Author Topic: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC  (Read 6427 times)

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Offline Kilted

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2020, 23:43:09 »
Are they going to release an approved list of terms to refer to medals or do away with medals altogether?

Offline MJP

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #76 on: October 12, 2020, 23:52:08 »
Are they going to release an approved list of terms to refer to medals or do away with medals altogether?

Holy ******* red herring.....
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Offline reveng

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2020, 23:58:35 »
Are they going to release an approved list of terms to refer to medals or do away with medals altogether?

Didn't they do away with them already? I still seem to be missing one I'm entitled to, so I thought they just gave up?  ;D

Offline Kilted

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #78 on: October 13, 2020, 09:47:56 »
Didn't they do away with them already? I still seem to be missing one I'm entitled to, so I thought they just gave up?  ;D

Well maybe...

https://www.mint.ca/store/coins/2020-recognition-medal--magnet-prod3670019

Apparently this is what they decided to do with covid.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #79 on: October 13, 2020, 10:09:19 »
Are they? Or are they Officer Cadets, without a commissioning scroll?

Just saw that FJAG already posted the QR & O, Vol 1 piece.  In essence, they are both.

Quote
Save for a few UTPNCMs, they do not become commissioned officers until they march back through that arch in at the end of Year 4. We absolutely should expect more out of them, but we also need to train them at "what right looks like". The only military training they've had in Year 1 is BMOQ Mod 1. Seemingly if there's enough of a critical mass conducting themselves contrary to the values of the Institution, then there's got to be a lot of blame placed on the BMOQ Mod 1 TP and the CMC culture/supervision.

I completely agree with your piece in yellow.  That is what I've been advocating for;  educate on the standard expected, enforce the standard expected and hold those accountable who do not abide - including those who 'witness and do nothing'.  Depending on the severity of the conduct, corrective actions could be as mild as a stern talking to, as harsh as a release from the CAF...and anything in between. 

Are BMQ recruits going to get the same "forgiveness" at CFLRS for the same conduct?  I don't think so, I hope not.  The expected standard needs to be made clear and enforced from the get-go, for all.

RMC OCdts/NCdts, which the article is about, don't seem to fit the "the only military training they've had in Year 1 is BMOQ...". 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 14:04:05 by Eye In The Sky »

Offline Remius

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #80 on: October 13, 2020, 10:52:41 »


I find it odd that RMC would have to reinforce or teach what is “right”.  Most of what the report seems to indicate is not acceptable in ANY environment. 

If anything the CAF and RMC need to have a higher standard.  Kids that act this way came to RMC with some sort of warped sense of right and wrong to begin with.  It’s easy to blame RMC and some of it may be an institutional issue perpetuated by bad leadership but a lot of it rests on what society provided RMC to begin with.

Maybe we should be a bit more rigorous in our officer selection process.

We’re bringing in what society produces so I guess some de programming/programming is required. We certainly should not be enhancing their attitudes but at the end of the day the problem kids come there with a certain way they were raised.

Optio

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #81 on: October 13, 2020, 11:39:30 »
Just saw that FJAG already posted the QR & O, Vol 1 piece.  In essence, they are both.

I completely agree with your piece in yellow.  That is what I've been advocating for;  educate on the standard expected, enforce the standard expected and hold those accountable who do not abide - including those who 'witness and do nothing'.  Depending on the severity of the conduct, corrective actions could be as mild as a stern talking to, as harsh as a release from the CAF...and anything in between. 

Are BMQ recruits going to get the same "forgiveness" at CFLRS for the same conduct?  I don't think so, I hope not.  The expected standard needs to be made clear and enforced from the get-go, for all.

RMC OCdts/NCdts, which the article is about, don't seem to fit the "the only military training they've had in Year 1 is BMOQ...".  They are Officers (in training) and not a a civy U.   :2c:

As I recall, during my RESO courses, the Mil Coll chaps were VERY clear about how much of an Officer they already were, as compared to we militia riff raff :)

I find it odd that Sandhurst can train a civvy for 9 months and send them direct to the battlefield as a Pl/Tp Comd, with very successful results, while we feel it's necessary to coddle them in the nest for four years.

I guess our kids must be more 'special' in some way :)
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Offline reveng

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #82 on: October 13, 2020, 12:43:59 »
As I recall, during my RESO courses, the Mil Coll chaps were VERY clear about how much of an Officer they already were, as compared to we militia riff raff :)

I find it odd that Sandhurst can train a civvy for 9 months and send them direct to the battlefield as a Pl/Tp Comd, with very successful results, while we feel it's necessary to coddle them in the nest for four years.

I guess our kids must be more 'special' in some way :)

Didn't RMC have some policy about not walking out in jeans? I always wondered if it was a form of mental conditioning to prepare them to step off without even the most basic of equipment.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #83 on: October 13, 2020, 14:06:19 »
As I recall, during my RESO courses, the Mil Coll chaps were VERY clear about how much of an Officer they already were, as compared to we militia riff raff :)

I find it odd that Sandhurst can train a civvy for 9 months and send them direct to the battlefield as a Pl/Tp Comd, with very successful results, while we feel it's necessary to coddle them in the nest for four years.

I guess our kids must be more 'special' in some way :)

It's the "Degreed Officer Corps" requirement;  and not one I believe in, personally.  Well...that is the only difference I know at least.

There are definitely some "special" ones.   ;D

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #84 on: October 13, 2020, 14:19:30 »
It's the "Degreed Officer Corps" requirement;  and not one I believe in, personally.  Well...that is the only difference I know at least.

There are definitely some "special" ones.   ;D

I was being unnecessarily unkind, of course :)

We've explored the 'non-graduate' Officer route on here a fair bit before, I believe, and I think the current policy is definitely moving away from that option. The main issue, I think, is should we pay for a full ride in a separate, military run, educational institution that seems to have ongoing issues with the whole sexual assault thing....
"Now listen to me you benighted muckers. We're going to teach you soldiering. The world's noblest profession. When we're done with you, you'll be able to slaughter your enemies like civilized men." Daniel Dravot

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #85 on: October 13, 2020, 14:37:24 »
I was being unnecessarily unkind, of course :)

We've explored the 'non-graduate' Officer route on here a fair bit before, I believe, and I think the current policy is definitely moving away from that option. The main issue, I think, is should we pay for a full ride in a separate, military run, educational institution that seems to have ongoing issues with the whole sexual assault thing....

Would the other option be better?  All OCdts/NCdts attend a civy U and are indoctrinated into THAT culture with fewer checks/balances?

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #86 on: October 13, 2020, 14:42:19 »
Would the other option be better?  All OCdts/NCdts attend a civy U and are indoctrinated into THAT culture with fewer checks/balances?

You've got my vote! You could even make them join reserve units during the school year to increase their military skills development, in addition to summer training at Gagetown, or wherever  :nod:
"Now listen to me you benighted muckers. We're going to teach you soldiering. The world's noblest profession. When we're done with you, you'll be able to slaughter your enemies like civilized men." Daniel Dravot

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #87 on: October 14, 2020, 18:00:05 »
Would the other option be better?  All OCdts/NCdts attend a civy U and are indoctrinated into THAT culture with fewer checks/balances?

It works pretty well with all the ROTP and DEO officers that join. Also teaches you how to do things like pay your own bills, manage your own schedule, and get by in an academic setting where they don't really care if you fail hard. It's almost like real life skills, and if you crash and burn it has costs the CAF a lot less.

But you also encounter a massive range of really different people with totally different opinions and viewpoints from all over the world at a pretty important period of personal development in your life. You only learn as much as you are open to, but it can be a good way to broaden your horizons a bit.

I'm not really sure what the downside for that COA is honestly, and if you're only argument to keep RMC is 'BUT TRADITION' it's a pretty crap one. If we actually collaborated more on the R&D side it would be different, but you can do the exact same thing with any university.

Offline Scott

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2020, 08:02:58 »
I wonder what the civvy universities think?

During and post(?) covid, there are several universities that are going be be hit hard financially unless they can fill dorm space. In the buisness of higher education, the timing is right frigging now to explore this idea.

Several student body whatevers may implode, but they'll get used to it.

Loads of civvy universities in my end of the country with reserve units within a short drive. Hell, throw a weekly panel on for them.

And yes, Gagetown. Allllllll summer. Or Aldershot. They can howl like wolves when they want fun.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2020, 08:29:20 »
And yes, Gagetown. Allllllll summer. Or Aldershot. They can howl like wolves when they want fun.

You realize that the CAF is made up of more than just the Army right? You have heard of the RCAF and RCN, haven't you?
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Offline Scott

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2020, 08:31:23 »
You realize that the CAF is made up of more than just the Army right? You have heard of the RCAF and RCN, haven't you?

Sure have. Seen some RCN and RCAF types in both places I mentioned, which, I guess is why I mentioned it.

You've got my vote! You could even make them join reserve units during the school year to increase their military skills development, in addition to summer training at Gagetown, or wherever  :nod:

Guess this is what I was having some fun with.

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Offline reveng

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2020, 08:35:30 »
You realize that the CAF is made up of more than just the Army right? You have heard of the RCAF and RCN, haven't you?

Would having RegF NCdts integrated into NRDs near their respective universities be something worth pursuing?

Offline jeffb

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2020, 10:14:50 »
Would the other option be better?  All OCdts/NCdts attend a civy U and are indoctrinated into THAT culture with fewer checks/balances?

We don't send NCMs to "finishing school" and expect them to uphold high standards as well. Good luck bringing up at a summary trial that the Pte in question is only 19 and should be given a pass on this one. We should expect more from our young leaders.

The vast majority of officers are DEO, ROTP (civy U) or UTPNCM who went to Civy U. If we are relying on our post-secondary institutions to instill basic human decency values, then these are not the right people to be leaders in the CAF. 
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2020, 10:56:06 »
The vast majority of officers are DEO, ROTP (civy U) or UTPNCM who went to Civy U. If we are relying on our post-secondary institutions to instill basic human decency values, then these are not the right people to be leaders in the CAF.

Bingo.

For the RCN, having Reg F NCdts in NRDs is not a bad idea.  Not only do they get some "navy" stuff, they can also break down the "Reg vs Res F" mentality. 

RCAF is trickier since there aren't really any RCAF Res units outside of bases. 
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2020, 12:48:02 »
RCAF is trickier since there aren't really any RCAF Res units outside of bases.

They could be encouraged to join local Flying Clubs so they can, if nothing else, learn some interesting language ;)
"Now listen to me you benighted muckers. We're going to teach you soldiering. The world's noblest profession. When we're done with you, you'll be able to slaughter your enemies like civilized men." Daniel Dravot

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2020, 16:48:30 »
They could be encouraged to join local Flying Clubs so they can, if nothing else, learn some interesting language ;)

Or they could do work terms at places like the Canadian Warplane Heritage museum. May as well get acclimatized to yesterday's technology tomorrow from the outset!  ;D

Offline jeffb

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #96 on: October 15, 2020, 22:36:58 »
Having them work at an Army PRes unit may not be the worst thing anyways. I`m sure they can help relieve some of the admin burden and getting some experience with an Army unit would not be the worst thing a young, dashing RCAF officer could do.
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Offline reveng

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #97 on: October 15, 2020, 23:51:36 »
Does the RCAF have anyone dedicated to force protection these days, or is it still relying on MPs/WASF, Cbt Arms, allied security forces etc? Task some PRes Inf or MP to train for airfield defence, as well as perhaps Armd Recce (to provide mounted element/mobility tp) and have the RCAF task OCdts from nearby schools to support the effort, leadership development etc in a capacity that benefits their parent organization.

Edit: Apologies for pushing this further off topic. I will say that as someone who served for basically my entire youth (with no shortage of personal or professional failings along the way), it's pretty sad that this topic had to exist in the first place, has spanned 4 pages, and revolves around the conduct/culture of future leaders.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 08:34:30 by reveng »

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2020, 01:40:19 »
So, are we acknowledging there is a failure, at the institutional level, to train our future officers and instil our ethos?  How can you blame someone coming off the streets?

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2020, 08:59:07 »
So, are we acknowledging there is a failure, at the institutional level, to train our future officers and instil our ethos?  How can you blame someone coming off the streets?

You cannot blame someone off the street. Otherwise, what is the point of having a training system?