Author Topic: We’ve given up on Canada’s military, so let’s abandon it altogether  (Read 30807 times)

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Offline Halifax Tar

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We’ve given up on Canada’s military, so let’s abandon it altogether

We could save billions we’d otherwise spend on duct tape for our fleets and squadrons. We could keep some soldiers for disaster response—but they don’t need guns

Scott Gilmore

January 29, 2018

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/weve-given-up-on-canadas-military-so-lets-abandon-it-altogether/
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Somehow I don’t think the writer was serious.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline JacobPayne17

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Somehow I don’t think the writer was serious.
I hope not

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Offline FSTO

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I agree that the Canadian public could give two rats about the CAF unless they are being flooded, burned or frozen out of their home. But a lot of his points are pure overwhelmingly stupid uninformed opinions.

Offline Halifax Tar

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Somehow I don’t think the writer was serious.
I hope not

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Did you read the article ?
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Offline Halifax Tar

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I agree that the Canadian public could give two rats about the CAF unless they are being flooded, burned or frozen out of their home. But a lot of his points are pure overwhelmingly stupid uninformed opinions.

Sarcasm perhaps ?  Frustration ?
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jollyjacktar

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I agree that the Canadian public could give two rats about the CAF unless they are being flooded, burned or frozen out of their home. But a lot of his points are pure overwhelmingly stupid uninformed opinions.

If he is saying, that we are a shadow of our former selves and not much better than a paper tiger in some respects, l can't totally fault him.  As has been stated in other threads by many more wise than l, subsequent sitting Governments have willfully whittled us down with a death by a thousand cuts.

It is a damn good thing we're hard to get to and have a large neighbour in this duplex that is North America that would be pissed off if our side started to burn down.  Because we sure as crap couldn't defend our turf for very long against a serious threat.

So, do we crap or get off the pot? 

Offline Halifax Tar

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If he is saying, that we are a shadow of our former selves and not much better than a paper tiger in some respects, l can't totally fault him.  As has been stated in other threads by many more wise than l, subsequent sitting Governments have willfully whittled us down with a death by a thousand cuts.

It is a damn good thing we're hard to get to and have a large neighbour in this duplex that is North America that would be pissed off if our side started to burn down.  Because we sure as crap couldn't defend our turf for very long against a serious threat.

So, do we crap or get off the pot?

I think you're picking up what the author is putting down.
Lead me, follow me or get the hell out of my way

Offline FSTO

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If he is saying, that we are a shadow of our former selves and not much better than a paper tiger in some respects, l can't totally fault him.  As has been stated in other threads by many more wise than l, subsequent sitting Governments have willfully whittled us down with a death by a thousand cuts.

It is a damn good thing we're hard to get to and have a large neighbour in this duplex that is North America that would be pissed off if our side started to burn down.  Because we sure as crap couldn't defend our turf for very long against a serious threat.

So, do we crap or get off the pot?

I hear you.
And yes we have been using the USA like a rented mule since about 1965. I guess I over reacted to the comment about the submarines. Even though I'm not a submariner those guys and gals are pure professionals.

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We all are. 

Offline winnipegoo7

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satire

[sat-ahyuh r]

noun

the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.

synonyms:   
mockery, ridicule, derision, scorn, caricature.

Offline EpicBeardedMan

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Truer words have never been spoken... in regards to politics, not so much the CF, that part stings.

Quote
Because for parties of all stripes, that is the single most important role of the Armed Forces—optics. It allows politicians to look bold, and it allows the country to pretend that we are a useful ally.
The military isn't really like a James Bond movie where you go for jet training in the morning and then underwater demolitions after lunch.

Offline AbdullahD

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Maybe scale back the Canadian military, but evolve it at the same time to far more specialized use??

I do not pretend to know squat about the military.. But if we can not do quantity, why not do quality? Ie evolve the Canadian military into specialist positions that our allies need to rely on, or do rely on?

Instead of a pure base from our armed forces branch, reduce that talent pool and pull talent from the RCMP, CSIS and local policing forces... focus more on training as well (which I believe we have a foot in on) etc etc

I'm just talking out my rear end here, but if we have a big Canadian forces that is I'll equppied I'd feel like we are sending our people to die. if however it is tiny, but highly educated and equipped.. I'd feel it would be better.

My ramblings sorry
Abdullah

Offline Piece of Cake

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Maybe scale back the Canadian military, but evolve it at the same time to far more specialized use??

I do not pretend to know squat about the military.. But if we can not do quantity, why not do quality? Ie evolve the Canadian military into specialist positions that our allies need to rely on, or do rely on?

Instead of a pure base from our armed forces branch, reduce that talent pool and pull talent from the RCMP, CSIS and local policing forces... focus more on training as well (which I believe we have a foot in on) etc etc

I'm just talking out my rear end here, but if we have a big Canadian forces that is I'll equppied I'd feel like we are sending our people to die. if however it is tiny, but highly educated and equipped.. I'd feel it would be better.

My ramblings sorry
Abdullah

I would be happy to see Canada fulfill its NATO commitments and spend 2 percent of our GDP on defence.
Policy is more than black and white.  We need to not only understand the spirit of why a policy was written, but also how the policy affects people.

Offline ballz

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To some extent he's right... but there is a huge fallacy, IMO, that our problems in the CAF are largely related to not having enough money.

Our problems are related to policy surrounding the money (outside of our control, although I think the higher level leadership could at least *try* to influence), particularly around procurement (very much a purely political issue), and also very poor, poor, poor, financial management. We don't just spend inefficiently when we do spend, we also don't ena

The financial management side is almost wholly within our control. Our L2 just turned in $300,000 back to L1 in advance because we know we can't spend it. The fin staff wanted to turn back more but the Comd wants to give every opportunity to get it spent. We're almost guaranteed to turn in more. I spoke to all the units at Ex RELENTLESS WARRIOR and they can't even get small purchases of mats / equipment to support what is a huge growing positive movement, and yet here we are drowning in money.

There is a gaping disconnect between operators and finance. As an Infantry Officer, I never understood it. Money was the solution to all our "good ideas" and yet no one seemed interested in learning the in's and out's of getting more money for x,y,z, or even having their own budget and their own ability to control money. All I ever wanted was a budget and the DOA for EIA/Sect 32.

Now that I'm on the finance side, I see the other side of the frustrating coin. Finance blame operators because don't know anything about money, and yet I got looked at like I had 18 heads when I suggested we need to delegate financial authority down past the unit level so that the first time you see a budget in your career isn't when you are a LCol with a $2 mill operating budget and no clue how you can or can't use it and is just signing what the QM puts in front of him. We actually can't capture costs so that sub-units can start to have a budget, because they refuse to even assign sub-units cost centres out of fear that it will make things "too complicated," let alone encourage operators to actually get a grip over the resources they are using. [/tangent]
Many persons have a wrong idea of what constitutes true happiness. It is not attained through self-gratification, but through fidelity to a worthy purpose.
- Helen Keller

Offline ballz

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I would be happy to see Canada fulfill its NATO commitments and spend 2 percent of our GDP on defence.

I've said it before... I wouldn't give the DND another dime in its current form.
Many persons have a wrong idea of what constitutes true happiness. It is not attained through self-gratification, but through fidelity to a worthy purpose.
- Helen Keller

Offline Piece of Cake

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To some extent he's right... but there is a huge fallacy, IMO, that our problems in the CAF are largely related to not having enough money.

Our problems are related to policy surrounding the money (outside of our control, although I think the higher level leadership could at least *try* to influence), particularly around procurement (very much a purely political issue), and also very poor, poor, poor, financial management. We don't just spend inefficiently when we do spend, we also don't ena

The financial management side is almost wholly within our control. Our L2 just turned in $300,000 back to L1 in advance because we know we can't spend it. The fin staff wanted to turn back more but the Comd wants to give every opportunity to get it spent. We're almost guaranteed to turn in more. I spoke to all the units at Ex RELENTLESS WARRIOR and they can't even get small purchases of mats / equipment to support what is a huge growing positive movement, and yet here we are drowning in money.

There is a gaping disconnect between operators and finance. As an Infantry Officer, I never understood it. Money was the solution to all our "good ideas" and yet no one seemed interested in learning the in's and out's of getting more money for x,y,z, or even having their own budget and their own ability to control money. All I ever wanted was a budget and the DOA for EIA/Sect 32.

Now that I'm on the finance side, I see the other side of the frustrating coin. Finance blame operators because don't know anything about money, and yet I got looked at like I had 18 heads when I suggested we need to delegate financial authority down past the unit level so that the first time you see a budget in your career isn't when you are a LCol with a $2 mill operating budget and no clue how you can or can't use it and is just signing what the QM puts in front of him. We actually can't capture costs so that sub-units can start to have a budget, because they refuse to even assign sub-units cost centres out of fear that it will make things "too complicated," let alone encourage operators to actually get a grip over the resources they are using. [/tangent]

I strongly believe that we should be teaching financial management as part of BMOQ.  Leaders need to understand how finances affects her / his troops.
Policy is more than black and white.  We need to not only understand the spirit of why a policy was written, but also how the policy affects people.

Offline daftandbarmy

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To some extent he's right... but there is a huge fallacy, IMO, that our problems in the CAF are largely related to not having enough money.

Our problems are related to policy surrounding the money (outside of our control, although I think the higher level leadership could at least *try* to influence), particularly around procurement (very much a purely political issue), and also very poor, poor, poor, financial management. We don't just spend inefficiently when we do spend, we also don't ena

The financial management side is almost wholly within our control. Our L2 just turned in $300,000 back to L1 in advance because we know we can't spend it. The fin staff wanted to turn back more but the Comd wants to give every opportunity to get it spent. We're almost guaranteed to turn in more. I spoke to all the units at Ex RELENTLESS WARRIOR and they can't even get small purchases of mats / equipment to support what is a huge growing positive movement, and yet here we are drowning in money.

There is a gaping disconnect between operators and finance. As an Infantry Officer, I never understood it. Money was the solution to all our "good ideas" and yet no one seemed interested in learning the in's and out's of getting more money for x,y,z, or even having their own budget and their own ability to control money. All I ever wanted was a budget and the DOA for EIA/Sect 32.

Now that I'm on the finance side, I see the other side of the frustrating coin. Finance blame operators because don't know anything about money, and yet I got looked at like I had 18 heads when I suggested we need to delegate financial authority down past the unit level so that the first time you see a budget in your career isn't when you are a LCol with a $2 mill operating budget and no clue how you can or can't use it and is just signing what the QM puts in front of him. We actually can't capture costs so that sub-units can start to have a budget, because they refuse to even assign sub-units cost centres out of fear that it will make things "too complicated," let alone encourage operators to actually get a grip over the resources they are using. [/tangent]

Other public sector organizations, as well as the private sector, are strong on performance managing their leaders related to strategic management, goal achievement and associated budget alignment.

I assume that we don't do that stuff.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Quirky

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As a lowly worker bee junior NCM I could care less about planes or ships or helicopters. I have no control over the state of our military and it’s easy to see it’s mostly a political problem. ‘Don’t cut my pay or pension’ is the normal sentiment I keep hearing. Do my 20-25 gtfo out of dodge and back into the real world.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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I think anyone with any sort of interests in Canadian Defence matters needs a healthy dose of expectation management.  I also think our Defence priorities are misplaced at times due to historic links. 

Some things we are doing well are growing SOF and the Intelligence community.  There have been some hiccups but long term I see these trends as a positive.  I also see the NSPS as a positive development and hope that it leads to a more capable Navy in the future with more capability. 

Fighter debacle, Armed UAVs, lack of RAS and sea based AAW are things that need an immediate fix IMO.  Complaints in the military are often Army centric.  My opinion is the Regular Army is too large and has an oversized voice in the halls of power. 

Offline E.R. Campbell

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My, very personal, opinion is that while come countries are so weak, so poor, so corrupt and so on that they are barely worth the title of "country," and cannot be expected to defend themselves, Canada is not amongst them.

Canada is, by most sensible measures, one of the Top 10 counties in the world; where we are not in the Top 10 we are, almost always, in the top 10% ... we are rich, sophisticated and stable, we should be a model for the world.

That we choose, consciously, to not try to defend ourselves or to do a full and fair share of the "heavy lifting" for the common defence of The West or to help those who cannot defend them selves against aggression says, I fear, more about us, as Canadians, than about the governments we elect.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Complaints in the military are often Army centric.  My opinion is the Regular Army is too large and has an oversized voice in the halls of power.

I am not convince that is so, HB. While the Army has an overblown view of itself by pretending of being a four division Corps when it can barely muster enough people to actually constitute a single division, I think that other than the re-organization needed to fit its real size, it is about right for a nation the size and with the world ranking of Canada.

What is missing is that the Air Forces and Navy of Canada have been let to whittle down too much. What is needed is for them to expand to what is truly needed.

Offline daftandbarmy

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My, very personal, opinion is that while come countries are so weak, so poor, so corrupt and so on that they are barely worth the title of "country," and cannot be expected to defend themselves, Canada is not amongst them.

Canada is, by most sensible measures, one of the Top 10 counties in the world; where we are not in the Top 10 we are, almost always, in the top 10% ... we are rich, sophisticated and stable, we should be a model for the world.

That we choose, consciously, to not try to defend ourselves or to do a full and fair share of the "heavy lifting" for the common defence of The West or to help those who cannot defend them selves against aggression says, I fear, more about us, as Canadians, than about the governments we elect.

"Every country has an army: it's own or someone else's." Konrad Adenauer
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Piece of Cake

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I am not convince that is so, HB. While the Army has an overblown view of itself by pretending of being a four division Corps when it can barely muster enough people to actually constitute a single division, I think that other than the re-organization needed to fit its real size, it is about right for a nation the size and with the world ranking of Canada.

What is missing is that the Air Forces and Navy of Canada have been let to whittle down too much. What is needed is for them to expand to what is truly needed.

I would tend to agree.  Back in the early 90's there were 90 000 reg force members.  We now stand at less than 68 000.  While all three elements saw reductions, the Air Force and the Navy were hit harder. 
Policy is more than black and white.  We need to not only understand the spirit of why a policy was written, but also how the policy affects people.

Offline daftandbarmy

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I would tend to agree.  Back in the early 90's there were 90 000 reg force members.  We now stand at less than 68 000.  While all three elements saw reductions, the Air Force and the Navy were hit harder.

If there's one thing we've done right, it's been maintaining 9 x Reg F Infantry battalions while others (like the British Army) have gone through many hoops of reorging.....
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon