Author Topic: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling  (Read 12933 times)

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Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2020, 14:07:03 »
Everyone is given a chance to bargain....some chose to and some dont

I hear your opinion Bruce but I have to disagree. Not true for black people who are murdered on the streets of America and not true for Canada's First Nations people who were dealt with unfairly. And I must add, Canada's problem is less severe than America's problem.

Both of course in my opinion.

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Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2020, 14:12:55 »
But the difference in police contact (frequency, intensity) may be due to race bias. 

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

Can I assume that the 'abstract' you posted was to demonstrate that you are in agreement with my opinion re. the historical bad treatment of black people in America?

That is a sincere and honest question blackadder. See G2G's comment that followed.
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Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2020, 14:22:38 »
This is a good point, DonaldH, but then the follow-up needs to be addressed as well, ie.  'so what do we (society) do about it, to resolve the issue?'

Regards

Yes of course G2G. It can't be left hanging, and so:

The exact opposite of the correct approach is Trump's approach, which I see as fascism under the cover of appealing to the American people that are suffering due to huge income inequality. But let's not go there and instead focus on the positive.

America must come to accept the black population as equals in every way. Affirmative action has been tried and may have helped in some instances. Perhaps a new and more focused emphasis on affirmative action to rectify the income inequality between blacks and whites.

You ask an enormously big question and it's not one I can answer fully in the limited time I have available. Considering that I've been rightfully accused of ignoring some people's comments. I'm going to attempt to fix that.
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2020, 15:12:54 »
Can I assume that the 'abstract' you posted was to demonstrate that you are in agreement with my opinion re. the historical bad treatment of black people in America?

That is a sincere and honest question blackadder. See G2G's comment that followed.

Why?  Are you feeling lonely?  Do you need a hug?  Well, call your mommy.  I don't do validation.  Quite frankly, since you initiated this, I don't follow your posts and barely read them, partly due to disinterest and partly due to the often poor quality of your arguments.  Half a century ago, when I was in the debate club (not for the nerd points, but for the sake of spirited argument), the best advice I received was "don't present opinions, present evidence and when your opponent gives his opinion, pounce on him and tear him to shreds with facts - make the little ******* cry".  We took debate seriously.

The only thing that you can assume is that, for some reason, I took exception to the comment in the post I quoted and referred to one particular study as a means to suggest that there were other elements to the question.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2020, 18:57:32 »
I hear your opinion Bruce but I have to disagree.

The degree of bargaining a subject can expect with the police is most often dependent on the nature of the interaction (proactive, reactive, cordial or confrontational) subject's behaviour and the seriousness of their offence.

Not true for black people who are murdered on the streets of America...

Your frequent inferences that every Black person who dies in an officer involved shooting has been murdered is becoming tiresome.

Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2020, 19:47:06 »
The degree of bargaining a subject can expect with the police is most often dependent on the nature of the interaction (proactive, reactive, cordial or confrontational) subject's behaviour and the seriousness of their offence.

Your frequent inferences that every Black person who dies in an officer involved shooting has been murdered is becoming tiresome.

Chicago - Year to date

2882 people shot
2391 of the people shot wounded
491 of the people shot killed

13 of the people shot shot by police
8 of the people shot by police wounded
5 of the people shot by police killed

10 of the people shot were police officers

https://heyjackass.com/

And for the record - 45 people killed by means other than firearms.


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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2020, 20:38:50 »
The lawyer's claim that the technique is shown in their training is some kind of silver bullet is just hilarious stupid. Shooting someone is also part of their training, I don't think that means they can go around shooting people with impunity.

I've never seen the problem with this "knee on the neck" technique and it'll be a god damn shame if yet another non-lethal technique is taken away from the officers due to the politicization of this.

Where I had a problem was when Chauvin clearly went well-beyond it's intended use given that his handcuffed suspect was unconscious, and it seemed to be purely out of malice and being high on authority.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vksEJR9EPQ8&bpctr=1599440319

Interesting footage. It shows Floyd may have been in medical distress very early on (which may actually impact "reasonable doubt"), it also shows that Floyd was fairly compliant, but did resist getting into the car (allegedly due to claustraphobia) and was complaining about not being able to breathe early on, before Chauvin was even on the scene.

Perhaps what's most damning is that they actually got him into the back of the car, with cuffs on, and Chauvin pulled him out through the other side..... pretty ******* hard to make a case that you needed to use that technique when you personally pulled him out of the car instead of shutting the door.

EDIT: Also, that he was in medical distress early on, if it (or any other reason) ends up getting Chauvin acquitted... the campaign of riots afterward will be something to watch.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 20:41:28 by ballz »
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Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2020, 22:00:58 »
Why?  Are you feeling lonely?  Do you need a hug?  Well, call your mommy.  I don't do validation.  Quite frankly, since you initiated this, I don't follow your posts and barely read them, partly due to disinterest and partly due to the often poor quality of your arguments.  Half a century ago, when I was in the debate club (not for the nerd points, but for the sake of spirited argument), the best advice I received was "don't present opinions, present evidence and when your opponent gives his opinion, pounce on him and tear him to shreds with facts - make the little ******* cry".  We took debate seriously.

The only thing that you can assume is that, for some reason, I took exception to the comment in the post I quoted and referred to one particular study as a means to suggest that there were other elements to the question.

I have a lot of trouble believing you every debated. Your fuse is too short for that.

Presenting an opinion is a proper debating technique in this modern world and especially on an internet debate forum. Any idiot can supply proof with a dozen links and then go and find another dozen that refutes the first dozen.

Likewise, I'll be ignoring you most of the time. Your problem is that you have a different opinion than mine on many issues and you are unable to accept differing opinions.

Work up a case to have me eliminated from the forum or sue me. I'm not going to be intimidated into agreeing with you.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2020, 23:21:23 »
The lawyer's claim that the technique is shown in their training is some kind of silver bullet is just hilarious stupid. Shooting someone is also part of their training, I don't think that means they can go around shooting people with impunity.

My agency teaches a lot of techniques with the expectation that we will execute them as correctly as the situation allows and in accordance with our training.

I've never seen the problem with this "knee on the neck" technique and it'll be a god damn shame if yet another non-lethal technique is taken away from the officers due to the politicization of this.
There is no such thing as a "non-lethal" technique except for, maybe, verbal judo (aka Officer Communication).  Any use of force has the potential to cause death through unintentional consequences.  You OC a subject and they go into respiratory distress and die.  You strike a subject with a baton and that causes internal bleeding which kills them.  You TASER a subject and they fall over and fracture their skull.

Where I had a problem was when Chauvin clearly went well-beyond it's intended use given that his handcuffed suspect was unconscious, and it seemed to be purely out of malice and being high on authority.
  As I stated several posts ago, near the beginning of this thread, the defense will have to prove that the technique was applied as correctly as the situation allowed, for the appropriate amount of time to gain and maintain control of Mr. Floyd.  That, IMO, will be a big order to fill.
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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2020, 00:06:25 »
There is no such thing as a "non-lethal" technique except for, maybe, verbal judo (aka Officer Communication).  Any use of force has the potential to cause death through unintentional consequences.

Kinda picking pepper from fly crap here aren't we? Maybe I miss the point on why this nuance is even worth debating. You can yell at someone in the right away and give them a heart attack. On a use-of-force continuum, there are certain things that are explicitly considered "lethal/deadly force," so that would imply it's appropriate to call everything else non-lethal.

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2020, 00:12:12 »
As I stated several posts ago, near the beginning of this thread, the defense will have to prove that the technique was applied as correctly as the situation allowed, for the appropriate amount of time to gain and maintain control of Mr. Floyd.  That, IMO, will be a big order to fill.

The defense doesn't have to prove anything. If a guy is having a heart attack before you've even arrived on scene, and eventually dies of a heart attack (which I believe Floyd did), there's zero chance you're getting a murder conviction. The prosecution has to prove that Chauvin's knee was what caused his death before we can even get into whether his knee was applied correctly for the situation. If I were a lawyer I'd be more interested in that, it's not dissimilar to Rob Semrau where the alleged victim was so close to dead that the defence literally didn't even make a case.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2020, 00:21:17 by ballz »
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2020, 00:20:54 »
Kinda picking pepper from fly crap here aren't we? Maybe I miss the point on why this nuance is even worth debating. You can yell at someone in the right away and give them a heart attack. On a use-of-force continuum, there are certain things that are explicitly considered "lethal/deadly force," so that would imply it's appropriate to call everything else non-lethal.

"Less"-lethal  implies that although the intervention option is not intended to cause death, that is a possible outcome in a very limited set of circumstances. (i.e the perfect storm)

[/quote]
If a guy is having a heart attack before you've even arrived on scene, and eventually dies of a heart attack (which I believe Floyd did), there's zero chance you're getting a murder conviction. If I were a lawyer I'd be more interested in that, it's not dissimilar to Rob Semrau where the alleged victim was so close to dead that they couldn't pin it on Semrau.

The difference here is that Semrau intentionally hastened that death.
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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2020, 00:23:47 »
The difference here is that Semrau intentionally hastened that death.

I'm not sure what your argument here is.

Semrau was found not guilty, because they couldn't prove that the dude wasn't already dead.

In Chauvin's case, the prosecution is going to have to prove that Chauvin's knee was what caused his death before we can even get into whether his knee was applied correctly for the situation. Hard to prove it was Chauvin's knee if the guy was in the midst of a heart attack before Chauvin even got there, and eventually died of a heart attack.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2020, 00:47:55 »

Semrau was found not guilty, because they couldn't prove that the dude wasn't already dead.
Notwithstanding, Semrau believed the insurgent was still alive and intentionally acted to hasten his death. Why shoot a desd body? To make it more dead?

Quote from: ballzlink=topic=132937.msg1627326#msg1627326 date=1599452627
In Chauvin's case, the prosecution is going to have to prove that Chauvin's knee was what caused his death before we can even get into whether his knee was applied correctly for the situation. Hard to prove it was Chauvin's knee if the guy was in the midst of a heart attack before Chauvin even got there, and eventually died of a heart attack.

Agreed. Chauvin is not a medical professional and would have no way of knowing, aside from Mr. Floyd's verbalizations, that he was in medical distress.  Despite that, once he became aware of Mr. Floyd's distress, was the technique still required and appropriate?  His lawyer infers it is.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2020, 12:47:25 by Haggis »
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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2020, 00:54:35 »
Notwithstanding, Semrau believed the insurgent was still alive and intentionally acted to hasten his death. Why shoot a desd body? To make it more dead?

All great questions but we're not dealing with the balance of probabilities and I'm not arguing that he didn't kill the guy. I'm arguing they couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Semrau killed the guy, because you can't kill a dead body, and the fact that the guy was already dying put enough doubt in the jury's mind because it's not unreasonable doubt that the guy was dead before the gun shot.

Similarly, if a guy is having a heart attack and dies of a heart attack, it's hard to argue that Chauvin's knee is *definitely* what caused his death which is pretty important when trying to prove murder... had he been left alone he may have died anyway.... so who can definitively conclude that Chauvin's knee did it?

Agreed. Chauvin is not a medical professional and would have no way of knowing, aside from Mr. Floyd's verbalizilations, that he was in medical distress.  Despite that, once he became aware of Mr. Floyd's distress, was the trchnique still required and appropriate?  His lawyer infers it is.

It definitely wasn't. Make no mistake, I think Chauvin is the scum of the earth and hope he goes to jail for murder. The video makes me think there is an "out" for the defence to pursue.
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Offline CloudCover

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2020, 01:56:21 »


It definitely wasn't. Make no mistake, I think Chauvin is the scum of the earth and hope he goes to jail for murder. The video makes me think there is an "out" for the defence to pursue.

He’s likely going down on Murder 3 on the grounds of deprived mind aka deprived indifference) per Minnesota 609.195(a), and his lawyer is hastening things in that direction.

Minnesota Statutes
609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.
(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.

A good US case to flesh out this line of reasoning is People v Suarez, 6 NY3d 202 (2005) and in particular these holdings of the courts:



“when the defendant intends neither to seriously injure, nor to kill, but nevertheless abandons a helpless and vulnerable victim in circumstances where the victim is highly likely to die, the defendant’s utter callousness to the victim’s moral plight –arising from a situation created by the defendant– properly establishes depraved indifference murder”(Suarez, 6 NY3d at 212)“. .... the crime is nevertheless established when a defendant– acting with a conscious objective not to kill but to harm– engages in torture or a brutal, prolonged and ultimately fatal course of conduct against a particularly vulnerable victim” (Suarez, 6 NY3d also at 212).

At a minimum this was Murder 3 but he will not receive the full 25 yrs.

You can see from the above that if Chauvin claims he did not intend to kill but nevertheless engaged in prolonged and fatal course of conduct against a vulnerable victim ( a man in his custody having a heart attack or unable to breathe) then his goose is pretty much cooked.





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Offline Haggis

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2020, 09:02:39 »
Note to Self: stop posting when you're really tired.

The defense doesn't have to prove anything.

You are absolutely right, and I know better.  What I meant (and very poorly phrased) was that the defense has asserted that the technique is an approved one and was applied correctly and Mr. Floyd's death was unrelated to that.  It's now up to the prosecution to prove that the technique was applied incorrectly in any way (method, duration) and that either caused or contributed to Mr. Floyd's death.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2020, 12:45:55 by Haggis »
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2020, 11:18:19 »

Minnesota Statutes
609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.
(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.

A good US case to flesh out this line of reasoning is People v Suarez, 6 NY3d 202 (2005) and in particular these holdings of the courts:

“when the defendant intends neither to seriously injure, nor to kill, but nevertheless abandons a helpless and vulnerable victim in circumstances where the victim is highly likely to die, the defendant’s utter callousness to the victim’s moral plight –arising from a situation created by the defendant– properly establishes depraved indifference murder”(Suarez, 6 NY3d at 212)“. .... the crime is nevertheless established when a defendant– acting with a conscious objective not to kill but to harm– engages in torture or a brutal, prolonged and ultimately fatal course of conduct against a particularly vulnerable victim” (Suarez, 6 NY3d also at 212).

At a minimum this was Murder 3 but he will not receive the full 25 yrs.

You can see from the above that if Chauvin claims he did not intend to kill but nevertheless engaged in prolonged and fatal course of conduct against a vulnerable victim ( a man in his custody having a heart attack or unable to breathe) then his goose is pretty much cooked.

I don't think its as cut and dry as you think. The training is going to become important, as is the level of fentanyl in Floyd's system. The prosecution is going to have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Chauvin did something eminently dangerous (training and use of force guidelines could tip the scales) without regard for human life as well as prove Chauvin had a depraved mind. That's a lot of subjective things to have to prove in court.

I really think the prosecutors bowed to political pressure and aimed really high with the charges, and thats going to put the jury in an uncomfortable place. 2nd Degree Manslaughter seems more likely of a conviction (Minnesota allows a jury to find guilty for lessor offenses) for Chauvin unless he's got really good defense lawyers and gets off completely.

Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2020, 12:13:05 »
A lot of good information being aired here to learn from. But maybe the most pertinent factor is being ignored on the fate of Chauvin. If I placed a bet on the outcome I would base it mostly on which candidate becomes president. The policing in America is either going to change or this BLM effort is going to be successful this time.

However, having said that, I have little confidence in Biden moving very far away from the establishment status quo. A wristslap of the order of Lieutenant Calley is my prediction. Complete with a long drawn out appeals process.  And as to his guilt? I would suggest that Ballz has it about right.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2020, 12:46:56 »
A lot of good information being aired here to learn from. But maybe the most pertinent factor is being ignored on the fate of Chauvin. If I placed a bet on the outcome I would base it mostly on which candidate becomes president. The policing in America is either going to change or this BLM effort is going to be successful this time.

However, having said that, I have little confidence in Biden moving very far away from the establishment status quo. A wristslap of the order of Lieutenant Calley is my prediction. Complete with a long drawn out appeals process.  And as to his guilt? I would suggest that Ballz has it about right.

The president who gets elected would only come into play if it got to the point of there being a pardon, or a commutation of sentence considered later down the road. The legal trial of Chauvin will proceed on the strength of the actual evidence, and under the laws of that state.  The feds really don't have anything to do with this, as no federal charges were preferred.

To defeat the charges, his defense need only introduce sufficient reasonable doubt against the allegations.

Chauvin faces three charges:
- Second Degree Murder, Unintentional, While committing a felony
- Third Degree Murder, perpetrating eminently dangerous act and evincing depraved mind
- Second degree manslaughter - Culpable negligence creating unreasonable risk

I'm not equipped to do a legal analysis of this, but my slightly-better-than-layman's knowledge lets me see tis on pretty clearly. Basically they aren't arguing that he acted with the intent of killing Floyd. They're essentially arguing that he was negligent, that he was wilfully unconcerned about Floyd's safety or life ('depraved mind'), and that Floyd died as a result of Chauvin committing a felony. Things that we would simply call 'manslaughter' - illegal act of violence results in unintentional death - they have more legally nuanced versions of. In particualrly, we have nothing akin to the 'depraved mind' statute.

Breaking all this down further, a police officer has a duty of care to anyone in their custody. A police officer has a duty to use force reasonably, and in accordance with law. Use of force has to be continuously reevaluate as the situation and subject's behaviour changes. Pretty hard to justify keeping your knee on a handcuffed suspect's neck for eight minutes plus. The county medical examiner's report ruled that police actions formed part of the cause of Floyd's death. The argument will be made that keeping his knee on Floyd's neck that long was negligent, that doing so and failing to check vitals and rendering medical aid shows the 'depraved mind' and, I'm inferring, that doing such things constitutes the felony during which unintentional second degree murder was committed.

With intent to kill removed from the equation, defense has to successfully argue that there is a reasonable doubt that Chauvin was negligent. That's going to be hard to prove.

I also wonder why they pulled him out of the back of the cruiser after they successfully got him in there. There could well be reasons for this- maybe he hadn't been searched to their satisfaction - but I've not yet seen an actual articulation of this. I haven't gone looking for it either, mind you.
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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2020, 13:19:38 »
I also wonder why they pulled him out of the back of the cruiser after they successfully got him in there. There could well be reasons for this- maybe he hadn't been searched to their satisfaction - but I've not yet seen an actual articulation of this. I haven't gone looking for it either, mind you.

Here's the raw body cam footage from Thomas Lane: https://youtu.be/NjKjaCvXdf4?t=407, I've time stamp linked it to where they started to try to get Floyd into the car. If you watch, he's never actually secured into the vehicle. He goes it head first from the driver side, with the passenger door open (I think that's Chauvin?) on the passenger side to try to drag him in. Once Lane closes the driver door, he moves over to the passenger side and Floyd is now got his legs completely outside the car on that side so he's flipped himself 180 degrees and tried to get out the other way. Once he's on the ground, he appears to kick towards an officer trying to hold his legs down. I'd argue he was never successfully in the vehicle as he resisted the whole time. Success to me is both doors closed.

Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2020, 13:43:36 »
The president who gets elected would only come into play if it got to the point of there being a pardon, or a commutation of sentence considered later down the road. The legal trial of Chauvin will proceed on the strength of the actual evidence, and under the laws of that state.  The feds really don't have anything to do with this, as no federal charges were preferred.


That completely misses my point Brihard. I'm trying to say that the entire country's future concerning reform from racism depends on which candidate is elected.

Trump, if elected will attempt to maintain the status quo and he will have the vindication he needs to do so.

Biden, if elected, shows some indications that he and the Democrats will challenge the status quo as it pertains to the police's treatment of black people on the streets.

And so I also understand:

Quote
The feds really don't have anything to do with this, as no federal charges were preferred.

I'm saying that Biden campaigns on the basis of bringing about big social change as is relevant here on this discussion. And I'm also saying that I have doubts on him being able to make any really big significant changes. But still, politics will decide the fate of Chauvin. (IN MY OPINION)

Is there any possibility that everybody who climbs on board this discussion could just voice their opinions in a polite and respectable manner?

Perhaps the admins and the mods could use this one as a trial balloon?
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
~Mark Twain.

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2020, 13:47:02 »
8 years as VP and he didn't make any change, in fact Black Lives Matters formed under his watch, so....
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Everybody has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2020, 14:19:12 »
8 years as VP and he didn't make any change, in fact Black Lives Matters formed under his watch, so....

He was only VP.
The resentment of Obama as pres had to be a motivation for the formation of BLM.
And I have to agree with you about half way because as I said, I have little confidence on America moving away from the establishment status quo.
But he 'does' at least talk a good case.

All of this still directly pertains to my suggestion that Chauvin's future depends more on who wins the presidency.
If I was allowed to award you 300 I wouldn't be making it just 150.

This is civil and decent debate in my opinion.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
~Mark Twain.

Offline Brihard

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2020, 14:24:32 »
Is there any possibility that everybody who climbs on board this discussion could just voice their opinions in a polite and respectable manner?

Perhaps the admins and the mods could use this one as a trial balloon?

Everyone has. You lack subject mater knowledge on law enforcement use of force, whereas several people here know the subject quite well. The points you're trying to make have been all over the place and difficult, at best, to follow. That doesn't mean the tone here has been at all inappropriate.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.