse rules up on the fly and treating the students as young professionals under training instead of kids would go a long way to sorting out a lot of the issues.

Mainly because the officer corps as a whole seems lacking from my POV. There seems to be a general lack of understanding of administrative procedures as well (which is understandable since SNCO's learn them over years of experience).

Everything from leadership, to administrative and disciplinary procedures, to parts of the CAFJODs and even a dumbed down version of the AOC could be bundled together in a 6 month or 12 month course that will better prepare officers for actual leadership and management. More-so than what a bachelor of arts can do, or what the leadership level system attempted but failed to do.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 18:41:00 »
Quote from: Navy_Pete

I think they'd be better off not making Mickey mouse rules up on the fly and treating the students as young professionals under training instead of kids would go a long way to sorting out a lot of the issues.

Society seems to be heading in directions not very synonymous with military ethos and lifestyle. Sense of entitlement, pampered behavior, ABYSMAL fitness.
I'm offended! I Know my rights! kind of stuff.

It may be a good idea to drop the university degree requirement and do the Sandhurst model, or, set up RMC as a finishing school where degree holding people wanting to be officers in the CAF can go to and concentrate on military academics.




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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 18:44:50 »
Recruiting bonuses are cheaper and faster than RMC.

I would suggest creating a “Canadian Sandhurst” may be a different topic than the future of RMC because we could have both at the same time on the same entitlement stream.

If the decision were made that RMC is not required as a degree granting institution, I would not try to transform it into anything like Sandhurst.  But, if it were decided that we needed something like Sandhurst, I would build it in CTC (or alternately build it by any large land training area and leave it under CMP ownership).

Dundurn.

Just sayin...

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 18:46:55 »
Dundurn.

Just sayin...


Incentive to succeed (else recoursing in Dundurn), plus potential to someday help the region reach 22 pairs of chromosomes...
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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2017, 18:56:27 »
Personally, I would have preferred an extra 3-6 months of training at the Infantry School (or a year) than a day or a year at any kind of BS "officership" training. And I mean actual professional training more ex's, more practice, more challenges... I never even got the opportunity to lead a patrol before I was a qualified Infantry Officer and being posted to a Reg Froce Battalion to be a Platoon Commander.

Our military's ego on this whole "training leaders" and training "officership" can be out of control. Help make me professionally competent or get the eff out of the way. I had to waste 4 years at university*, I sure wouldn't want to waste another year doing "officership" training.

*95% of the valuable things I learned at university were learned outside of the classroom. Learning how to live like an adult that pays bills, budgets, cooks their own food, learning that life outside of high school means less GAFF for your peers approval, etc. You know, basic post-adolescence maturing. Unfortunately, many people that go to RMC (or many other very small universities where they don't leave the nest) don't get this out of university either.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 19:39:57 by ballz »
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Offline Pre-flight

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2017, 19:09:09 »
Personally, I would have preferred an extra 3-6 months of training at the Infantry School (or a year) than a day or a year at any kind of BS "officership" training. And I mean actual professional training more ex's, more practice, more challenges... I never even got the opportunity to lead a patrol before I was a qualified Infantry Officer at a reg force Battalion.

Our military's ego on this whole "training leaders" and training "officership" can be out of control. Help make me professionally competent or get the eff out of the way. I had to waste 4 years at university*, I sure wouldn't want to waste another year doing "officership" training.

*95% of the valuable things I learned at university were learned outside of the classroom. Learning how to live like an adult that pays bills, budgets, cooks their own food, learning that life outside of high school means less GAFF for your peers approval, etc. You know, basic post-adolescence maturing. Unfortunately, many people that go to RMC (or many other very small universities where they don't leave the nest) don't get this out of university either.

I don't know anything really about Infantry Officer training, however my interaction with most infantry officers is that they do a good job with the leadership side of things. That said, that's only really one trade. There's still a lot to be desired.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2017, 19:23:48 »
Is RMC modeled on Sandhurst ?

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2017, 19:35:42 »
Not at all, T6.

Closer to Annapolis or West Point, but not at their level for  the military part, IMHO.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2017, 20:07:39 »
However, unlike Annapolis or West Point, the four year program at RMC is pensionable time and counts towards retirement.  For those from Quebec or Newfoundland who do an additional prep year at CMR, they'll complete 20% of the time required to receive an immediate pension before completing their degree...
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Offline kev994

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2017, 20:11:25 »
However, unlike Annapolis or West Point, the four year program at RMC is pensionable time and counts towards retirement.  For those from Quebec or Newfoundland who do an additional prep year at CMR, they'll complete 20% of the time required to receive an immediate pension before completing their degree...
‘Merica has a 20 year 50% pension though so it evens out.

Offline Underway

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2017, 20:21:56 »
Is RMC modeled on Sandhurst ?

Sandhurst actually has a selection process that lasts 3-4 weeks for instructors.  RMC has a posting msg or puts cadets in charge (the blind leading the blind).  Its an honour and privilege to be an instructor at Sandhurst which looks good for your career.  RMC is just another administrative posting.

Offline MCG

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2017, 21:27:52 »
Is RMC modeled on Sandhurst ?
RMC is a university.  Sandhurst is a training centre.

The Infantry School’s CAP staff have more in common with Sandhurst than does RMC.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2017, 22:16:42 »
Would converting RMC to the Sandhurst model work better for the CF ?

Offline MCG

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2017, 22:48:55 »
Would converting RMC to the Sandhurst model work better for the CF ?
Good god no.
If you want a race car, you don’t try to get it by converting your Cessna. You start new.

If Canada wants an officers academy, then it should create something new at a location with appropriate training real estate.

If Canada does not need a military university, then it should close RMC. But remember that RMC does more than just OCdt under grad education.  There are a few post graduate technical programs that you will not find at a civilian university in Canada.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2017, 23:04:15 »
Good god no.
If you want a race car, you don’t try to get it by converting your Cessna. You start new.

If Canada wants an officers academy, then it should create something new at a location with appropriate training real estate.

If Canada does not need a military university, then it should close RMC. But remember that RMC does more than just OCdt under grad education.  There are a few post graduate technical programs that you will not find at a civilian university in Canada.

But must the CAF own a university, or can it sponsor such programs at another school (McMaster or UQM or Dal or McGill or UBC or... plenty of excellent schools in Canada)
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Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2017, 23:11:27 »
Mainly because the officer corps as a whole seems lacking from my POV. There seems to be a general lack of understanding of administrative procedures as well (which is understandable since SNCO's learn them over years of experience).

Everything from leadership, to administrative and disciplinary procedures, to parts of the CAFJODs and even a dumbed down version of the AOC could be bundled together in a 6 month or 12 month course that will better prepare officers for actual leadership and management. More-so than what a bachelor of arts can do, or what the leadership level system attempted but failed to do.

What is your branch and experience? Please do not introduce AOC into this discussion. AOC does great things across the river.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2017, 23:19:15 »
But must the CAF own a university, or can it sponsor such programs at another school (McMaster or UQM or Dal or McGill or UBC or... plenty of excellent schools in Canada)
What, like what someone else does with Cranfield? Stop dreaming up proven concepts.