Author Topic: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working  (Read 33771 times)

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2017, 23:22:12 »
I have been thinking that RMC might use the Sandhurst model in that cadets attend a 44 week course culminating with a commission.Cadets would arrive already with a 4 year college degree.

Online Blackadder1916

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2017, 23:25:46 »
But must the CAF own a university, or can it sponsor such programs at another school (McMaster or UQM or Dal or McGill or UBC or... plenty of excellent schools in Canada)

Yes, but where would they get this?



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Offline MCG

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2017, 23:30:27 »
I have been thinking that RMC the CAF might use the Sandhurst model in that cadets attend a 44 week course culminating with a commission.Cadets would arrive already with a 4 year college degree.
If the CAF wants an academy as opposed to a university, then it should not try to twist RMC (on its tiny plot of land beside a base with a tiny training area) to that purpose.  If the CAF wants an academy, RMC is not the institution to do it.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2017, 01:13:07 »
Yes, but where would they get this?





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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2017, 01:39:20 »
RMA Sandhurst: where leaders are not necessarily graduates. But if you want to get a degree, it looks like they can make that happen now after you pass, while you are serving:

Sandhurst chief says army needs character not university degrees

“There are a number of people with very good degrees out there – but what you are looking for is character. That is one thing the army develops very well. There is a feeling now that people are going to university because it is the ‘done’ thing.”

General Nanson revealed that from this September, school-leavers who have been accepted for officer training at Sandhurst will be able to register for a BSc in Leadership and Strategic Studies. Once they have completed the undergraduate degree,  developed in partnership with the University of Reading, they can go on to complete a Masters.   

Officers will build up credits during their 12-month officer training course at Sandhurst, which will make up a third of the degree. They can complete the remaining two thirds over a four year period while they are a serving officer

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/08/14/army-chief-reveals-plans-entice-school-leavers-sandhurst-offering/
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2017, 08:48:30 »
According to CBC, it looks like any issues are well on their way to being solved.  :nod:
Quote
When it comes to the criticism of leadership, Sajjan said the government intends to develop an action plan.



Note that this is the same Minister we were told last spring would be moved out of Defence for lying mis-speaking about his 'architectural' prowess.  I suspect "action plan" (particularly regarding leadership) means 'waffle until the people forget the issue.'
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Offline Inspir

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2017, 08:56:38 »
But must the CAF own a university, or can it sponsor such programs at another school (McMaster or UQM or Dal or McGill or UBC or... plenty of excellent schools in Canada)

Are you thinking along the lines of how the Canadian Coast Guard College does it? With their Officers getting a degree from Cape Breton University.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2017, 09:10:32 »
All this talk about Sandhurst, that's great but the CAF is a joint force and RMC is a joint College.

If the CAF wanted to create a Sandhurst, it would need to also create a Britannia Naval Academy and RAF Academy. Hmmmm, or it could create a Tri-Service Academy and base it out of Kingston.

What's good for the Army isn't necessarily good for the other services but that's tough to swallow in our JARMY military.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2017, 10:01:05 »
The bottom line, as I see it:

:panic:.... for less than a week.  Society will then have wandered off, fixated on Hollywood's next crisis.  If there's any talk of significant change, the old guard alumni will circle the wagons to ensure nothing happens.

The "action plan" will drag on, producing mindless platitudes about how RMC is required to be different.  Having already acknowledged that there are leadership issues (and given our military's default setting of building more/bigger HQs), they'll likely throw in a couple of extraneous LCol/Cdr positions to be "leadership role-model" mannequins.

Nothing will change.   :boring:



Now, if I was cynical.....
Will anyone wonder (out loud): "RMC used to produce military leaders; there has been no significant change to the MilCol programme, but now it doesn't work;  what's different?  Oh, the raw materials."  No child left behind. Everyone gets a participation ribbon. Drool running from their mouths as they're glued to cell phones.

People are surprised that so many Cadets show up self-entitled, illiterate, socially helpless.... and RMC is supposed to magically fix that (without speaking harshly or releasing anyone)?   ::)

Just as well I'm not cynical.
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
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Offline Towards_the_gap

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2017, 10:04:43 »
My humble 2c......

I worked with a great deal of awesome officers during my short time in the CF, on par with any I worked with in the British Army (products of Sandhurst). And of course, some absolute duds.

Was there a noticeable difference between RMC grads and non-RMC grads? Professionally, I'd say no. Academically, I wouldn't be able to judge, although I picked up a fair few spelling mistakes proof-reading things for officers (of both tribes) which I delighted in pointing out! Is the ring-knocking worth the 40k per person per annum? I can't say I saw any evidence of it, or anything to justify the 'mystique' that RMC seems to have within the military.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2017, 10:21:18 »
My humble 2c......

I worked with a great deal of awesome officers during my short time in the CF, on par with any I worked with in the British Army (products of Sandhurst). And of course, some absolute duds.

Was there a noticeable difference between RMC grads and non-RMC grads? Professionally, I'd say no. Academically, I wouldn't be able to judge, although I picked up a fair few spelling mistakes proof-reading things for officers (of both tribes) which I delighted in pointing out! Is the ring-knocking worth the 40k per person per annum? I can't say I saw any evidence of it, or anything to justify the 'mystique' that RMC seems to have within the military.


Based on experience, Mil Coll was an excellent way to guarantee that you made it through CTC at Gagetown ;)

Also, ever notice the percentage of CF generals that are Mil Coll grads?
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2017, 10:40:13 »
Journeyman, don't you know by now that the purpose of an action plan is to be able to produce a couple of 30 seconds ads with snazzy pictures that make you feel good and claim that everything good under the sun is the result of your action plan?

 :sarcasm:

There's a question I have about the OAG report that I can't find the answer to: When it claims that graduating an officer from RMC costs $40K more than an average "small" university, do they consider the extra cost of taking DEOs from such a civilian university and qualifying them as commissioned officers in their calculation of comparable costs? I can't find the answer to that one. The report makes the claim that RMC is the most expansive way of generating commissioned officer, ou of the various streams, but it does not provide any background supporting the statement.

Now, back to sarcasm:

I think the OAG report reaches the wrong conclusion because it starts from an incorrect premise:

At section 6.32, "why this finding matters", the report states:

This finding matters because National Defence must ensure that its spending is cost-effective and focuses on National Defence’s priorities.

Now, when on earth has this been an objective of Canada's national defence  ;D.

If they had stated the "true" purpose from the start, their findings would have been that RMC is doing a marvellous job. That "true" purpose would of course be stated this way:

This finding matters because National Defence must ensure that its huge amount of spending is spread out across the country in the least effective way and focuses on the current party in power's priorities in maximizing the political benefits of such spending for the next election cycle.


You see: Stated that way, everything falls into place. /SARC OFF

Offline MCG

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2017, 11:06:38 »
All this talk about Sandhurst, that's great but the CAF is a joint force and RMC is a joint College.
I understand that Britannia Naval Academy provides an 8 week Army-like training crucible to forge RN officers.  If “JArmy” works there, why not here?

I would suggest Journeyman has hit on a key idea in that recruits are different today.  We may need a Royal Military Academy as a officer forge regardless of if they also pass through RMC or not.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2017, 11:15:18 »
If the CAF wanted to create a Sandhurst, it would need to also create a Britannia Naval Academy and RAF Academy.

Easy, just add Mahan and Douhet to the curriculum!

MCG has a point, all this talk of "Sandhurst" as some sort of magical fix is missing the point by seeing problem A and promoting solution Z without considering B-Y.

Before considering any solution, the CAF and the DND must ask if (1) the military needs to be in the undergraduate business and (2) the military needs to take direct responsibility for four years of an officer cadet's life while (s)he completes an undergraduate program (as opposed to indirectly through an alternative pipeline such as the Reserves).

If the answer is yes, then solution "Sandhurst" isn't really in the mix.  If the answer is no, then the CAF needs to re-evaluate its commissioning pipelines and come up with solutions, to which a year-long "finishing school" like Sandhurst is one possible solution.  But until that is thought through, one can't argue that "Sandhurst" is automatically the viable fix for RMC's woes.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2017, 11:18:53 »
Now, if I was cynical.....
Will anyone wonder (out loud): "RMC used to produce military leaders; there has been no significant change to the MilCol programme, but now it doesn't work;  what's different?  Oh, the raw materials."  No child left behind. Everyone gets a participation ribbon. Drool running from their mouths as they're glued to cell phones.

People are surprised that so many Cadets show up self-entitled, illiterate, socially helpless.... and RMC is supposed to magically fix that (without speaking harshly or releasing anyone)?   ::)

Just as well I'm not cynical.

Pretty much nailed it JM

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2017, 11:20:33 »
Will anyone wonder (out loud): "RMC used to produce military leaders; there has been no significant change to the MilCol programme, but now it doesn't work;  what's different?  Oh, the raw materials."  No child left behind. Everyone gets a participation ribbon. Drool running from their mouths as they're glued to cell phones.

People are surprised that so many Cadets show up self-entitled, illiterate, socially helpless.... and RMC is supposed to magically fix that (without speaking harshly or releasing anyone)?   ::)

The only reason I'm skeptical of this statement is that the argument that the current generation is less suited for military service old and repeated by every generation.  I honestly think I remember reading a section from Caesar's Gallic Wars or some other Roman work on how new recruits to the legions weren't like the older generation.  I have a hard time believing that the cell phone is leading to the demise of youth resiliency...30 years ago, people were saying "video games" and "nintendo" were doing the same thing.

In response to the statement that "RMC used to produce military leaders; there has been no significant change to the MilCol programme, but now it doesn't work;  what's different?", I'd ask (1) Is it not working?  Or is it working as well as before but we aren't paying as much attention to the people doing well? and (2) Is it working like before, but the school is less able to keep the spotlight off of its problems?
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Offline Pre-flight

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2017, 11:44:51 »
Good god no.
If you want a race car, you don’t try to get it by converting your Cessna. You start new.

If Canada wants an officers academy, then it should create something new at a location with appropriate training real estate.

If Canada does not need a military university, then it should close RMC. But remember that RMC does more than just OCdt under grad education.  There are a few post graduate technical programs that you will not find at a civilian university in Canada.

Seems a bit wasteful to close down a campus they just spent 200 million renovating only to open another campus somewhere else.

Online Blackadder1916

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2017, 11:59:05 »
There's a question I have about the OAG report that I can't find the answer to: When it claims that graduating an officer from RMC costs $40K more than an average "small" university, do they consider the extra cost of taking DEOs from such a civilian university and qualifying them as commissioned officers in their calculation of comparable costs? I can't find the answer to that one. The report makes the claim that RMC is the most expansive way of generating commissioned officer, ou of the various streams, but it does not provide any background supporting the statement.


My take on the OAG report is that they answered that question primarily in paras 6.49 to 6.54 including Exhibit 6.4 and in the synopsis of RMC expenditures in Exhibit 6.3.   That 40k difference is based on a comparison of subsidizing a ROTP student at RMC vice a civvy university.  I assume (yes, I know . . . but the OAG is usually thorough in its analyses) that there is no mention of additional costs in getting officers to OFP because their analysis is based solely on getting potential officers to meet the educational requirement of an undergrad degree and their remit was not to look at the costs of specific occupational training.  However, since civilian ROTP students and RMC ROTP students would be doing the same MOC/OJT training during school breaks, costs for those periods would be the same; the main variant would be civvy uni tuition cost versus RMC operating cost.

Even though half of officers are sourced from DEO (according to the report), my expectation is that there will continue to be a requirement to subsidize undergrad education in order to attract potential officers.

For that additional 40k a year (though I would dispute the full amount) the only additional benefit that I can see is providing (and kinda, sorta ensuring?) an environment that promotes second language ability and hopefully a culture of physical fitness/sports.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 12:06:35 by Blackadder1916 »
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Offline Baden Guy

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2017, 12:44:07 »
That has been the best suggestion I've heard.

RMC has been a lackluster academic institution for a long time. Per student the cost is double other universities and it rates pretty low on academics.

Personally I'd think the best way forward is everyone gets their degrees from better universities and then go to RMC for a year of finishing and "officership" training.

There's one just across the river.

Offline Strike

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2017, 13:09:54 »
In response to the statement that "RMC used to produce military leaders; there has been no significant change to the MilCol programme, but now it doesn't work;  what's different?", I'd ask (1) Is it not working?  Or is it working as well as before but we aren't paying as much attention to the people doing well? and (2) Is it working like before, but the school is less able to keep the spotlight off of its problems?

Perhaps the problem is then specifically that the MilCol program hasn't changed.  There have been massive changes in society, technology and therefore to the CAF as a whole in how we work, where and when and with what as well as the people who are joining.  The MilCol system has made some changes, yes, but those are arguably more in the social construct and its composition.  I couldn't actually speak to whether or not the military pillar has changed, but if the assertion that the programme hasn't had any significant changes in who knows how long, then likely that's the problem.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2017, 14:24:11 »
Seems a bit wasteful to close down a campus they just spent 200 million renovating only to open another campus somewhere else.
Don’t get emotionally attached to sunk costs. The type of crucible training that occurs at Sandhurst or Britannia has been something that happened in Canada at locations other than RMC.  BOTC was run in Chilliwack (a location with much better training real estate) until the base was closed and a much reduced course (perhaps another element of the problem) was launched in St Jean. If you fixate on the idea the the current geography must define the solution, then you are already situating the estimate.  But to placate your concern for sunk-costs anyway, closing RMC does not have to mean divesting the infrastructure.  Any number of other institutions could be moved there (maybe CFC?).  And I have not come to the conclusion that RMC should be closed.  Maybe we need both an academy and a college? Maybe we need neither?

Back in the old Cold War days, if you did not pass BOTC, you did not get to RMC.  What if we built a program somewhere between those of Samdhurst and Brittania as a common gateway for both DEO and ROTP? Maybe it is ~20 weeks long and covers everything of BOTC, CAP and duties of a BDF platoon command?



Offline Lumber

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2017, 14:48:59 »
Don’t get emotionally attached to sunk costs. The type of crucible training that occurs at Sandhurst or Britannia has been something that happened in Canada at locations other than RMC.  BOTC was run in Chilliwack (a location with much better training real estate) until the base was closed and a much reduced course (perhaps another element of the problem) was launched in St Jean. If you fixate on the idea the the current geography must define the solution, then you are already situating the estimate.  But to placate your concern for sunk-costs anyway, closing RMC does not have to mean divesting the infrastructure.  Any number of other institutions could be moved there (maybe CFC?).  And I have not come to the conclusion that RMC should be closed.  Maybe we need both an academy and a college? Maybe we need neither?

Back in the old Cold War days, if you did not pass BOTC, you did not get to RMC.  What if we built a program somewhere between those of Samdhurst and Brittania as a common gateway for both DEO and ROTP? Maybe it is ~20 weeks long and covers everything of BOTC, CAP and duties of a BDF platoon command?

All good ideas but what were still trying to get at is "what's the purpose of officers earning degrees at RMC vice civi-u"? What's the real benefit?
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Offline Underway

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2017, 15:28:26 »
All good ideas but what were still trying to get at is "what's the purpose of officers earning degrees at RMC vice civi-u"? What's the real benefit?

There isn't as much requirement as there used to be.  If they actually aligned the degree courses with career advancement I could see a better use from an undergrad perspective.  Post grad, research and other important functions of a milcol are good enough reasons to keep the institution IMHO.

Suppose you were granted a PLAR for all of your CSE applications courses if you went to milcol (which is only partially done currently because of lack of coordination).  Then you could start your phase VI training 6-8 months before Civi U students who didn't have those courses.  Big advantage to go to RMC and for the navy as they have qualified officers 8 months faster.

With some clever maneuver on behalf of RMC and the training system there could be plenty of similar cross overs.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2017, 15:37:10 »
Suppose you were granted a PLAR for all of your CSE applications courses if you went to milcol (which is only partially done currently because of lack of coordination).  Then you could start your phase VI training 6-8 months before Civi U students who didn't have those courses.  Big advantage to go to RMC and for the navy as they have qualified officers 8 months faster.

Not faster.  DEO remains much faster from enrol to OFP.
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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2017, 15:40:28 »
All good ideas but what were still trying to get at is "what's the purpose of officers earning degrees at RMC vice civi-u"? What's the real benefit?

That question I am unable to answer. But I have taken courses at RMC as a NCM and from Queen's U.
My vote is for a ROTP program with candidates attending a reputable Canadian university for their undergraduate degree.