Author Topic: Refusing his/her release  (Read 5392 times)

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Offline DARTAGNAN

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Refusing his/her release
« on: March 01, 2018, 20:42:04 »
I won't give more details but I wanted to know what could happen if a member voluntarily failed to do the paperwork before the date of his/her release because he/she feels that his/her admin review process has been unfairly conducted ?

And what would be the member avenues ? 

Offline medicineman

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2018, 21:26:18 »
Given the speed of some releases I've seen over the years, the paperwork would not only be done for you, it would in fact be expedited.  If you/your firend/comrade/subordinate think there is an issue with their AR, then a formal redress would need to be written.  There is usually a timeline and the person concerned usually has an assisting officer appointed for such things.
 
 :2c:

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2018, 01:33:17 »
As a directed release, one can not refuse to be released; the process will happen whether you want it to or not. If you feel your AR was unfair, then there are going to be instructions given to you on how to proceed, as part of your disclosure package. You can not file a redress of grievance once you're released, so if you feel that you have been unfairly treated, you need to get on with it now.
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Offline WEng87

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2018, 08:12:14 »
You have 15 business days from the date you are given your AR Disclosure package, to submit written representation for yourself to your CoC and DMCA.

I had a member who would not accept their AR Disclosure, would not lay hands on it....  the process still carried on, 15 days after the fact and there was still no written representation.... again, the process proceeded and DMCA made their decision based on what they had.

So you/they/him/her should really take those 15 days to write a solid representation against every point in your disclosure package....  if you are still not happy with the decision after that, then go the regular route of grievences.  (I'd have this prepared before the decision comes back, ready to submit in the instance that your release happens quickly)

my  :2c:

Offline DARTAGNAN

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2018, 08:37:58 »
All interesting answers but the CAF prefer releasing a member rather to know the bottom of the story. For the member's story, there have been already two grievances, second one is for unfair PRB that led to an admin review (grievance has been submitted in early 2017). The CAF had the time to conduct two full admin reviews while none of the grievances have been answered and are the causes of the AR, that is simply an administrative failure on their side. 

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2018, 08:38:32 »
Agree with the advice given.  Process moves on regardless.  A representation by the member is a last chance to plead your case. If you feel you're treated unfairly then it itemize it in the representation.  Refusing to do it doesn't stop the process.

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Offline medicineman

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2018, 08:40:10 »
I had a member who would not accept their AR Disclosure, would not lay hands on it....  the process still carried on, 15 days after the fact and there was still no written representation.... again, the process proceeded and DMCA made their decision based on what they had.

I'm still amazed at how many people out there still think if they don't look at or sign something that it doesn't count (PER's, AR's, etc), just because they don't agree with it.  With the short fuse on the AR's, as much as it's something they don't want to hear, you'd think that people would stop tossing the teddy in the corner and come up with a coherent reason they shouldn't be shown the door.  Part of the grief process I guess - denial and anger.

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Offline DARTAGNAN

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2018, 08:49:16 »
But how is this relevant when grievances can take up to two years to be dealt with and the member already set a new life out there ? How grievance that has been submitted 6 months prior to the first of two admin reviews has still not being answered ?

Online mariomike

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2018, 08:55:07 »
Some of this may be relevant as background. Adding for reference to the discussion,
https://milnet.ca/forums/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=117874
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 09:21:32 by mariomike »
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Offline WEng87

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2018, 09:45:36 »
But how is this relevant when grievances can take up to two years to be dealt with and the member already set a new life out there ? How grievance that has been submitted 6 months prior to the first of two admin reviews has still not being answered ?

an AR can/does/will happen even if there are grievances still on the table unanswered.  I had a peer submit a grievance over his AR the day before he turned in his ID, not sure how that turned out in the end.

Offline DARTAGNAN

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2018, 10:17:45 »
I know all this. But am I the only one to think when grievances have been going on over a year, the system is possibly failing to avoid an admin  burden on their side in the case the member should have not been released in the first place  because grievance system  do not talk to admin review system ? Its still some admin to bring a guy in. We are sorry, we've been  too impetuous to kick out because we have a dysfunctional  system that's working at many different speeds and do not communicate between each other and after some wondering why we struggle to enroll people...

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2018, 10:25:09 »
If we're going to talk about admin burdens, you may fall under that category. Just because you don't agree with the system doesn't mean it's wrong. After looking at your posting history, you've got 2 grievances, a PRB, and multiple major medical issues in your short career thus far.

Maybe it's not the system's fault here...

Offline Pusser

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2018, 11:08:02 »
I know all this. But am I the only one to think when grievances have been going on over a year, the system is possibly failing to avoid an admin  burden on their side in the case the member should have not been released in the first place  because grievance system  do not talk to admin review system ? Its still some admin to bring a guy in. We are sorry, we've been  too impetuous to kick out because we have a dysfunctional  system that's working at many different speeds and do not communicate between each other and after some wondering why we struggle to enroll people...

The AR and grievance processes are separate and they need to be.  They each take a separate look at the situation (albeit from different points of view) and make decisions independently.  This is more fair than the possibility of one process simply taking the work of the other process and judging whether the process was correct without looking at actual problem.  Note that it is possible to grieve the AR process as well if you feel that mistakes were made.

Although there are time limits at the CO and Initial Authority (IA) levels of grievances, there are none at the Final Authority (FA) level.  Again this is a good thing.  This allows the FA to conduct a thorough analysis of the entire situation before rendering a decision.  Although the FA will look at the IA decision, it will not form the basis of the FA decision, which will come from a completely new and separate analysis.  FA decisions can and often do overturn IA decisions.

Note also, that one of the possible outcomes of the grievance process is an order to reinstate a member who has been released.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2018, 12:10:58 »
You continue coming here seeking the answers you want rather than the answers that are accurate. You don’t like that you’re being released and you feel hard done by. Got it. At this point the last suggestion that can probably be offered is that you seek a lawyer versed in military law and process.

It is not unusual for members of the CAF who are on the way out involuntarily to feel that they are victims of some wrongful process. Typically that is not the case. The military simply prioritizes the effective functioning of the military, and not every individual is suited to that. Perhaps you would be best served by directing your energies towards preparing for transition into a civilian career of some sort, rather than kicking at the waves in hopes the tide won’t come in.
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2018, 12:37:09 »
It seems what you want is to be able to drag out a release indefinitely by submitting grievances.  How is that fair to the CAF and its members?
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2018, 12:51:10 »
All interesting answers but the CAF prefer releasing a member rather to know the bottom of the story. For the member's story, there have been already two grievances, second one is for unfair PRB that led to an admin review (grievance has been submitted in early 2017). The CAF had the time to conduct two full admin reviews while none of the grievances have been answered and are the causes of the AR, that is simply an administrative failure on their side.

I appreciate the effort you're trying to put in by attempting to speak generally, or suggesting that your questions are referring to another member's situation. But it's fairly easy to assume, by your previous posts, that you're referring to yourself. For the sake of clarity and for those who are trying their best to answer your questions, please just say I or me.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 12:54:19 by BeyondTheNow »
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Online mariomike

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2018, 13:00:25 »
I appreciate the effort you're trying to put in by attempting to speak generally, or suggesting that your questions are referring to another member's situation. But it's fairly easy to assume, by your previous posts, that you're referring to yourself. For the sake of clarity and for those who are trying their best to answer your questions, please just say I or me.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2018, 16:33:12 »
Given the speed of some releases I've seen over the years, the paperwork would not only be done for you, it would in fact be expedited.  If you/your firend/comrade/subordinate think there is an issue with their AR, then a formal redress would need to be written.  There is usually a timeline and the person concerned usually has an assisting officer member appointed for such things.
 
 :2c:

MM

Just for accuracy...AMs are for grievances (AOs are another function) and can be NCMs (Sgt/PO2 and above) or Officers; there is an actual qual for AM now.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 16:43:37 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2018, 16:42:54 »
All interesting answers but the CAF prefer releasing a member rather to know the bottom of the story. For the member's story, there have been already two grievances, second one is for unfair PRB that led to an admin review (grievance has been submitted in early 2017). The CAF had the time to conduct two full admin reviews while none of the grievances have been answered and are the causes of the AR, that is simply an administrative failure on their side.

If the grievances went to the IA, who rendered a decision that the griever did not agree with and referred it to the FA, the FA is not bound to any timeline what-so-ever.  Just a point to note.  If the grievances did not meet their timelines for the IA initially, the griever also has the right and ability to tell the IA to fwd to the FA for determination;  again, the FA has no timelines they must adhere to.

But, I am a little bewildered.  2 grievances were submitted that were never answered and those grievances caused 2 ARs?  Did the member ever receive F & R from the Grievance Committee?

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-07.page#cha-007-18

7.21 - TYPES OF GRIEVANCES TO BE REFERRED TO GRIEVANCES COMMITTEE

For the purposes of subsection 29.12(1) of the National Defence Act, the final authority shall refer to the Grievances Committee any grievance relating to one or more of the following matters:
a.administrative action resulting in the forfeiture of or deductions from pay and allowances, reversion to a lower rank or release from the Canadian Forces;
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Offline medicineman

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2018, 19:43:29 »
Just for accuracy...AMs are for grievances (AOs are another function) and can be NCMs (Sgt/PO2 and above) or Officers; there is an actual qual for AM now.

Interesting...though when I did it last, I was named as the AO (was a WO), but that was 8/9years ago.  Nice that you get a course now. 

MM


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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2018, 15:24:00 »
Ya, there were some significant changes in '14...

CANFORGEN 091/14 COS VCDS 016/14 020001z jun 14

Important changes to Canadian Forces Grievance System

unclassified

refs: a. NDA sections 29 - 29.15 b. QR and O chapter 7 c. DAOD 2017 series d. Armed forces council decisions 14 oct 2010

1. Bill C-15, which received royal assent on 19 june 2013, introduced three key changes to the grievances section of the National Defence Act (NDA): the Canadian Forces Grievance Board (CFGB), an independent external body with the mandate to provide findings and recommendations to the cds, was renamed as the Military Grievances External Review Committee (MGERC) to better capture the nature of its relationship with the CAF
a.the NDA now includes grievance provisions specific to military judges
b.the CDS possesses more discretion to delegate his powers, duties and functions as Final Authority (FA) in the CF grievance process

2. As directed at ref d, the Canadian Forces Grievance Authority (CFGA) has worked diligently to improve many aspects of the CF Grievance System (CFGS). These improvements include:
a.new training for assisting members and grievance analysts
b.the implementation of the Notice Of Intent to Grieve
c.more visibility on the grievance portfolio through monthly reports on the DGCFGA DWAN site
d.a staff manual for Initial Authorities (IA)
e.the digitization of the grievance administration process

3. the main objective is to improve the fairness and responsiveness of the grievance system for CAF members. a related objective is to set the condition for the final authority to consider and determine the majority of grievances, when required, within 12 months of the date they were submitted to the grievor’s CO as a result of these various initiatives, QR and O chapter 7 has been amended to adjust time limits as well as to provide more detailed direction to the stakeholders in the grievance process. a new version of DAOD 2017-1 will be promulgated shortly

4. The following major changes to the cf grievance system took place on 1 June 2014:
a.a grievance must be submitted within three months (vice six months) after the day on which the member knew or ought reasonably to have known of the decision, act or omission in respect of which the grievance is submitted. However, if this day is before 1 June 2014, the grievance shall be submitted within six months of the date of discovery
b.a commanding officer (CO) who cannot act as the IA because he/she cannot grant the redress sought must forward the grievance within 10 days of receipt to the CFGA
c.an IA shall consider and determine a grievance within four months of its receipt (vice 60 days). The time limit of 60 days remains for all grievances submitted before 1 June 2014
d.upon receipt of an IA decision, a grievor who does not believe that the IA provided the redress that was warranted may submit to the IA, for forwarding to the FA, a request to consider and determine the grievance. the grievor must submit such a request in writing, within 30 days of the grievor’s receipt of the IA decision, and include in it the reason for the request. However, a grievor who receives an IA decision before 1 June 2014 may request that the grievance be referred to the FA within 90 days of receipt of that IA decision
e.the CO of a member who submits a grievance or gives notice of an intent to grieve shall assign without delay an officer or a NCM of sergeant or above to assist the grievor. The grievor is not required to use this assistance. The grievor may request that a particular person be assigned. if it is practical and the person agrees to act in that capacity, they shall be assigned as assisting member. When the assisting member is unable or unwilling to continue to assist the member, a new assisting member shall be assigned as soon as possible

5. All commanding officers and supervisors are encouraged to review QR and O chapter 7. Questions regarding this CANFORGEN may be addressed to CFGA at toll free 1-866-474-3867, commercial 613-944-5549, CSN 944-5549 or by email to dgcfga@forces.gc.ca 
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Offline WEng87

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2018, 08:00:12 »
It seems what you want is to be able to drag out a release indefinitely by submitting grievances.  How is that fair to the CAF and its members?

I have a Mbr in my CoC doing this exact thing right now, we’re probably up to 5 or 6 grievances this year...  double digits of them last year....  IA came back with their decision on a few of them and s/he would not accept them...

If the CO misses getting the grievance submitted and the official grievance number to him even by a couple of hours.... another grievance goes in....  there’s a grievance about a grievance for another grievance. About the initial grievance... if that makes sense.

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2018, 10:35:13 »
Somebody needs to have the term ADMINISTRATIVE BURDEN explained to them. Of course that would likely only result in another grievance, but it would certainly make the point. Question thought... are these grievances warranted? Has there been an investigation done to ascertain why one member files so many?
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Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2018, 10:36:45 »
There must be a three credit high school course on gaming the system. Military life was way more fun when we didn't know we had rights.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Refusing his/her release
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2018, 11:39:50 »
I have a Mbr in my CoC doing this exact thing right now, we’re probably up to 5 or 6 grievances this year...  double digits of them last year....  IA came back with their decision on a few of them and s/he would not accept them...

If the CO misses getting the grievance submitted and the official grievance number to him even by a couple of hours.... another grievance goes in....  there’s a grievance about a grievance for another grievance. About the initial grievance... if that makes sense.

QR&Os don't set a limit on the number of grievances you can submit, so in theory a unit could literally be shut down by a sudden flood of grievances. Sort of like a denial of service attack. If 150 jr ranks submitted 2-3 well written grievance each pertaining to actual decisions by their change of command where they felt they had been aggrieved, what the heck would leadership do? You can't possibly expect a unit to process 450 grievances following the official process.

This is totally hypothetical, and obviously you would have to assume that something else was afoot.

But where do you draw the line? It's very clear when you do the training that you shall not be punished for submitting a grievance. If the member referenced above keeps submitting grievances, is their a point where someone in the military (CDS?) has the authority to step and say, "yes, you are submitting perfectly valid and properly formatted grievances, but you are causing unmanageable strain on the system and affecting military efficiency; you're out."?
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