Author Topic: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty  (Read 259608 times)

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Offline Scott937

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2004, 05:13:00 »
Bill,
SOVOPs in the Arctic have been conducted for years by regular force units augmented by the reserve force in some situations. Having the 2RCR augmented by the militia is not surprising but the exercise and op cannot be organized by the militia, the do not have the staff to put together a large scale exercise. SOVOPs were on a Coy level or smaller and practiced skills require to operate in extreme cold arctic conditions. It is a first, if it is a joint exercise and they are praticing war fighting skill. I think the clue that this maybe the objective, is the season that this is to be conducted - summer.

Offline Jungle

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2004, 05:47:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by Scott937:
[qb] SOVOPs were on a Coy level or smaller and practiced skills require to operate in extreme cold arctic conditions. It is a first, if it is a joint exercise and they are praticing war fighting skill. I think the clue that this maybe the objective, is the season that this is to be conducted - summer. [/qb]
The CAR conducted a number of Defence Of Canada scenarios. These ex‘s were CDO-group to Battle-group level, and practiced warfighting skills. I was in one on eastern Baffin Island (facing Greenland), at a place called Cape Dyer, in Feb 87. We jumped into a valley, then attacked and secured a radar station on a mountain top.
"I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
- John G. Diefenbaker. July 1, 1960. From the Canadian Bill of Rights.

Offline Scott937

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2004, 09:36:00 »
Jungle, I stand corrected, excellent info. That must have been a cold jump, was it the entire Battle Group...

Offline Jungle

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2004, 12:04:00 »
That particular one was a Battle-group ex. It involved 3 CDO, Recce PL and other elements of the CAR in Cape Dyer. The Airborne Armour element and other elements from the Airborne Battle-Group were deployed in Frobisher Bay (now Iqaluit) and other locations.
The jump in Cape Dyer occurred at first light, following a 6-hour flight from Trenton. The last 2 hours of that flight were dedicated to in-flight dressing, which was a nightmare... gotta love that !!!  ;)  
The temp was around -60c, but the winds were low.
"I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
- John G. Diefenbaker. July 1, 1960. From the Canadian Bill of Rights.

xenomfba

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2004, 15:17:00 »
Uh. A naval war with Denmark would be absurd. Their Navy is better equipped than ours? Where is this guy getting his facts? They have four frigates that have no torpedos, no anti-aircraft capability, no anti-ship missiles and a complement of only 60 sailors. Compare that with our 12 frigates, each equipped with 4 torpedo tubes, 16 seasparrow anti-aircraft missile tubes, 8 harpoon anti-ship missile tubes, 20mm Phalanx CIWS and a complement of 225 sailors. I‘m sure the Danish Navy‘s ability to break through ice is really impressive when we‘re raining harpoon missiles on them from 125 km away.

Uh-oh, they‘re sending their 70 F-16s after us? Good thing our 4 air-defence destroyers are there, firing missiles at the approaching aircraft while they‘re still over 150 km away. Oh no, they invaded Canada with their 51 Leopard II tanks? Good thing we mothballed all our Leopard C2s -- with no tanks to shoot at, the Danish tanks are sitting ducks for aircraft and infantry carried anti-tank systems.

We don‘t spend a lot on our military, but the Danes spend even less -- about 30% of what we spend. Your money is on them? Yeah. OK. They need it.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2004, 15:58:00 »
Ummmm xenomfba I think you also need to get your facts straight as well before you get critical:

The Royal Danish Navy has 4 SSK(1 of which is aip equipped), 7 frigates (3 of which have Harpoons and Seasparrow--4 are ice capable), 27 patrol craft of various types including 14 that can be equipped with up to 8 harpoons, 4 minewarfare units, and 9 auxillaries of various sorts. If they deployed their entire navy at us thats over 152 harpoon SSMs that could be fired at us compared to our 96. Hmmmm not good odds. Also a point for you to consider we now have 3 air defence destroyers as HMCS Huron will not be coming back in service. Also we have one CPF (HMCS Toronto) in the Gulf. On the east coast we have 2 280s, 7 Halifax class frigates and 2 unready submarines. On the west coast we have 1 280 ,5 CPFs and one submarine. The east coast AOR is in refit. Getting the picture yet?
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline Garry

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2004, 16:05:00 »
S_Baker,

Re: standing by. Yes, I believe you would. This reminds me a lot of the Falkland campaign, and the US was a very loyal ally of Britain. Tough to say, but this would be one to stay away from... for all of us!

Offline sledge

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2004, 16:47:00 »
I have bad news for ya ex dragoon. All those danish patrol boats are designed for the nice calm baltic. They are design for very short amounts of time at sea and would not survive the atlantic.

 Plus some of there ships will be in refit as will ours at any one time.

Also don‘t forget we would have freindly air cover and they wouldn‘t. Sorry the Danish fleet would sink.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2004, 16:50:00 »
They wouldn‘t even have to invade, just bloody our nose. Likely event would be the Danes claiming the Island and announcing they are sending a team to build a base there and fanfare of sending one ship on the TV. Canada responds by sending one ship up there, (if the Danes are smart they send their ice-strenghtened ships, and do this when the ice is still around) The one Canadian ship is surprised by 3-4 Danish ships who paint the Canadian ship with their radars, the Canadian captain, tries to use bluff, but quickly backs down when the Danes fire either a warning missile or a few rounds over the bow. Canada has no ability to reinforce the one ship, most of our CF-18 are being serviced or their isn‘t any air to ground missiles around and the losses by trying to use dumb bombs would be to high. the Canadian ship retreats, the Danes setup camp and await the bluster in the UN. Canada is seen as impotent and incapable of protecting the North. Soon China decides that the NW passage is critical to its economy and begins to send ships through to Europe, any attempt by Canada to stop them is countered by threats to boycott Canadian trade....rather bleak eh?

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2004, 16:52:00 »
And I have news for you sledge those Danish patrol boats have exercised with us in the middle of the North Atlantic on numerous exercises, might not be a comfortable trip but they can do it. I can‘t comment on which of their ships are in refit as I did not have their Ops Schedule available at the time I posted.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
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Offline sledge

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2004, 16:56:00 »
yes but are we talking FPB‘s or patrol ships? different animal.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2004, 17:05:00 »
Also talking ideal circumstances in deployment as well.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2004, 17:09:00 »
You would not use FPBs in the worse weather but with a tender they can be easily deployed....look at the MTBs during WW2 for an example and it would not like be the Danes would be in open they would no doubt establish a sheltered base in Greenland.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline sledge

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2004, 17:10:00 »
Oh and Colin no such thing as a warning missile. If your gonna use a finite resource you shoot to kill.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2004, 17:14:00 »
Colin the Thetis class frigates only have guns as well.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline Colin P

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2004, 17:29:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by sledge:
[qb] Oh and Colin no such thing as a warning missile. If your gonna use a finite resource you shoot to kill. [/qb]
Actually almost any semi-smart missile can launched without targeting the ship. Certainly the gunfire would do. But a missile appearing on the radar even if it‘s not aimed at you will drive the point home. If things went this far, do you think they would worry about a $200,000 missile?

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2004, 17:34:00 »
If you only have 8 you would and besides the CPF has one of the best self defence capabilities in the world.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Online Infanteer

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2004, 19:16:00 »
...and we are talking about two NATO countries going to war over an insignificant rock in the middle of butt-f***-nowhere.  (Waiting for the Falklands analogy, NATO is the kicker here)

You navy guys have an odd sense of humor.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline sledge

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2004, 20:08:00 »
um colin how do you aim a self guiding missile to miss??? Ya can‘t and as for radar guided missiles you need to be locked on to a target for them to launch.

 And yes when your stuck in a steel box for months at a time u get a odd sense of humour

Offline Scott937

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2004, 04:37:00 »
But Infanteer, didn‘t you just hear, anyone can get into NATO as long as they declared thier support for "Iraqi Freedom". It will soon be like saying "but they are both member states of the UN..."

Online Infanteer

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2004, 13:20:00 »
Good one.

I must admit I am seeing NATO become more and more obsolete every day...

"Where is the North Atlantic?"
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Colin P

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2004, 17:26:00 »
I will confess not to be an expert on missile systems, but I do remember the guys on one ships explain how they would prevent the missile from hitting the target drone, so the impression I have is that they do have a certain amount of control over them. I will ask the question on another forum that may have the answer.

 However the scenario is not that unreal or without precedent, remembers the Iceland-British Cod war? or even the Turbot war? Fisheries resources are becoming scarce and the Island represent the ability to own fishing grounds and any minerals in the surrounding areas. The only reason Canada has not had more confrontations regarding resources is due to our lack of will (political that is) and resources, the reasons exist already in plenty.

Offline sledge

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2004, 18:09:00 »
Colin I am a expert on missile systems. Its my job, so stop sending and receive. In other words stop flapping about what you don‘t know anything about and listen. Ships don‘t purposely miss the drones if locked on. They do use telemetric missiles with no warheads (they send data but don‘t go boom) skin on skin contact between drones and missiles are rare.

 But yes the scenario is quite possible. I agree esspecially for those reasons.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2004, 01:00:00 »
Thanks Sledge for the response, as I mentioned it is not my area of expertise, but I was under the belief that it was possible. Which ship do (did) serve on?

 One guys I worked with was a Blowpipe gunner and during a shoot was ordered to miss the drone, he nailed it dead on. The Officer crapped on him, but the BSM bought him beers all night.

Offline sledge

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Re: Largest Ever Arctic Exercise
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2004, 03:08:00 »
Colin, I serve on the Regina. Now a blowpipe is not a weapon I know much about, never saw one. I have seen its replacement the javelin. With which you could miss if you wanted to. But its always more fun and confidence building to hit the target.