Author Topic: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working  (Read 31949 times)

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Offline Lumber

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2017, 15:41:22 »
Not faster.  DEO remains much faster from enrol to OFP.

Ugh, yea, but, DEO officers are the worst! At least for the first few months/years...
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2017, 15:52:06 »
All of this talking and I get the feeling JM was right, this has about as much traction as he thought.  Three articles on the news and not a peep more  ;D

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2017, 16:40:48 »
Seems a bit wasteful to close down a campus they just spent spend 200 million renovating only to open anynother campus somewhere else when we have shortages in things like army boots, flight suits, and NCDs
...

 8)
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Offline Pre-flight

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2017, 09:40:59 »
...

 8)

Agreed, but it happened and is done now.

Offline Pre-flight

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2017, 09:42:20 »
All good ideas but what were still trying to get at is "what's the purpose of officers earning degrees at RMC vice civi-u"? What's the real benefit?

Exactly.

Offline medicineman

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2017, 10:02:07 »
Seems a bit wasteful to close down a campus they just spent 200 million renovating only to open another campus somewhere else.

In the day, a major capital expenditure was usually the pre-cursor to a closure on a base...

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Offline Pre-flight

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2017, 10:21:53 »
In the day, a major capital expenditure was usually the pre-cursor to a closure on a base...

MM

A bit cynical, but none-the-less accurate. I remember a nice bit of renovations and construction at CFS St. John's right up to the day they flattened the place and made an armories.

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2017, 10:27:02 »
A bit cynical, but none-the-less accurate. I remember a nice bit of renovations and construction at CFS St. John's right up to the day they flattened the place and made an armories.

Happened at Summerside, Calgary and the odd other place during my time...became a standing joke when I was in Kingston, since it was on the chopping block when I got posted there in '95, just ahead of the Calgary closure after something like $16m on some regimental infrastructure for the PPCLI.

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Online Colin P

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2017, 10:38:13 »
We used to say : "If they fix the roof, your doomed as you now have cost them money"

Online stoker dave

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2017, 12:42:43 »
Post grad, research and other important functions of a milcol are good enough reasons to keep the institution IMHO.


I did my master's degree in engineering at RMC (albeit quite a while ago).  It was a really poor program and I have seen no evidence of improvement since.  I am not convinced that is a reason to keep RMC as it is, although there may be other reasons. 

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2017, 14:24:02 »
The only reason I'm skeptical of this statement is that the argument that the current generation is less suited for military service old and repeated by every generation. 
I would agree.....except...

I'd argue that there has been a massive societal shift from my having grown up, playing outside constantly, and a generation that sits at a computer for their entertainment.  Also, it's brutal seeing the level of literacy of these supposed high school graduates, which would have been painfully addressed (literally) by my school teaching grandmother.

:dunno:
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Offline MCG

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2017, 14:41:24 »
I think it is fair to say that every generation is different than the ones preceding it (and some are more different than others). “Different” always includes both better and worse (but there is a tendency for older generations to see the worse more clearly).

If the current generation is substantially different than its predecessors, then maybe the officer production system also needs to be different to accommodate the new “production materiel”.

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2017, 14:53:23 »
I think it is fair to say that every generation is different than the ones preceding it (and some are more different than others). “Different” always includes both better and worse (but there is a tendency for older generations to see the worse more clearly).

If the current generation is substantially different than its predecessors, then maybe the officer production system also needs to be different to accommodate the new “production materiel”.

I think the current generation's needs have to be addressed not only at RMC but all training establishments.  Isn't that why the CAF created the TDO occupation, which of course was filled with some of our brightest minds :sarcasm:
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Offline Remius

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2017, 15:03:12 »
Entitlement is likely the biggest difference in North American/western society.  The concept of starting at the bottom and working your way up, actually failing at something and learning from it, the need for instant gratification, how easily anything can be replaced rather than be repaired or recycled, or how you can just move to something else if you don't like what you are doing now, etc etc etc.

My grandparents lived through a depression and a world war.  My parents grew up with those hard lessons learned from theirs and benefited from their hard work and strived to make their kids' lives easier.  The kids of those kids have a carefree attitude mostly because their parents never faced real adversity so they never even witnessed it.


   
Optio

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2017, 15:08:59 »
I would not damn this generation wholesale.

I have two boys in their early 20's. I got engaged with their sport activities (Hockey for one, curling of the other) and their friends. While there is a big difference in their level of physical activities compared to my generation (but then again, what else were we going to do with our time?), I found that their attitude towards the world, hard work and reaching for higher objectives is not that much different from ours. it is just expressed differently because of the social/virtual environment they live in.

I'd like to ask the Senior NCO's and Warrants out here (PO & CPO of us naval people): Do you think the young tradespeople you have seen lately are less willing to work hard and learn than say ten years ago? I bet the answer is: no.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2017, 15:18:28 »

I'd like to ask the Senior NCO's and Warrants out here (PO & CPO of us naval people): Do you think the young tradespeople you have seen lately are less willing to work hard and learn than say ten years ago? I bet the answer is: no.

Overall, I would have to say 'yes' but...I've also changed trades and environments.  I find they are generally less disciplined (i.e. "do the right thing, the right way, at the right time, even when no one is looking") and more mentally fragile than when I was that age and in uniform.  They tend to see themselves "ill treated" for no reason, and don't seem to grasp the concept of "not everyone is equal"...because we aren't, not when we are doing the business a military does.  When I was a Cpl/Tpr I didn't expect the same...professional liberties a Sgt or WO got.  Not so much today, IMO.

That is a very general, overall answer from what I've seen over the past decade.  In 2007 I was on staff at CFLRS, today I am the immediate superior to a handful of fairly young Avr's and Cpl's who are recent products of the training systems in the RCAF.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 16:04:26 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2017, 16:02:55 »
A bit cynical, but none-the-less accurate. I remember a nice bit of renovations and construction at CFS St. John's right up to the day they flattened the place and made an armories.

Brand-new hospital in Lahr...

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2017, 16:20:35 »
New CFSME and 1 CER facilities at Chilliwack...
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2017, 16:22:33 »
$11 million all-ranks mess in Summerside...
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Offline Underway

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2017, 18:13:10 »
Not faster.  DEO remains much faster from enrol to OFP.

That is true, but ROTP Civi U to ROTP milcol is what we are comparing here.  DEO is an entirely different and cheaper option for the military.


Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2017, 18:26:15 »
DEO is an entirely different and cheaper option for the military.

There. THAT should ensure that the only Officers the CAF gets from here on in are thru DEO.    ;D
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Offline MCG

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2017, 21:30:32 »
That is true, but ROTP Civi U to ROTP milcol is what we are comparing here.  DEO is an entirely different and cheaper option for the military.
You are situating the estimate.  Maybe we don’t need ROTP of any sort?  If DEO with a big signing bonous can be both cheaper and as effective, they why have ROTP?

Offline Strike

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #72 on: November 24, 2017, 08:49:35 »
You are situating the estimate.  Maybe we don’t need ROTP of any sort?  If DEO with a big signing bonous can be both cheaper and as effective, they why have ROTP?

Because then you are then also eliminating all those who would not be in a position to pay for their post-secondary education for whatever reason.  Either they don't qualify for enough bursaries or scholarships and/or they are in that grey zone where their parents make too much to allow them to qualify for government aid like OSAP but not enough to pay for schooling.

Not trying to start a debate about how they can get loans like DEOs did.  Just using this as an example.  With ROTP you get someone starting their military career without having to worry about the mountains of debt that can result from a post-secondary education and so they have one less thing to worry about.
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Offline Pre-flight

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #73 on: November 24, 2017, 11:12:07 »
Because then you are then also eliminating all those who would not be in a position to pay for their post-secondary education for whatever reason.  Either they don't qualify for enough bursaries or scholarships and/or they are in that grey zone where their parents make too much to allow them to qualify for government aid like OSAP but not enough to pay for schooling.

Not trying to start a debate about how they can get loans like DEOs did.  Just using this as an example.  With ROTP you get someone starting their military career without having to worry about the mountains of debt that can result from a post-secondary education and so they have one less thing to worry about.

I mean ROTP through a civilian university is still a thing.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working
« Reply #74 on: November 24, 2017, 11:55:04 »
Because then you are then also eliminating all those who would not be in a position to pay for their post-secondary education for whatever reason.  Either they don't qualify for enough bursaries or scholarships and/or they are in that grey zone where their parents make too much to allow them to qualify for government aid like OSAP but not enough to pay for schooling.

Not trying to start a debate about how they can get loans like DEOs did.  Just using this as an example.  With ROTP you get someone starting their military career without having to worry about the mountains of debt that can result from a post-secondary education and so they have one less thing to worry about.

Right, it's just the mountains of debt from bad car loans and giant mess bills they'll have to worry about ;)
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