Author Topic: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.  (Read 4787 times)

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Offline X Royal

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Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« on: February 09, 2018, 23:05:26 »

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2018, 23:14:54 »
A man claiming to be Williams' lawyer has posted a media release: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jckznfiyt5374w5/MEDIA%20RELEASE%20ON%20BEHALF%20OF%20DAVE.pdf?dl=0

This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline X Royal

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 23:35:32 »
Standard response from a lawyer and yes he is correct that Tiger Woods should be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 23:38:38 by X Royal »

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 23:40:08 »
Standard response from a lawyer and yes he is correct that Tiger Woods should be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

And so should Tiger Williams ;)
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
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Offline X Royal

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 23:46:55 »
OK you caught that slip-up.
Yes Tiger Williams should be considered innocent until proven guilty.
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2018, 14:15:52 »
Standard response from a lawyer and yes he is correct that Tiger Woods should be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Ha!  Saw this after work with some friends, and at least half thought it was Tiger Woods, not Williams.  One guy was really confused as to why Woods was on a Team Canada flight.
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2018, 22:23:35 »
In the bad, old days alcohol could be served on certain flights (I was on a couple) but the main pax were very senior adults (not only Canadian) and it did not get out of hand. This story from the Toronto Star seems to indicate that common sense and discipline missed some more recent flights. Based on what I saw on other flights, I am gobsmacked, although I saw one passenger lose control, but he was handled politely and firmly and all soon was well.

This story is posted under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Military insiders– unhappy with the behaviour seen on VIP flights to visit troops overseas -- are asking questions and demanding changes. Sorry for the length.


By BRUCE CAMPION-SMITHOttawa Bureau
Mon., Feb. 19, 2018
OTTAWA—“Party Bus” and “Mardi Gras at 35,000 feet” are a couple of the nicknames given to the military Airbus flights that fly entertainers, musicians and media stars overseas for morale-raising visits with deployed soldiers.

New questions are being raised about the booze-fuelled VIP trips and the oversight of senior commanders.

Former Maple Leafs player Dave “Tiger” Williams was charged with assault and sexual assault this month after a goodwill trip last December for alleged incidents involving a female flight attendant. On that same trip, two passengers wet themselves and several complaints were made over inappropriate behaviour.

Military insiders, unhappy with the behaviour seen on these tours, are asking questions and demanding changes.

Why was a passenger allowed to bring a 40-ounce bottle of alcohol on board the military jet in Ottawa for the December flight when travellers are forbidden from carrying liquids on commercial flights? Military flights depart from the Canada Reception Centre, but passengers typically still have to go through security screening.
Why were passengers allowed to chew tobacco in the cabin when regular soldiers returning from tours of duty abroad are disciplined for the same behaviour? In this case, flight attendants were expressly told not to stop the passengers from chewing tobacco. Beer cans used for tobacco spit were left “all over the plane.”
“That’s hypocritical beyond words,” one source said.

Why were several apparently inebriated passengers allowed to board in Ottawa on Dec. 2, when airlines typically ban intoxicated travellers from boarding their flights?
Senior commanders have yet to speak about the December trip and military spokespersons have been guarded in their comments so far, citing the criminal charges against Williams and an ongoing internal investigation.

But military and defence department sources, talking to the Star on the condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to speak publicly and because they fear retribution, are speaking out about these Team Canada trips.

They paint a picture of overseas flights that feature heavy drinking and a disregard for military rules and even the aviation regulations that govern passengers who fly commercial flights. “Flight attendants were told last October that on VIP flights, passengers get whatever they want, rules do not apply,” one source said.

While the December trip is in the spotlight, sources tell the Star that the tours — run for the past 12 years — have always been known for excessive drinking and a party atmosphere where sometimes passengers pass out or vomit after drinking too much.

Flight attendants who join the Trenton-based squadron that operates the fleet of Airbus aircraft have been told that the Team Canada flights are fun, but they can expect the passengers to be “handsy” and that “they’ll be all over you,” one source said.

Sources say that not all flight attendants who work on these flights have been formally trained to serve alcohol or to recognize the signs of inebriation. And although the flight was not tame, one source told the Star the “vast majority” of passengers were well-behaved.

The military has refused to say who was part of the VIP contingent for the December tour.

Gen. Jonathan Vance, the chief of defence staff, was a last-minute scratch, skipping the trip because of other commitments.

The senior military members on the trip were Lt.-Gen. Alain Parent, the vice-chief of defence staff, and Chief Warrant Officer Kevin West, the most senior non-commissioned member of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Parent and West watched movies and slept during the first leg of the trip to Athens. The military has said that neither became aware of the alleged assault involving Williams until after the trip was over. Also onboard was the civilian defence department employee who works out of Vance’s office to organize these trips.

Insiders question why military leaders travelling with the contingent failed to intervene to curb the drinking given that some passengers were “hammered,” yelling and trying to arm wrestle with the crew while music blared in the background.

“It was like a discotheque in there. The lights were down, there was booze everywhere. It was absolutely not what you would expect out of a flight, let alone a military one,” said one source familiar with what unfolded.

For this trip, the military Airbus was stocked with beer and wine and, unusually, a supply of hard liquor, including whiskey, rum and vodka.

A military spokesperson has said the liquor for the Team Canada flights is donated. But if the alcohol runs out during the trip, it gets restocked at taxpayer expense.

In the wake of the December trip, the military has put plans for a March goodwill trip on hold, in part because it’s having trouble finding VIPs to take part.

The military says it’s also now reviewing its alcohol policy for air force flights. Insiders want the booze cut back and hard liquor off the aircraft.

They say with high-ranking officers and VIP guests on these trips, the flight attendants often feel powerless to crack down on excessive drinking or bad behaviour. They want flight attendants to be empowered to stop serving drinks if a passenger has drunk too much without fear of retribution for “killing the party.”

They say all flight attendants should have the Smart Serve training required in Ontario for everyone who serves alcohol.

In a statement to the Star on Monday, the defence department said the Royal Canadian Air Force is conducting an administrative review into the incident “which will look at our policies and procedures regarding such flights.”

“We are also taking an extensive look at our Team Canada program, for which the next visit has been postponed until further notice,” the statement said.

“As we probe further into the matter to fully grasp every detail of the trip and the sequence of events, we will not comment further. We will allow the judicial and administrative processes to unfold as designed,” it said.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2018, 00:35:01 »
Smart Serve?

No. How about enforcing the no booze no tobacco rules.

But that would be “too hard”.

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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2018, 00:49:35 »
How about we scrap the "goodwill" flights completely?  Do they really improve morale? 
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Offline FJAG

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2018, 01:07:59 »
How about we scrap the "goodwill" flights completely?  Do they really improve morale?

That's what the latest reports are that it might go that way.

Personally I find that's the usual risk averse cop-out that the CF is famous for. One guy acts like a moron so you punish everyone by taking the privilege away. We're all grown ups. We can do better than that. Punish the guilty, not the innocents.

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Offline MCG

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2018, 02:18:42 »
So, a group of entertainers abused privileges that military personnel don’t get on military flights. Maybe dial it down to what one can get from cattle class on Air Canada.  You board sober, and you can only drink what you buy on the plane (and yes, have all the stewards smart serve qualified).  While you are at it, make that level of service available to the troops too.  I have never been on a CF flight that was not dry.

Offline FJAG

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2018, 03:21:40 »
My point exactly. We do business as if every one of our troops was the lowest common denominator. To ensure that one individual doesn't do something stupid, we just forbid everyone from doing activities that are basically legal.  We've created the nanny state for the CADPAT crowd.

If a service flight isn't going into an operational theater, why not sell alcohol like a commercial flight? I know. It's administratively more difficult.

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Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2018, 03:57:40 »
"Parent and West watched movies and slept during the first leg of the trip to Athens. The military has said that neither became aware of the alleged assault involving Williams until after the trip was over. Also onboard was the civilian defence department employee who works out of Vance’s office to organize these trips"

Perhaps they should of said something, I don't buy they were oblivious to the partying.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 04:20:01 by Chief Stoker »
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Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2018, 08:15:20 »
Just save the tax payer money and scrap VIP “morale” visits altogether.

I didn’t get to see, meet, play ball hockey etc. with any “famous” people while overseas nor did anyone else from my squadron, or many from the battle group at all for that matter and I don’t think any of us cried ourselves to sleep over it.

Seems to me these “morale” visits are more for the senior leadership than anyone else.

Want to up morale for deployed troops?  Use every nickel saved to buy us kit that actually works, but I digress.

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2018, 08:22:13 »
Just save the tax payer money and scrap VIP “morale” visits altogether.

I didn’t get to see, meet, play ball hockey etc. with any “famous” people while overseas nor did anyone else from my squadron, or many from the battle group at all for that matter and I don’t think any of us cried ourselves to sleep over it.

Seems to me these “morale” visits are more for the senior leadership than anyone else.

Want to up morale for deployed troops?  Use every nickel saved to buy us kit that actually works, but I digress.

100% agree.  I have seen them twice and both times it was forced fun.  And always seemed second rate to be honest.
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Offline pbi

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2018, 08:39:07 »
My point exactly. We do business as if every one of our troops was the lowest common denominator. To ensure that one individual doesn't do something stupid, we just forbid everyone from doing activities that are basically legal.  We've created the nanny state for the CADPAT crowd.

 :stirpot:

Your two posts have pointed out something I've always found disappointing and sometimes infuriating about the CAF: one or two clowns FIU because they're stupid or ill-disciplined, so instead of making disciplinary examples of these clowns, the service piles on more rules making everything illegal for everybody, and removing human judgement or discretion.

Take booze for example: it has always, always been a service offence to be under the influence on duty, since the days of KR&Os.  How did we fight WWI, II and Korea without a "dry" army? We did it, I suspect, by dealing with drunkenness on a case-by-case disciplinary basis.

It seems that rather than confront wrong-doers head on, and make examples of them  (regardless of rank), we just pile up a big heap of regulations. Which, by the way, may not always get enforced, either...
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2018, 09:15:29 »
100% agree.  I have seen them twice and both times it was forced fun.  And always seemed second rate to be honest.

I disagree. When Team Canada came to visit us in the gulf of Oman, it was a great refresher. They played music and had stand-up comedy on the flight-deck that was first rate, the speeches by the hockey players and entertainers really made us feel appreciated, and the 2-drink limit was relaxed (slightly) for that night.

I, for one, highly recommend that they keep this initiative going. Sure, maybe not everyone on a deployed op will get to even see these guys when they show up, but don't take the opportunity away from everyone just because you were station at a different base in theatre.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2018, 09:28:39 »
Quote from: Chief Stoker

Perhaps they should of said something, I don't buy they were oblivious to the partying.
[/quote

Same here. That's some weak CYA right there.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2018, 09:44:43 »
I disagree. When Team Canada came to visit us in the gulf of Oman, it was a great refresher. They played music and had stand-up comedy on the flight-deck that was first rate, the speeches by the hockey players and entertainers really made us feel appreciated, and the 2-drink limit was relaxed (slightly) for that night.

I, for one, highly recommend that they keep this initiative going. Sure, maybe not everyone on a deployed op will get to even see these guys when they show up, but don't take the opportunity away from everyone just because you were station at a different base in theatre.

Fair enough. 

FYI Both times I saw them were on my 2 RCN deployments.  Not my Afghan tours. 
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Offline Furniture

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2018, 09:59:56 »
I disagree. When Team Canada came to visit us in the gulf of Oman, it was a great refresher. They played music and had stand-up comedy on the flight-deck that was first rate, the speeches by the hockey players and entertainers really made us feel appreciated, and the 2-drink limit was relaxed (slightly) for that night.

I, for one, highly recommend that they keep this initiative going. Sure, maybe not everyone on a deployed op will get to even see these guys when they show up, but don't take the opportunity away from everyone just because you were station at a different base in theatre.

My experience on board from my trips was very different. It was mandatory fun time that prevented people from being able to go ashore and relax in a way of their choosing, or worse forced people on 1in2 to be awake to be "entertained". "Mandatory fun" is one of those two words, and usually not the latter...

The only example of it on ship that I saw that was handled well in my experience, was from my last trip when we had "Team Canada" come out for the Canada 150 celebrations in Busan, South Korea. It was not mandatory for people to attend, and because we were alongside we were allowed to drink if we wanted. People actually came out in numbers and had a good time, then we all went to bed and sailed the next day without serious incident. We likely would have had just as much fun without "Team Canada" though, as it was Canada Day and we were alongside in Busan.

The only other example I remember fondly was when the Stanley Cup was brought to KAF back in spring '07 and I happened to be in switching between troops before heading back out.

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2018, 10:09:14 »
My morale seldom required second-rate entertainers and has-been athletes; I usually volunteered to take a duty shift to free up someone who was interested. 
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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2018, 11:09:05 »
My morale seldom required second-rate entertainers and has-been athletes; I usually volunteered to take a duty shift to free up someone who was interested. 

There were no entertainers on any of my deployments...just political tourists and reporters.  Apparently we were supposed to be entertained by what we saw going on around us and be happy to be in such exotic places at Crown expense  ;D.

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Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2018, 14:31:38 »
I disagree. When Team Canada came to visit us in the gulf of Oman, it was a great refresher. They played music and had stand-up comedy on the flight-deck that was first rate, the speeches by the hockey players and entertainers really made us feel appreciated, and the 2-drink limit was relaxed (slightly) for that night.

I, for one, highly recommend that they keep this initiative going. Sure, maybe not everyone on a deployed op will get to even see these guys when they show up, but don't take the opportunity away from everyone just because you were station at a different base in theatre.

Now I know this is going to open a can of worms but I’m going to offer my opinion on this.  Using Afghanistan as an example, the only people who got to benefit from the morale visits were those in KAF, who by battle group standards had a very high quality of life.  It could actually be construed as a morale killer to those who don’t get to watch a concert while drinking their nightly timmies on the boardwalk.

Further, being that we were told we had to take all our patches off etc. in KAF because people there complained they weren’t allowed to wear them and it isn’t fair they didn’t get to do the same as others outside the wire.  Well I argue if not everyone can watch the concert then that’s not fair either and therefore nobody should get to. 

Back on topic though, it’s evident these flights are just another example of the higher ups hypocrisy of “do what I say not what I do.” I don’t believe for one second the VCDS or CWO West weren’t aware what was going on around them on an 8+ hour flight.

Scrap these waste of tax payer money party flights of entertainers nobody has heard of most of the time.

Offline Towards_the_gap

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2018, 14:35:39 »
How about we scrap the "goodwill" flights completely?  Do they really improve morale?

I made much the same point on FB. 12 years between Brit and Canuck armies, and during that time, not once during any number of overseas deployment did the appearance of some C-list, past-their-prime, trotting out offering up lame jokes and the random cheerleader squad courtesy of the USO, improve my morale one iota.

These 'team canada' jaunts seem more to be self-aggrandising back-slapping on both parts, the leadership getting away from their desks and the random 'celebrities' for whom the red carpet is rolled out for.

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Re: Tiger Williams charged by MP's.
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2018, 16:21:45 »
The only other example I remember fondly was when the Stanley Cup was brought to KAF back in spring '07 and I happened to be in switching between troops before heading back out.

I was there for that.  I know it made the hockey fans happy.  For myself, l was happy for the BBQ and beer that came with it.
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