Author Topic: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’  (Read 12622 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Navy_Pete

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 60,340
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,190
  • Red shirted sea nerd reporting for the away team!
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2020, 19:24:53 »
Just a guess, Black Lives Matter(tm) took aim at TBL because of how similar it may be to Blue Lives Matter. And anything other than the statement *Black* lives matter is racist.

RCMP management decided pissed off paid employees are a lot easier to handle than pissed off BLM.

Thin blue line is actually just a private company making apparel and other swag, so someone is just doing this for profit.

Rather then ask why aren't they allowed to wear them, I would ask why should the RCMP or any other LE officer be allowed to wear them on their uniform?  I can also personally support the general aim of BLM and the general idea behind TBL and supporting LE, but wouldn't wear a morale patch for either because of the politics involved, and we're supposed to be apolitical. I would expect the cops to be the same in uniform.

I mean, I think generally lean more towards pagan religions, but would think twice about wearing Thor's hammer because of it's association with white supremacy. Given the overlap with the TBL and white supremacists in the US, it's hardly a neutral symbol. Also really hard to take them seriously when they start bringing in the Punisher symbol, who is antithetical to the notion of law and order and is really about an extreme reaction to the failure of the justice system. It really undermines any institutional message about reconciliation or anything else if they allow individuals to wear that with their uniform as it's impossible to de-link it from the general association it has from the original US origins and pop culture meanings (even if they aren't necessarily what it is supposed to represent).


Online Bruce Monkhouse

    is watching the snow melt...

  • Lab Experiment #13
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 306,360
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,723
  • WHERE IS MY BATON?
    • http://www.canadianbands.com./home.html
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2020, 19:29:10 »
Except TBL has been around supporting law enforcement for as long as I can remember.
Long before BLM figured out how to make money and support no one.
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

Everybody has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Offline trooper142

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 4,785
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 77
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2020, 20:18:07 »
I know full well the back blast generated by this, at least in the Federal police force, is generated by disdain for and anger at senior management. Hardly a day goes by they aren't in the news calling the membership systemically racist or sending our Force wide emails with silliness like banning the TBL flag before their political masters tell them to make it so. Only to come back and encourage pink, orange and other shirts for certain awareness days.

Meanwhile issued kit from the 25 year old jam o matic pistols they have run out of spare parts for to the cargo pants that make CADPAT pants look like skinny jeans, expired body armour that is a lower ballistic rating than issued by other agencies, massive staffing issues, especially in small Detachments, the list goes on. The new union has a massive task ahead of it calling out the nickle and dimeing of the RCMP into the Walmart of policing. Look at RCMP pay against any other major Police agency in Canada.

And the whole discussion about how the RCMP should get out of contract Policing...

I could go on but I'm on days off and don't need to think about this mess any more than I already do.

Are you sure you're not an MP? Sounds an awful lot like the problems in that organization

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 346,845
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,948
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2020, 21:49:44 »
For any of you that are unionized, does that give you any leverage to "protest" these sort of directives? Or are you just going to put them up regardless of the consequences? Not like they can fire all of you!

Perhaps they should just authorize a standardized, subdued TBL patch for wear instead of alienating everyone?

The RCMP’s new union sent out a communique today to all members to the effect that they strongly oppose this move, and that they’ve bulk ordered Velcro patches featuring a blue line superimposed on the union’s logo (a Stetson hunt on a maple leaf). It’ll be in the same black/grey subdued colours. The union’s quite new, still establishing its credibility, and is making a point about management sending out a blast like this without engaging them first. They’re letting management know they’ve picked a dumb fight on this in terms of what they’re prioritizing during very difficult times for the profession.

The union has a ton on its plate, but management has handed them a perfect, simple issue to really galvanize support with.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline reveng

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 75,520
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,792
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2020, 21:52:35 »
The RCMP’s new union sent out a communique today to all members to the effect that they strongly oppose this move, and that they’ve bulk ordered Velcro patches featuring a blue line superimposed on the union’s logo (a Stetson hunt on a maple leaf). It’ll be in the same black/grey subdued colours. The union’s quite new, still establishing its credibility, and is making a point about management sending out a blast like this without engaging them first. They’re letting management know they’ve picked a dumb fight on this in terms of what they’re prioritizing during very difficult times for the profession.

The union has a ton on its plate, but management has handed them a perfect, simple issue to really galvanize support with.

Glad to hear it.

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 576,490
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,067
  • Keep 'em rolling.
    • The job.
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2020, 10:04:03 »
The RCMP’s new union sent out a communique today to all members to the effect that they strongly oppose this move, and that they’ve bulk ordered Velcro patches featuring a blue line superimposed on the union’s logo (a Stetson hunt on a maple leaf).

That sounds reasonable ( to me ), if it is part of the official union insignia.

I'm not a labour relations expert. But, I was a member of the same union local for over 36 years. In regard to union insignia on our uniforms, the key words were "public contact". We had the right to wear union insignia (lapel buttons ), and watches from the union to long term members. They had to be "small and non-distracting". You couldn't go around in public looking like walking billboards.

In Toronto, police, fire, paramedic, and TTC vehicles are marked with exterior union insignia.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 10:12:00 by mariomike »
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline Remius

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 195,275
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,407
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2020, 10:12:48 »
I am of the opinion that Police in general are losing the PR war.  Maybe this is one of those things that they think will help.  But honestly does the average joe civy notice?  It isn’t offensive as far as I can see or even that noticeable in my mind.  Seems like such a minor thing to be going after given the current climate of COVID, Manning issues and morale issues.  Seems like a waste of effort to enforce.

Now, I can see why the Corp Sgt Major is reinforcing standards and dress regs etc.  Morale patches in the CAF is an issue as someone mentioned punisher badges and spartan helmets (not technically spartan but the association is there) etc etc.  And the RCMP is a far more regimented Force than most police forces.

Question for any regular members of the RCMP,  and I guess this could apply to any uniformed force, are those patches or pins acceptable on a full dress uniform?  I guess what I am getting at is why is acceptable on one uniform and not another?

Personally I see no issues with this patch.  But I also believe that an organisation can dictate how it wants to project its image.  Now if the organisation is out of touch with what may or may not be acceptable then I suppose that merits a conversation.

If the the TBL symbol is important then has someone used the proper channels to make that an approved part of the dress regs? 

Optio

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 576,490
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,067
  • Keep 'em rolling.
    • The job.
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2020, 10:22:35 »
But honestly does the average joe civy notice? 

Perhaps the first time some noticed was during the Charlottesville white supremacist rally in 2017, when the TBL flag was flown alongside Confederate and Nazi flags.

 
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 375,036
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,588
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2020, 10:30:52 »
What's the idea behind displaying union insignia's? Everyone belongs to the union, it seems redundant. 
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 346,845
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,948
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2020, 10:37:38 »
I am of the opinion that Police in general are losing the PR war.  Maybe this is one of those things that they think will help.  But honestly does the average joe civy notice?  It isn’t offensive as far as I can see or even that noticeable in my mind.  Seems like such a minor thing to be going after given the current climate of COVID, Manning issues and morale issues.  Seems like a waste of effort to enforce.

Now, I can see why the Corp Sgt Major is reinforcing standards and dress regs etc.  Morale patches in the CAF is an issue as someone mentioned punisher badges and spartan helmets (not technically spartan but the association is there) etc etc.  And the RCMP is a far more regimented Force than most police forces.

Question for any regular members of the RCMP,  and I guess this could apply to any uniformed force, are those patches or pins acceptable on a full dress uniform?  I guess what I am getting at is why is acceptable on one uniform and not another?

Personally I see no issues with this patch.  But I also believe that an organisation can dictate how it wants to project its image.  Now if the organisation is out of touch with what may or may not be acceptable then I suppose that merits a conversation.

If the the TBL symbol is important then has someone used the proper channels to make that an approved part of the dress regs?

No. What has happened is that management has picked a stupid little fight and have come across as attacking our solidarity as a profession on the altar of ‘wokeness’. The organization as a whole is in crisis right now. Members are dramatically underpaid, our recruiting is suffering badly, detachments are understaffed, soft vacancies are buried in staffing statistics, and the grievance, promotional, harassment, and conduct systems are broken. That’s why members finally fought a case to the Supreme Court to in the right to unionize, and why they pushed to get the numbers to actually certify.

The RCMP is now in a process of collective bargaining. The harassment process as it exists is being scrapped and rebuilt with the authority to find complaints founded or unfounded being taken away from the chain of command. Every member facing a code of conduct investigation/charge under the RCMP act is now being provided with a lawyer by the union in order to hold the disciplinary process accountable. A lot of things are slowly starting to change, and management and treasury board are on notice that some old ways of doing things are no longer going to fly.

The TBL patch issue is management picking a silly and dumb little fight. Total tone-deafness. Members have had enough. And no, this won’t extend to ‘punisher’ patches and dumb crap like that. As a union rep I’ve advised members that they should definitely take those off because we can’t do much to protect them from that.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 375,036
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,588
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2020, 10:49:37 »
Quote from: Brihard

The TBL patch issue is management picking a silly and dumb little fight. Total tone-deafness. Members have had enough. And no, this won’t extend to ‘punisher’ patches and dumb crap like that. As a union rep I’ve advised members that they should definitely take those off because we can’t do much to protect them from that.

I'm pretty tone deaf and even I can come up with a ton of reasons why police officers wearing a Punisher patch is ridiculous.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 953,065
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,800
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2020, 10:53:04 »
What's the idea behind displaying union insignia's? Everyone belongs to the union, it seems redundant.

Probably harder to tell people not to wear it since it makes the patch have a nexus to union solidarity.

Thin blue line patches have been around for decades as an apolitical show of support for LEOs. No reason a simple Canadian Flag with a thin blue line through it shouldn't be allowed on the uniform.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 329,785
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,613
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2020, 10:57:44 »
No. What has happened is that management has picked a stupid little fight and have come across as attacking our solidarity as a profession on the altar of ‘wokeness’. The organization as a whole is in crisis right now. Members are dramatically underpaid, our recruiting is suffering badly, detachments are understaffed, soft vacancies are buried in staffing statistics, and the grievance, promotional, harassment, and conduct systems are broken. That’s why members finally fought a case to the Supreme Court to in the right to unionize, and why they pushed to get the numbers to actually certify.

The RCMP is now in a process of collective bargaining. The harassment process as it exists is being scrapped and rebuilt with the authority to find complaints founded or unfounded being taken away from the chain of command. Every member facing a code of conduct investigation/charge under the RCMP act is now being provided with a lawyer by the union in order to hold the disciplinary process accountable. A lot of things are slowly starting to change, and management and treasury board are on notice that some old ways of doing things are no longer going to fly.

The TBL patch issue is management picking a silly and dumb little fight. Total tone-deafness. Members have had enough. And no, this won’t extend to ‘punisher’ patches and dumb crap like that. As a union rep I’ve advised members that they should definitely take those off because we can’t do much to protect them from that.

Well, it's probably not like it's as important as the challenging 'scramble parking' issue you must be tackling right now as a highest priority item :)

RCMP union loses 'hot button' battle over free parking spaces in Victoria and Whistler

Labour tribunal rejects union's claim that RCMP changed employee parking policy

Members at Vancouver Island's RCMP headquarters call it "scramble parking."

The region's chief superintendent told a labour tribunal that no-charge spaces in and around the Victoria HQ were at such a premium that staff would regularly scour the parking lot for spaces from the windows during the workday.

And when one came up, they pounced.

"They would leave their workstations or meetings, exit the building, and move their personal vehicles into the vacant spots," the Federal Public Sector Labour Relations and Employment Board said in one of two recent decisions devoted to the problem.

"Parking is a hot button issue. For those who must drive to work, the question of where one can park, and what one must pay to park there can be of significant importance."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/parking-rcmp-union-victoria-whistler-1.5706964
"Now listen to me you benighted muckers. We're going to teach you soldiering. The world's noblest profession. When we're done with you, you'll be able to slaughter your enemies like civilized men." Daniel Dravot

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 346,845
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,948
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2020, 10:58:40 »
I'm pretty tone deaf and even I can come up with a ton of reasons why police officers wearing a Punisher patch is ridiculous.

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. The union’s not going to bat for anything other than some variant of the TBL patch. Punisher skulls, spartan helmets, all the other dumb some people like to wear are not being defended. Management has the right to manage and dress and deportment is firmly in their wheelhouse, but they pushed this one too far, too arbitrarily, at the wrong time. They managed to make a mockery of themselves in doing so. They galvanized some real solidarity among a lot of worn out and worn down members.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 375,036
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,588
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2020, 11:02:35 »
Probably harder to tell people not to wear it since it makes the patch have a nexus to union solidarity.

Thin blue line patches have been around for decades as an apolitical show of support for LEOs. No reason a simple Canadian Flag with a thin blue line through it shouldn't be allowed on the uniform.

I should have quoted. I meant more about MM mentioning the insignia being on vehicles and stuff. Unions have that whole good and bad aspect to them. Protecting their members from getting screwed over, but they also have the image of protecting really bad members.

Union insignias kinda seems in the same vein as having a mess insignia or masons sticker. "Special club" stuff.

I'm personally not a big fan of patches and embellishments (CAF hypocrisy took care of that). Doesn't really bother me when someone else has them and I certainly support professional police officers. I don't think the Canadian flag should be modified however.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 375,036
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,588
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2020, 11:04:31 »
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. The union’s not going to bat for anything other than some variant of the TBL patch. Punisher skulls, spartan helmets, all the other dumb some people like to wear are not being defended. Management has the right to manage and dress and deportment is firmly in their wheelhouse, but they pushed this one too far, too arbitrarily, at the wrong time. They managed to make a mockery of themselves in doing so. They galvanized some real solidarity among a lot of worn out and worn down members.

Nah you were clear, I get what you're saying. I'm agreeing with the union not going to bat for that punisher spartan helmet stuff. It's surprising police officers wouldn't see the problem with wearing a punisher patch.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 346,845
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,948
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2020, 11:07:51 »
Well, it's probably not like it's as important as the challenging 'scramble parking' issue you must be tackling right now as a highest priority item :)

RCMP union loses 'hot button' battle over free parking spaces in Victoria and Whistler

Labour tribunal rejects union's claim that RCMP changed employee parking policy

Members at Vancouver Island's RCMP headquarters call it "scramble parking."

The region's chief superintendent told a labour tribunal that no-charge spaces in and around the Victoria HQ were at such a premium that staff would regularly scour the parking lot for spaces from the windows during the workday.

And when one came up, they pounced.

"They would leave their workstations or meetings, exit the building, and move their personal vehicles into the vacant spots," the Federal Public Sector Labour Relations and Employment Board said in one of two recent decisions devoted to the problem.

"Parking is a hot button issue. For those who must drive to work, the question of where one can park, and what one must pay to park there can be of significant importance."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/parking-rcmp-union-victoria-whistler-1.5706964

There were two ‘unfair labour practice’ complaints raised with the labour board over parking.

When a bargaining agent is pending certification or has served notice to bargain, conditions of employment are statutorily frozen. That means management isn’t supposed to change the terms and conditions of work outside of the bargaining process. To do so can be considered an ‘unfair labour practice’, and can be challenged before the Public Service Labour Relations and Employment Board.

The two ULPs on parking failed for different reasons. In Victoria, the ‘scramble parking’ was not a new thing, it just got a bit worse because more spots became reserved for police vehicles. It fell within what management can manage. In the case of Whistler losing free parking it was because the decision was entirely outside of the RCMP’s control. The municipality made that call.

Other ULPs have been fought and on on other matters, such as changes to NCO promotion requirements.

The union, of course, is not one guy. They can and are working on many things at once. Collective bargaining is the big one, but they’re simultaneously representing hundreds of members in various matters. As a rep I’ve been dealing with things as diverse as disability accommodations and GRTW; a whole unit facing serious harassment issues; another crew that just lost their parking (to the impact of $3k per member per year); a guy’s grievance that first lagged then got lost in the bureaucracy til I told them how to find it; a member coming back off parental leave and wanting refresher training, a guy whose acting pay was backlogged over $10k... So yeah- it’s not all about patches and parking. The matters making the news are not the most significant things going on right now to advance the interests of the members.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Remius

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 195,275
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,407
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2020, 11:12:19 »
Thanks for the answers to my questions Brihard.
Optio

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 576,490
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,067
  • Keep 'em rolling.
    • The job.
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2020, 11:14:35 »
That’s why members finally fought a case to the Supreme Court to in the right to unionize, and why they pushed to get the numbers to actually certify.

Congratulations, and long overdue, Brihard.

The Toronto Police Union was chartered in Sept. 1917 by the Trades and Labour Congress. Their first strike was on December 18, 1918, and lasted four days.

Toronto ambulance unionized on Oct. 20, 1917 and Toronto firefighters on February 28, 1918.

Today, we do not have, and do not seek, the right to strike.

Well, it's probably not like it's as important as the challenging 'scramble parking' issue you must be tackling right now as a highest priority item :)

Related,

Paid parking DND property 
https://navy.ca/forums/index.php?topic=63462.425
22 pages.

What's the idea behind displaying union insignia's? Everyone belongs to the union, it seems redundant.   

To make sure the taxpayers know, and do not forget.



In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Online Bruce Monkhouse

    is watching the snow melt...

  • Lab Experiment #13
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 306,360
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,723
  • WHERE IS MY BATON?
    • http://www.canadianbands.com./home.html
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2020, 11:16:34 »
Unions have that whole good and bad aspect to them. Protecting their members from getting screwed over, but they also have the image of protecting really bad members.

And once again I must say Unions don't protect bad members, they make sure management does due process before they start droppin' hammers.  Does management want people to do their job right?  Do your job right.
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

Everybody has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 346,845
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,948
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2020, 11:27:49 »
Unions have that whole good and bad aspect to them. Protecting their members from getting screwed over, but they also have the image of protecting really bad members.

Bruce nailed it. How many times on this site have we talked about the trials and tribulations the chain of command faces when they inherit a troop who’s been a total s***bag for years, and nobody ever documented it? The RCMP’s code of conduct process has been weaponized by management against members for decades. ‘Due process’ now finally means ‘due process’. I think it’s fair that an organization literally composed of experienced investigators should be able to handle and document disciplinary investigations and allegations in an aboveboard manner.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 576,490
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,067
  • Keep 'em rolling.
    • The job.
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2020, 11:37:26 »
How many times on this site have we talked about the trials and tribulations the chain of command faces when they inherit a troop who’s been a total s***bag for years, and nobody ever documented it?

Depends on the organization, I guess. It was almost impossible to get thrown out of ours. You really had to put your mind to it. Unless you became a public disgrace, they'd tolerate almost anything.
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 375,036
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,588
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2020, 11:39:14 »
Quote from: mariomike

To make sure the taxpayers know, and do not forget.

I don't get it. What's the connection between tax payers and police, EMS and fire fighters belonging to a union?


And once again I must say Unions don't protect bad members, they make sure management does due process before they start droppin' hammers.  Does management want people to do their job right?  Do your job right.

Right. That's what I mean by the image of it. Optics. They're championing due process, like a defense lawyer. Some really shitty people remain on the job because of technicalities or management being lazy/dumb, but the union has the optics of protecting them even if it's not accurate. So when you have a union insignia plastered on vehicles or whatever it *could* give off an impression of a special club or misplaced protection. Or maybe not

[I think when a public servant is suspended with pay for 12 years, earning over a million dollars sitting at home, it's natural to question due process but we've gone over that before
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/05/06/exclusive-toronto-officer-suspension/ ]
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 375,036
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,588
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2020, 11:52:14 »
Depends on the organization, I guess. It was almost impossible to get thrown out of ours. You really had to put your mind to it. Unless you became a public disgrace, they'd tolerate almost anything.

That's pretty scary when it's someone who is responsible for lives of others. Without getting too far off topic I know of someone who was fired from one of those life or death jobs for drinking on the job and prescription drug abuse. Looks like they're getting their job back- hopefully they don't kill anyone.



I think the RCMP getting a union is awesome and will address a lot of problem issues by giving rank and file members a voice. Ideally it will be a lot easier to punt their problem people and the good, professional members will get better taken care of (manning, kit and equipment, more competitive salary) and that will carry over into citizens being supported better.

I think citizens would be shocked to hear about some of the conditions and problems RCMP rank and file deal with.


There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Navy_Pete

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 60,340
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,190
  • Red shirted sea nerd reporting for the away team!
Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2020, 11:59:15 »
And once again I must say Unions don't protect bad members, they make sure management does due process before they start droppin' hammers.  Does management want people to do their job right?  Do your job right.

I've seen both; in one case a guy did something stupid that could have killed people and shut down the production line for a few weeks for major repairs. It was actually the second time, so the company fired him on the spot. The union went to bat for him and got him his job back, but they refused to put him back in the same spot (again, see almost killing people and costing them millions), so he worked the next few years in an office doing meaningless paper shuffle until he retired. That was the local steel workers union and was pretty much every bad union stereotype you could think of.

In other cases I've seen unions working with companies to come up with things like production targets, QC improvements etc then driving their members to meet them. The idea was if the company is more profitable and competitive they will still have jobs, and last I heard the company is doing really well and out competing others that moved operations off shore, so they even hired some more people.

Glad the RCMP finally has a union, as their management has been using/abusing people for a long time. I think the union patch is a good idea, as it clearly distinguishes from the other ones, but generally still think a TBL patch on a cop uniform is completely redundant.