Author Topic: Jeans & mass punishment? #2  (Read 24118 times)

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Offline Infanteer

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RMC Jeans/dresscode issue
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2018, 12:14:45 »
It helps if dress codes are properly defined.  Although there are variance of opinion, most of the explanations I've seen fit the image I've attached.

White Tie/Black Tie = Ceremonial Dress/Mess Dress (No 1 and No 2 orders of dress in the CAF Dress Manual)
Semi Formal/Business Formal = Service Dress with jacket tie (No 3 and 3a in the manual)
Business Casual = Service Dress with no tie/sweater (No 3b, c, and d in the manual)

Also note that Business Casual does not include jeans (as alluded to by OGBD).  Casual may include clean jeans with a collared shirt; it still looks clean, and one still should follow the standard rules of dress - belt matches shoes, socks match pants, etc, etc.  Relaxed (called "sloppy" or "ultra casual") is whatever you want - it also is probably what 90% of us where 90% of the time - I'm a shorts, sandals and t-shirt kind of guy.

Note all these rules apply to women as well, as well as additional rules for the wear of dresses.  So when everyone gets told the dress is business casual for an event, women should not show up in yoga pants (saw it happen).

Something like this should be promulgated in every workplace, so that the standard is plain and clear to everyone.  I've seen a lot of confusion arise when a CO (or some other leader) makes a few offhand comments about "come dressed appropriately" but doesn't set the standard on what appropriate is.  Any good event invitation tells you what the dress standard is so you aren't embarrassed by showing up over-dressed or under-dressed.

So, there are three issues at play with regards to this story:

1.  What's the dress code?  If it's business casual, don't wear jeans.  If its casual, wear jeans but look presentable.  If it's relaxed, where whatever you want.  It ain't hard.

2.  What dress code should the school apply to its students on and off duty hours?  That's up to the school to decide and there are arguments for both sides.

3.  What should the students do when given their dress code by their superior officers?  Follow their damn orders.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 19:58:48 by BeyondTheNow »
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2018, 12:21:26 »
Alright, I'm going to weigh in here and hopefully provide you all with some context to this situation.  For those who don't know, I'm an instructor at RMC and a member of the Training Wing Staff so the first thing I will say is there is a lot more to this story than what has been reported in the media and the version that is being pushed by many Cadets on Social Media is one side of the story, there is another.

I'll start by talking about the Special Staff Assistance Visit (SSAV) where all of this came from.  Coles notes version, The CDS launched the SSAV last year as a result of a number of incidents at the College stemming from a breakdown in Discipline, Poor Morale and a Systemic Toxic Command Climate at the College.  The report which I will link, gave a list of recommendations that the Military should adopt in order to make the necessary changes at the College.  The CDS gave the order that all of the recommendations would be implemented and personally hand picked a team of Officers to sort the College out.  Additional NCO's were brought in, Squadron Commanders were all replaced with an entirely new team tasked with supporting the CDS initiative to change the culture of the College.

SSAV Link:  https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/reports-publications/special-staff-assistance-visit.html

I can personally tell you that the problems when I arrived here 8 months ago were monumental.  There was no standard, no enforcement of discipline, the actual administration of the Cadets themselves was a disaster. Even the infrastructure at the campus was a dilapidated mess with many of the dorms being in a very poor state of repair.  This was surprising to me considering I was a Cadet a little less than a decade ago and the College had undergone a number of massive infrastructure revitalization programs.

Worst of all, College Policy had strayed very far from CAF Policy.  The very first thing the new Command Team did when they arrived was rip up the Cadet Wing Instructions (CADWINS) which is the College Code of Conduct that RMC is allowed to have according to QR&O Volume IV, Appendix 6.1, 3.10 link: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-04/appx-06-01.page.  The QR&O's clearly state that RMC is allowed to have its own Code of Conduct which falls outside the Code of Service Discipline (CSD) and CAF Remedial Measures.  The reason for this is because RMC is first and foremost a "Training Institution" and uniquely, it is a four year long one where Cadets are supposed to be objectively assessed by Training Wing Staff as to their suitability to be future Officers in the Canadian Forces.  Secondly, the College has its own Code of Conduct with its own form of disciplinary measures as Cadets are expected to largely police themselves with Cadets in leadership positions being allowed to sanction other Cadets for breaching CADWINS.  This is used to keep Discipline to a high level and also to teach Cadets that they will be expected to uphold rules and regulations once they leave RMC.  Also, many of the offences committed day to day are not significant enough to warrant a CSD investigation. 

What people fail to understand is, CADWINS IS THE TRAINING. RMC training environment is one where future Officers are presented with a series of ethical & moral dilemmas (many very minuscule) that they are expected to formulate a plan and take decisive action.  It could be as simple as a Cadet skipped numerous classes at taxpayer expense to a Cadet committed a criminal offence such as sexual assault.  Bottom line, if you know something about it, you report it and do your job i.e. Uphold the NDA which the CADWINS falls under.  I am one Officer, with a Warrant Officer as my 2IC and we are responsible for monitoring 86 Cadets ourselves.  It is impossible for me to police them 24/7 therefore I rely on them to police themselves.  I can tell you that I sign off on every disciplinary sanction taken by my Senior Cadets and there isn't one thing I don't know about.  I also step in when the situation is too difficult or sensitive for Cadets to handle.  Everything from attempted suicide, drug use, fighting, personal conflict, disciplinary infractions, alcohol abuse, etc.  I have dealt with them all this year and spent many weekends and my own personal time mentoring and training the Cadets so I can hopefully prepare them for the future. 

I am not alone in this, we were told when we got here and were offered the job that things at the College would change and new Squadron Commanders were expected to take an active role in the day to day life of their Cadets.  It is a big commitment but one that I really enjoy as 95% of the Cadets are awesome young Canadians that simply want to be in the military and serve their country. I participate in Intramural sports with the Cadets, I am involved with the Model UN club, all of my Cadets have my personal cellphone number, I Conduct all activities with the Cadets, I'm going to watch them do a drill competition in a couple of hours on a Sunday. 

Now as for this specific incident itself, as I said before, there is more to this story.  The Training Wing has spent the last eight months rewriting the CADWINS, it is presently being translated but has been reduced from a 350 page document to a 50 page document, a massive undertaking.  We are also redesigning the Military Component of the College along with the First Year Orientation Program.  There are many changes happening and all of them pertaining to the SSAV.  Contrary to what's been said in the media, the dress standard here has been significantly relaxed.  The Number 4 blues uniform is no longer worn by first years in town, there is no tiered system of dress for Cadets as there was before with different years being required to wear different outfits.  We have removed curfews for different years.  The only thing that has changed is that No Jeans are allowed to be worn off the Peninsula, which was the case anyways expect fourth years were allowed in years past.  We've done away with privileges for different years, everybody is the same.  FYI the jeans policy was under further review even before this happened, the message has always been "this may change but until it does, we expect you to follow the direction we've given".

It's easy to cherry pick what the College is doing when we have 78 different recommendations to work towards, some of them complimentary to each other.  This is where the misinformation is so difficult.  While dress standards were identified as a point of contention by Cadets, another thing identified was the Cadet Culture of "Cover your *** and that of your buddy rather than doing the right thing".  This has been something that the staff have persistently been working at changing and is the reason why the Cadets are presently confined to the Peninsula.

This is a culture we have been fighting since the beginning of the year and is still a real problem.  There has been a systemic issue of Senior Cadets not enforcing standards and this is the mechanism we are using to break this poor leadership habit.  If a Commanding Officer gives an Order and all the Senior NCOs in a Regiment choose to ignore it, what do you think would happen?  Yes 95% of Cadets follow the Orders the problem is those 95% let the 5% that couldn't give a damn and will be real pains in the *** for their troops when they leave here, walk all over them.  That culture has ended here and there is a new Regime in town that is holding people accountable.  The CDS has given us direction that Personal Accountability at all times is what we are to strive for. 

The Cadets that don't like this are the ones that are causing problems because they are finally being taken to task concerning their conduct and performance by a new group of Officers and NCOs that have more experience than previous groups of staff, understand policy and have the backing of the Chain of Command.  I have personally given two Cadets their walking papers since arriving here and more will be coming unless they get on board with the Program.  The message is a clear: shape up or ship out.




« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 16:08:44 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2018, 12:24:53 »
It helps if dress codes are properly defined.  Although there are variance of opinion, most of the explanations I've seen fit the image I've attached.

White Tie/Black Tie = Ceremonial Dress/Mess Dress (No 1 and No 2 orders of dress in the CAF Dress Manual)
Semi Formal/Business Formal = Service Dress with jacket tie (No 3 and 3a in the manual)
Business Casual = Service Dress with no tie/sweater (No 3b, c, and d in the manual)

Also note that Business Casual does not include jeans (as alluded to by OGBD).  Casual may include clean jeans with a collared shirt; it still looks clean, and one still should follow the standard rules of dress - belt matches shoes, socks match pants, etc, etc.  Relaxed (called "sloppy" or "ultra casual") is whatever you want - it also is probably what 90% of us where 90% of the time - I'm a shorts, sandals and t-shirt kind of guy.

Note all these rules apply to women as well, as well as additional rules for the wear of dresses.  So when everyone gets told the dress is business casual for an event, women should not show up in yoga pants (saw it happen).

Something like this should be promulgated in every workplace, so that the standard is plain and clear to everyone.  I've seen a lot of confusion arise when a CO (or some other leader) makes a few offhand comments about "come dressed appropriately" but doesn't set the standard on what appropriate is.  Any good event invitation tells you what the dress standard is so you aren't embarrassed by showing up over-dressed or under-dressed.

So, there are three issues at play with regards to this story:

1.  What's the dress code?  If it's business casual, don't wear jeans.  If its casual, wear jeans but look presentable.  If it's relaxed, where whatever you want.  It ain't hard.

2.  What dress code should the school apply to its students on and off duty hours?  That's up to the school to decide and there are arguments for both sides.

3.  What should the students do when given their dress code by their superior officers?  Follow their damn orders.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2018, 12:33:09 »
It helps if dress codes are properly defined.  Although there are variance of opinion, most of the explanations I've seen fit the image I've attached.

White Tie/Black Tie = Ceremonial Dress/Mess Dress (No 1 and No 2 orders of dress in the CAF Dress Manual)
Semi Formal/Business Formal = Service Dress with jacket tie (No 3 and 3a in the manual)
Business Casual = Service Dress with no tie/sweater (No 3b, c, and d in the manual)

Also note that Business Casual does not include jeans (as alluded to by OGBD).  Casual may include clean jeans with a collared shirt; it still looks clean, and one still should follow the standard rules of dress - belt matches shoes, socks match pants, etc, etc.  Relaxed (called "sloppy" or "ultra casual") is whatever you want - it also is probably what 90% of us where 90% of the time - I'm a shorts, sandals and t-shirt kind of guy.

Note all these rules apply to women as well, as well as additional rules for the wear of dresses.  So when everyone gets told the dress is business casual for an event, women should not show up in yoga pants (saw it happen).

Something like this should be promulgated in every workplace, so that the standard is plain and clear to everyone.  I've seen a lot of confusion arise when a CO (or some other leader) makes a few offhand comments about "come dressed appropriately" but doesn't set the standard on what appropriate is.  Any good event invitation tells you what the dress standard is so you aren't embarrassed by showing up over-dressed or under-dressed.

So, there are three issues at play with regards to this story:

1.  What's the dress code?  If it's business casual, don't wear jeans.  If its casual, wear jeans but look presentable.  If it's relaxed, where whatever you want.  It ain't hard.

2.  What dress code should the school apply to its students on and off duty hours?  That's up to the school to decide and there are arguments for both sides.

3.  What should the students do when given their dress code by their superior officers?  Follow their damn orders.

The dress code has been properly defined, as the CADWINS is being rewritten the DCdts has been putting out a series of Orders which define all of these things.  The Dress Instruction was issued on 28 Sep 17 and clearly indicated that walkout dress is "Smart Casual" and further defined what that was with specific examples attached in an Annex.  Cadets have known this all year and continued to ignore despite numerous discussions with Senior Cadets to get their peers to follow direction.  Two weeks ago they were told, "either you start enforcing direction or we will enforce it for you and you may not like the way we do your job."

Edit:

Correction - I had originally said 28 Sep 17 for the date the Dress Instruction was issued, I just rechecked and it was actually issued 18 Oct 17.  The point remains valid though, Cadets have known about this since just after the end of FYOP last semester.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 14:42:44 by Humphrey Bogart »

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2018, 12:34:37 »
The dress code has been properly defined, as the CADWINS is being rewritten the DCdts has been putting out a series of Orders which define all of these things.  The Dress Instruction was issued on 28 Sep 17 and clearly indicated that walkout dress is "Smart Casual" and further defined what that was with specific examples attached in an Annex.  Cadets have known this all year and continued to ignore despite numerous discussions with Senior Cadets to get their peers to follow direction.  Two weeks ago they were told, "either you start enforcing direction or we will enforce it for you and you may not like the way we do your job."

Well then, there isn't really an issue.

Next!
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2018, 13:27:42 »
Not to be over-curmudgeonly, but I'm with OGBD regarding there being some places where jeans don't fit into 'Business Casual.'  In international Defence/Aerospace, business casual is 'business suit with no tie' (and you keep your tie nearby).

HB, thank you for the background on where things are at these days at the College.  I suspected there was more to the issue.  Yes, "The Devil's ClothTM" has long posed pressure points within a number of CAF organizations. I have little sympathy for folks who think that enough mass makes breaking the rules okay.  Is the rule cruel, unconstitutional, against the NDA, etc.?  No.  It is what it is.  On annual leave away from the applicability of CADWINS, sure, fill your boots.  Or.....prepare for a long limb, maybe the cadets could develop a case for College leadership accepting jeans, when tied to some other factors/conditions, like with a nice blazer and dress shirt, etc.  (that actually makes jeans much nicer dress than stinky but always acceptable, week-old unwashed CADPAT....)

Regards
G2G

p.s.  SF2:  :warstory:  Did you ever enjoy the privilege of being even a 4th Year and having to wear 4's during the duty day when going downtown?

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2018, 14:51:23 »
We had the same ***** late '60s, early '70s about jeans in the Mess. Jeans were ok in the Snake Pit but not in the lounge. It took years, and many cutouts of the Sears catalogue, but it was fought properly. Eventually with the move to more younger Commanders and supervisors taking over, it slowly changed to fit a more modern dress standard.

Are there ways to speed it up? I suppose if you wanted to go whole hog and waste your time on something as unimportant as what type of pants to wear downtown to impress the ladies you could force the issue.

Having said that, I might have doubts about someone that spends their time like that as opposed to learning how to be a leader. Challenging authority, through the media, is a mugs game. The ringleaders WILL be found out. It's human nature and someone that finally has his balls drop and takes his oath seriously will report them. I have no idea how RMC would handle it, but I know if one of our troops went to the press like this, we'd be pumping air to them while they marched up and down the parade square in full FFE.

As I age, I find it more comfortable to wear slacks or chinos or work pants anyway. I have one pair of jeans.

However, this is NOT about wearing jeans downtown. It is NOT about what constitutes 'business casual'. It's about the making of an officer suitable to lead. It is about trust, taking responsibility (own up to being the media snitch), honour, integrity and following orders. There's more, but they're the main. Things that are incumbent on all service personnel. How do you possibly even consider leading troops if you fail at a single item in that list? In the end, I can only hope they are rehabed or booted. If they slide, it'll be to the detriment of their future subordinates and very possibly, their bosses also.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 14:53:56 by recceguy »
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Group vs individual discipline/punishment
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2018, 14:52:18 »
So punishing all for some individuals digressions is acceptable?
Not a trait I believe should be instilled in or applied to our future leaders.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 19:54:39 by BeyondTheNow »

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2018, 15:00:45 »
So punishing all for some individuals digressions is acceptable?
Not a trait I believe should be instilled in or applied to our future leaders.

It's not right, but nobody can argue the effectiveness of your pissed off peers to sort you out and make you part of the team, or get rid of you. This method comes with pitfalls that need to be managed carefully, but it works. Kinda like Buckley's Cough Syrup.  :whistle:
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2018, 15:16:39 »
So punishing all for some digressions is acceptable?
Not a trait I believe should be instilled in or applied to our future leaders.

Read my post above, the reason the loss of privileges is collective as opposed to individual is because the problem of not holding others accountable for their actions (aka subordinates) has become systemic at the College.  A significant issue for many Cadets that the SSAV identified was a lack of enforcement of standards and the perception that there was two tiers of graduates:  those who could achieve the standards and those who couldn't but would still move on without any impact.  Don't complain about others and then when given the opportunity to do soemthing about it, do absolutely nothing.  Those days are over, the Four Pillars Program is the standard and Cadets are expected to meet it by the time they are ready to graduate.

The Mission of RMC is to "produce officers with the mental, physical and linguistic capabilities and the ethical foundation required to lead with distinction in the Canadian Armed Forces".  The SSAV identified that this wasn't necessarily happening, we are correcting it and we have full support from the very top to get it done.


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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2018, 15:17:07 »
I understand that we are supposed to report anyone who violates regulations etc but has anyone ever considered what happens to the person who "rats out" his co-workers, it's not always good for them and I don't just mean in a violent way.  I've even heard supervisors comment that rats have no place in the military and they have no respect for them.  There has to be another way.

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2018, 15:17:17 »
It's not right, but nobody can argue the effectiveness of your pissed off peers to sort you out and make you part of the team, or get rid of you. This method comes with pitfalls that need to be managed carefully, but it works. Kinda like Buckley's Cough Syrup.  :whistle:
Sort of like when an officer believes that group punishment is the way to go in an operational unit. Officer orders such an order pissing everyone off.
Later on the officer gives an order that's not sound. As long as no troops are endangered the senior NCO's ensure it's followed to a "T" instead of taking the officer aside and giving him some sound advice. Seen it happen.
Not an example that should be installed in young officers minds as an effective method.
It's been said "train like you fight".

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2018, 15:20:51 »
Not to be over-curmudgeonly, but I'm with OGBD regarding there being some places where jeans don't fit into 'Business Casual.'  In international Defence/Aerospace, business casual is 'business suit with no tie' (and you keep your tie nearby).

HB, thank you for the background on where things are at these days at the College.  I suspected there was more to the issue.  Yes, "The Devil's ClothTM" has long posed pressure points within a number of CAF organizations. I have little sympathy for folks who think that enough mass makes breaking the rules okay.  Is the rule cruel, unconstitutional, against the NDA, etc.?  No.  It is what it is.  On annual leave away from the applicability of CADWINS, sure, fill your boots.  Or.....prepare for a long limb, maybe the cadets could develop a case for College leadership accepting jeans, when tied to some other factors/conditions, like with a nice blazer and dress shirt, etc.  (that actually makes jeans much nicer dress than stinky but always acceptable, week-old unwashed CADPAT....)

Regards
G2G

p.s.  SF2:  :warstory:  Did you ever enjoy the privilege of being even a 4th Year and having to wear 4's during the duty day when going downtown?

Ahhh...the good old days. Wearing 4s to the Old Forge in Victoria on a Saturday night. Sure good for honing a Combat instinct. Surprisingly, we generally got left alone. I think even the bullies felt sorry for us!

Hey G2G- it is not like these RMC guys are pushing to wear leather jackets  ;)

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2018, 15:24:00 »
I understand that we are supposed to report anyone who violates regulations etc but has anyone ever considered what happens to the person who "rats out" his co-workers, it's not always good for them and I don't just mean in a violent way.  I've even heard supervisors comment that rats have no place in the military and they have no respect for them.  There has to be another way.
To me it depends on the seriousness of the violation.
Cadet X is seen uptown in jeans is not an situation which needs reporting In my opinion.
Cadet Y is seen stealing from other cadets is one, due to the fact if you were to straighten them out properly it could result in charges against you.

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2018, 15:26:30 »
Holy crap- am I actually witnessing a Royal counselling the passing of a fault?

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2018, 15:27:58 »
I understand that we are supposed to report anyone who violates regulations etc but has anyone ever considered what happens to the person who "rats out" his co-workers, it's not always good for them and I don't just mean in a violent way.  I've even heard supervisors comment that rats have no place in the military and they have no respect for them.  There has to be another way.

Guess what: you are an Officer, that's why you get paid the money you do and have a Commission.  To be the person that can stand up and make the unpopular call, right isn't always popular.

You will eventually have to do it in your career, been there before and the last time I did it, it cost me a posting and a job I'd been working towards for over a year and a half.  I was not popular but it was still the right call and I'm happy I did it.

To me it depends on the seriousness of the violation.
Cadet X is seen uptown in jeans is not an situation which needs reporting In my opinion.
Cadet Y is seen stealing from other cadets is one, due to the fact if you were to straighten them out properly it could result in charges against you.

X Royal, I understand where you are coming from but I think where you are getting stuck at is you're focusing solely on the "jeans" aspect of this.  This isn't the real issue, trust me when I say this.   
 

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2018, 15:29:51 »
Holy crap- am I actually witnessing a Royal counselling the passing of a fault?
Sometimes knowing which fight is worth the trouble and which one is due to pure BS is the difference.

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2018, 15:34:04 »
Sometimes knowing which fight is worth the trouble and which one is due to pure BS is the difference.

On that point, you and I are in heated agreement!

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2018, 15:51:40 »
X Royal, I understand where you are coming from but I think where you are getting stuck at is you're focusing solely on the "jeans" aspect of this.  This isn't the real issue, trust me when I say this.   
Are you trying to say it's about an officers integrity and obedience to orders?
Sorry I have seen too many failures on that case.
In this example officers both officers and non commissioned both have their faults.

Offline MCG

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2018, 16:00:28 »
Punishment: the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.  That really sounds like a punishment especially that Col Ayotte initially referred to the consequence as "confined to barracks" which is a punishment under the NDA. 
You calling it a “penalty” does not make it that any more than sloppily using the phrase “confined to barracks” make something the NDA punishment by the same name.

If you are not doing your job properly and so you get retrained, that is neither punishment nor penalty.

The term “confinement to barracks” has been used by several CAF schools to describe a period of intense military indoctrination where candidates are not worked from the time they wake until time for sleep, with maybe an hour or two for personnel administration, and no authority to leave base.  It was training and everyone would go through it as a matter of routine for DP 1 training.  Well, a few years back the Engineer
School caught some unpleasant attention because somebody felt they were entitled to do what they wanted wherever they wanted to do it after 1600, and a barrack room lawyer uncle went straight to NDHQ demanding to know why “confinement to barracks” was being extrajudicially imposed on the poor nephew and coursemates.  Well, a great big investigation later and the school’s process was acknowledged as necessary but it has forever since been called “restricted to base”.

So without fixating on a term that was used out of place, and considering recent information provided to this thread about the student population not having adapted to military cultural requirements for discipline, are you sure that you’ve given your final answer in this point of consideration:

Is it collective punishment or collective training?  It is not just a semantics question.  If there is a cultural problem across the student population, the institution needs to inculcate a correction - that takes collective training.  Given the academic schedule, where do you fit that outside of evenings or weekends?

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2018, 16:01:11 »
Are you trying to say it's about an officers integrity and obedience to orders?
Sorry I have seen too many failures on that case.
In this example officers both officers and non commissioned both have their faults.

I believe this is what RMC is attempting to fix.

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2018, 16:06:09 »
I believe this is what RMC is attempting to fix.
It hasn't worked yet.
To me you either have the values or you don't.
You can't train them in. Yes they can hide for a while but personal values eventually come out.

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2018, 16:13:08 »
Except we don't want blind obedience to orders.  When a a major in the Airborne issues an order that's a war crime (as he did), platoon commanders must be able to stand up and challenge it.  That is (in no small part) the driving force behind the degreed officer crops (recommendation #10 from the Report to the Prime Minister on the Leadership and Management of the Canadian Forces from 1997) - we want officers not who blindly obey, but who have the intellectual, moral and ethical wherewithal to understand what they do, why the do it, and prevent moral and legal failings of the institution.

Chickenshit group punishment for dress code violations would not appear to be a tool to develop such officers.
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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2018, 16:24:18 »
Are you conflating a disagreeable dress standard with a manifestly unlawful order?

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2018, 16:29:47 »
At this point I'm starting to wonder if the ones continuing to focus on the jeans issue even bothered to read HB's explanation of what the viewpoint on what is going on from the staff side of the house.   ???