Author Topic: The Spartans Were Morons  (Read 5470 times)

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Offline daftandbarmy

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The Spartans Were Morons
« on: January 21, 2018, 14:17:41 »
Yup....   :nod:

The Spartans Were Morons

Let’s face it, the Spartans were morons.

The next time you see a middle-aged, bearded, chubby cop or military dude dressed up like Donny Delta Force in morale patches, Velcro and “operator gear” festooned with Spartan helmet insignia, ask yourself: What are they really laying claim to?

https://taskandpurpose.com/the-spartans-were-morons/?utm_content=tp-facebook&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social


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jollyjacktar

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2018, 14:43:50 »
Interesting article, thanks.

Offline Remius

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2018, 15:10:25 »
Good article.  More people should learn a bit more about them before they espouse their value system or hold them up as paragons of humanity...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 15:53:36 by Remius »
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2018, 16:22:32 »
And they would have been too proud to understand and use the magic phrase "FPF Fire, over."

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2018, 16:35:28 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPFQPJ6BWlU&t=13s

A really interesting video documentary on the Spartans - from an admiring female academic.
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Offline Altair

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2018, 16:40:58 »
The spartan leadership were morons,  but nobody who wears a patch with a spartan helmet are paying respect to the spartan leadership.

They are paying respect to the spartan warrior,  to the notion that quality beats quantity,  and the notion of a total warrior,  born and breed.

Doesn't mean they are right,  and the spartans downfall shows the limits to that philosophy
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Offline Kat Stevens

    Quando omni flunkus moritati.

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2018, 17:01:14 »
The 300 at the Hot Gates are not memorialized for their tactics, their brilliance or the latest in ground to ground ballistic javelins tech. It is their willingness to throw themselves into that gap knowing the likelihood of return was pretty thin. The individual Spartan hoplite was the definition of devotion to becoming the best death dealer he could be. They are a symbol of a few things some people still hold in pretty high esteem, dedication, duty, loyalty and courage.  Pretty moronic concepts now, I agree.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline winnipegoo7

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2018, 17:16:05 »
I think that article was written by a moron.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2018, 17:17:32 »
I think that article was written by a moron.

Why do you think so? 

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing - I haven't read it yet.  Just wondering why.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Remius

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2018, 17:41:56 »
The 300 at the Hot Gates are not memorialized for their tactics, their brilliance or the latest in ground to ground ballistic javelins tech. It is their willingness to throw themselves into that gap knowing the likelihood of return was pretty thin. The individual Spartan hoplite was the definition of devotion to becoming the best death dealer he could be. They are a symbol of a few things some people still hold in pretty high esteem, dedication, duty, loyalty and courage.  Pretty moronic concepts now, I agree.

The problem, is when you dig deep enough you see that a lot of that version of what’s the Spartans were is a lot of propaganda and overblown myth making.  Even at the time.  Sparta was always concerned for Sparta.  No one else.  They fought to maintain their society which was all about keeping their slaves under control.  They cared very little for concepts of freedom or democracy or whatever Hollywood’s would have you believe.  They trained for war to keep their slaves from revolting to maintain their way of life.  That’s pretty much it.  Ever wonder why they only sent 300? Because everyone else were needed to keep the population in check.

Now if people want to believe in those things that you listed I have no issues with that.  Heck if they want to believe that Spartans were all that and a bag of chips and it makes them better people for it, cool.

From a historical perspective though, they were psychopaths that wanted to maintain a way of living that meant treating other people harshly even for the standard of those times.

The idea of sparta that we think of today is a noble one.  The reality is far from it.

Calling them morons is a bit of a simplification as i believe they were quite canny.  They avoided war far more than they engaged in it.  That required a lot of diplomacy and lot of acumen to pit your adversaries against each other.
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Offline Kat Stevens

    Quando omni flunkus moritati.

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2018, 18:06:56 »
Got it. We judge ancient people looking through a lens coloured by todays moral standards. Nobody born before facebook is worthy of any sort of admiration. Charlemagne? Dick. Washington and Jefferson? Slave owning dicks. Sir John A? Residential school dick.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline EpicBeardedMan

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2018, 18:11:37 »
Ever wonder why they only sent 300? Because everyone else were needed to keep the population in check.

Uh...what? So the Spartans never participated in any wars or something that required entire Legions of men being absent from their home for long periods of time? I think you're wrong on that one...
The military isn't really like a James Bond movie where you go for jet training in the morning and then underwater demolitions after lunch.

Offline Remius

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2018, 18:29:26 »
Got it. We judge ancient people looking through a lens coloured by todays moral standards. Nobody born before facebook is worthy of any sort of admiration. Charlemagne? Dick. Washington and Jefferson? Slave owning dicks. Sir John A? Residential school dick.


Not at all Kat.  They were cruel even by the standards of the day.  If you compare Sparta to any of the Greek states of the day.  Heck you can look at Persia at the time as being way more enlightened by comparison. The Helot system was very unique to Sparta and though Sparta was admired for many things, that particular institution was not, even by the historians of that day.

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2018, 18:37:58 »
You might want to take a look at the documentary I posted up thread.

For the Thermopylae action see the section from 43 minutes to 51 minutes.  It offers the selection criteria for the 300.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2018, 18:46:05 »
You might want to take a look at the documentary I posted up thread.

For the Thermopylae action see the section from 43 minutes to 51 minutes.  It offers the selection criteria for the 300.

I'm low on data with no WiFi,  can you post?  8)
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Offline Remius

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2018, 18:50:11 »
Uh...what? So the Spartans never participated in any wars or something that required entire Legions of men being absent from their home for long periods of time? I think you're wrong on that one...


I never said that.  They did occasionally participate in wars that necessitated large bodies of men.  Just that they were far and few between.  At most, if the sparta s mustered all of their Spartan warriors at the time the most they could get is about 8000-10000 warriors depending on the timeframe.  Herodotus actually makes reference to it in regards to their numbers at the battle of Platea.  5000 Spartans.  Likely being the most they ever deployed in any one battle.  The rest were kept behind to keep the population in check.  A population 10 times bigger that them. They rarely ventured too far from their own land in great numbers.
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jollyjacktar

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2018, 18:57:08 »

Not at all Kat.  They were cruel even by the standards of the day.  If you compare Sparta to any of the Greek states of the day.  Heck you can look at Persia at the time as being way more enlightened by comparison. The Helot system was very unique to Sparta and though Sparta was admired for many things, that particular institution was not, even by the historians of that day.

Wouldn't the historians of the day, really be more like the MSM of the day?   :D

Offline Altair

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2018, 19:01:49 »
The problem, is when you dig deep enough you see that a lot of that version of what’s the Spartans were is a lot of propaganda and overblown myth making.  Even at the time.  Sparta was always concerned for Sparta.  No one else.  They fought to maintain their society which was all about keeping their slaves under control.  They cared very little for concepts of freedom or democracy or whatever Hollywood’s would have you believe.  They trained for war to keep their slaves from revolting to maintain their way of life.  That’s pretty much it.  Ever wonder why they only sent 300? Because everyone else were needed to keep the population in check.

Now if people want to believe in those things that you listed I have no issues with that.  Heck if they want to believe that Spartans were all that and a bag of chips and it makes them better people for it, cool.

From a historical perspective though, they were psychopaths that wanted to maintain a way of living that meant treating other people harshly even for the standard of those times.

The idea of sparta that we think of today is a noble one.  The reality is far from it.

Calling them morons is a bit of a simplification as i believe they were quite canny.  They avoided war far more than they engaged in it.  That required a lot of diplomacy and lot of acumen to pit your adversaries against each other.
I think one needs to separate the politics of the spartan from the warriors of Sparta.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2018, 19:05:58 »
Am I the only one who misread the title, and wondered why the Spartans were going door to door, wearing white shirts and ties?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKIOqJns5N8
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2018, 19:13:17 »
Yup....   :nod:

The Spartans Were Morons

Let’s face it, the Spartans were morons.

The next time you see a middle-aged, bearded, chubby cop or military dude dressed up like Donny Delta Force in morale patches, Velcro and “operator gear” festooned with Spartan helmet insignia, ask yourself: What are they really laying claim to?

https://taskandpurpose.com/the-spartans-were-morons/?utm_content=tp-facebook&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social

The ancient Greeks had many different helmet designs, but there is no such thing as a "Spartan helmet." What the author is probably thinking about is the Corinthian style helmets that were in use throughout Greece and Italy.





























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Offline EpicBeardedMan

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2018, 19:18:53 »

 If you compare Sparta to any of the Greek states of the day.  Heck you can look at Persia at the time as being way more enlightened by comparison.

Considering the Spartans were supplied BY the Persians........
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Offline Remius

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2018, 19:26:11 »
I think one needs to separate the politics of the spartan from the warriors of Sparta.

Except for the fact that Sparta is a warrior culture.  All Spartan citizens were of the warrior class.  The Warriors of Sparta were in fact the politics of Sparta.
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Offline Remius

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2018, 19:37:30 »
Considering the Spartans were supplied BY the Persians........

Bought, paid off. ;)  Sparta needed Persian support to further their aims on a few occasions. Not to mention the mercenaries they would send over.  Or when they tried to go after the Macedonians while they were where busy fighting the Persians in Ionia.
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Offline Remius

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2018, 19:43:32 »
Wouldn't the historians of the day, really be more like the MSM of the day?   :D

All things considered there is an element of truth to what you just said. 

I’m not 100% sure but I’m pretty sure just about anything contemporary was written by non Spartan writers.  Herodotus is generally considered a pretty good source though.  Spartans weren’t much on writing.  Not due to any lack of ability but it goes to the minimalistic aspect of their culture.
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Offline Altair

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Re: The Spartans Were Morons
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2018, 19:51:57 »
Except for the fact that Sparta is a warrior culture.  All Spartan citizens were of the warrior class.  The Warriors of Sparta were in fact the politics of Sparta.
correct.  However,  while warriors in the field,  I can get exemplifying them,  outside the battlefield,  not so much.

Greece would have been better served completely unified with the spartans as their shock troops. There is a case for having brutal,  tough,  born and breed warriors, but there needs to be a creative,  productive,  innovative society backing them.

That said,  for those in a warrior profession the spartans are a inspiration.
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