Author Topic: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]  (Read 366915 times)

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babicma

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2003, 01:04:00 »
Sorry.. Not just in basic but OVERALL training over the YEARS???

humint

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2003, 02:18:00 »
You definitely get more hands-on as an NCM than as an Officer. However, like the mil, no police force would expect you to come into a tactical role already with bags of tac exp and weapons training. They will train you from zero, just like the mil does.  

Why the RHLI over the Argylls?

By the way, there are many police officers and emergency responders as both NCMs and Officers in the Argylls, and they can manage both. I don‘t see why you won‘t be able to.

babicma

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2003, 02:52:00 »
humint thanks alot!

To answer the question RHLI over Argylls:

1. I was first in touch with the RHLI recruiter

2. Im not really crazy about wearing a kilt, not that I have anything against it

I totally agree with you about the training the police will give, its just that I would like to get some experience with weapons and hopefully FIBUA with the reserves. Also when I come to applying to the ERU after I put my time in as a COP I would like my resume/experience to read better than somebody who has only handled the Glock and shotgun while being a COP.

Another thing I would love to talk to some guys who are on Hamilton Service (either COPS or Emergency) and are with the RHLI or the Argylls so if you can give me some advice on that I would be more than greatfull.

Thanks for the support humint, im getting more and more pros for going to the reserves before I go to OPC (thats if I get hired! hehe)

Cheers!!

  :cdn:

babicma

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2003, 03:02:00 »
Just wanna try out my new avatar!

babicma

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2003, 03:05:00 »
Hopefully works this time sorry for going off topic. Still need more advice!

Thanks to all!

humint

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2003, 05:12:00 »
True, we are Scottish. But, the whole kilt wearing thing happens so infrequently that it never really becomes an issue -- even for the non-Scots in our unit.

Drop by the ASH recruiting office on a Wed night and I‘ll intro you to a few police and emergency officers/responders in the regiment.

Hopefully, we‘ll have a Fibua site set-up in the near future (not sure if the RHLI will be allowed to us it, but we may make an exception if you ask real nice). You‘ll definitely get a lot of hands-on with mountain warefare and urban ops as our entire Brigade group has been given that task. Plus, the NBC training will also help.

Are you going through the police recruitment process right now? If so, at what stage are you and what departments?

There‘s a weekend BMQ course starting in Jan, so if you get on that, you will be able to get basic out of the way by April -- therefore cutting down on the likelihood that you will have a conflict between police/army training.

In the big picture, you CAN do both. As a police officer, you will have some conflicts because of your 12 hour rotating shifts (man, I hate those). So, you may miss the odd parade night or weekend ex, but it shouldn‘t be that bad. Like many of us, you‘ll have to use your holidays to do mil extended training. And, as a police officer, you‘ll be able to rack up a lot of overtime, which you can take as time off, this freeing up time for training/tasking, etc.

Plus, most of the training is now in weekend or module form (2 week blocks), so it‘s getting easier for us regular workin‘ folk to do the necessary training.

babicma

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2003, 07:05:00 »
Thanks humint I‘ll most likely make it to Wed night for the training night of the Argylls.

Thanks for the invite I‘d love to talk to some guys who do both police and reserves especially ERU members.

My objective is to join whichever regiment RHLI OR the Argylls, I want the one that will give me the best training and the RHLI recriuter didnt tell me anything about ERU guys with the Rileys! So, Id rather train with the Argylls if I can be around the right training and the right people! If you know what I mean!?! I only want to be with the best and try my hardest to be as good and even BETTER!

Right now I am waiting to get called for my ECI interview (second interview). It looks like no one is hiring for Jan but May and Sept look very promising, as long as I pass my ECI, LFI and psychs. My police recuiter told me that interviews for ECI will most likely start in Jan, so even if I get an offer for May I would still defer that till Sept so I could go on course this summer!

So I guess I‘ll be at the armouries on Wed night at 1900??

Who should I ask for, where should I go?

Thanks a million for helping me out and hopefully if the Argylls sell me on their training aspect compared to the RHLI. I‘ll join and don the kilt with pride! hehe

And I would really like to get some more info on trainig dates coming up during 2004, I got some dates from RHLI but it sounds just by your last post that you know a little more, which is good for me!

Thanks again!

Keep the posts coming!!!

  :cdn:

babicma

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2003, 07:31:00 »
Decision has been made:

Score is

NCO: 2

Officer: 1

Cheers everyone for helping me come to a decision!

  :cdn:

Offline xFusilier

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2003, 07:36:00 »
First of all you have to determine what you want.  The fact is that after 6 years experience in the militia I cannot draw  a collation between officers that were troop/NCO‘s and officers that were not.  I have worked for excellent officers that were recruited right of the street, and I have worked for horrible officers that were MCpl‘s and Sgt‘s.  Being an NCO does not necessarily make one a better officer.

Having spent 6 years in the Militia, and worked for the RCMP and a civillian member, I can tell you that in my own experience the single biggest thing that the Militia can offer you as a potential police recruit is the opportunity to work in a position of responsibility.  You will recieve more responsiblity in a shorter period of time as a officer.  Simple as that.  Join as a soldier (Not an NCO - you don‘t get to be an NCO until you are promoted MCpl and that will be 4 years away)the first 2-3 years of your time in will be spent as a follower.

babicma

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2003, 07:45:00 »
Sorry I screwed up!

I was thinking NCO as being a private also. I mean going through the ranks up to NCO then going officer.

I remember in the Navy the short year I spent it seemed like the officers that came off the street had no clue as to being a sailor. All their were were a bunck of paper pushing yuppies. Thats what they looked like and the NCO‘s were the real deal. The first time I noticed it was in my BRT graduation when the officers were marching and doing the drill. They had no snap and no stomp. Thats when I got the idea that "thank GOD im an OS and didnt go in as an Officer!"

Cheers!

Offline Habitant

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2003, 08:07:00 »
Ouch!

This officer-bashing has run rampant.

Does anyone have anything positive to say about us?

It‘s very easy to pick on the guy / girl in charge. It‘s very easy to say that you could do better. It‘s not as easy to actually do it.

If you think that the officer corps is in abysmal shape - become and officer and help change it! Just complaining will get us nowhere.
Lead by example.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2003, 11:03:00 »
If we‘re going to measure the effectiveness of the officers solely on their drill performance, shall we also measure the effectiveness of NCOs solely by the quality of their writing? Generalized comparisons between the officer and NCO corps are usually poorly presented, wrongly situated and, at the heart of it, incorrect in context, content and tone. We no more enrol officer candidates to become drill gods than we enrol our NCMs to become expert staff writers. And yet in some cases, we cultivate high standards of both skills in select officer and NCOs. Bashing one or the other group on the context of narrow single-skill comparisons is a waste of time.

An infantry soldier may spend more time handling and firing weapons than his platoon commander, but of the two only the platoon commander will be running those firing ranges within a few years of recruitment. Don‘t allow the idea that common basic skill sets in the basic training of each allows simplistic comparisons of their later scope of duties and responsibilities.

Mike

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2003, 16:04:00 »
I‘m trying to convey the fact that being an Officer is not always the best choice. It is good if you like being a manager and large amounts of responsibility, but if all you want to do is have some fun and get some good experience then it may not be the best choice for you.

I have talked to so many Officers who said that they wished they were NCMs so that they could get more field work, and heard a lot about people who were Officers just for the power trip.

In this case babicma is looking for some relevant experience that he could put on his application.
I beleive that my point in this context is quite valid.

Michael OLeary:

I didn‘t write that I would NOT accept a Captain. My points were that his experience as an NCM would be much better suited to his stated goal, and that rank isn‘t as much of a factor as his level of physical fitness.

humint

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2003, 18:52:00 »
You‘ll get all sorts of Officers -- good ones and bad ones, from both the street and the ranks. It all depends on the person, nothing more and nothing less. The same exists in the ranks. You get good troopers and you get crap troopers. Such is life and it will always be that way. You take the hand you‘re dealt and you do the best you can with it.

As for NCM or Officer career path -- it all depends on what you want to get out of it and its applicability to your objective (which is to become an ERT member). Both will do you well. However, you will get more time/hands-on with weapons as an NCM, which may be more important to you.

In the real world when you apply for a job, you will not be discriminated on the basis of whether you are an NCM or Officer. The fact you were in the CF is what really matters. In my civ job, I work with both former NCOs and Officers, and we all eat in the same lunch room.

Definitely come in to the Argylls on Wed night. Come by the Recruiting Office and ask for the Recruiting Officer. You‘ll get all the details you need. You can also check out the Argyll website at www.ashofc.ca.

Offline Habitant

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2003, 03:45:00 »
Humint,

How is your back?
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Offline portcullisguy

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2003, 18:40:00 »
I‘ll be honest, if I were a police service, I would hire the person I thought best suited to be a police officer, regardless of whether that person was an NCO, officer, or even in the military at all.

Keeping in mind you need at least 5 years of "primary response" policing experience before you can even qualify to apply for an Emergency Response Unit with an Ontario police service, joining the military may not necessarily help or hinder you -- you need to be a competent police officer first.

Often, there are idealogical differences between the police and the military, in the way they do things, and in SOME people, this can be a hinderance.  For others, they can extract the best from each and be better at both.

If you want to be a police officer, think first about how you are suited to that career goal, and what qualities you have that can best assist you to that end.  If you want to be a police officer who is also a reservist, take that a step further and determine how you can extract the best qualities of your reserve experience and apply them to policing.  Every person, and every situation, is different.

I am personally in a similar situation.  I got tired of waiting to get on a police service, my career of choice, so I joined the military.  My decision to join the militia was to achieve a personal goal independent of my civilian law enforcement career goal.  However, should I decide later to again apply to be a police officer, I will do my best to take the best parts of the army and put them in my civvy career.
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humint

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2003, 19:13:00 »
Hi Habitant: All is good. Long story, but the MIR in Gage did a terrible job diagnosing the problem. I‘m back at it. For my troubles, they‘ve given me a position with some responsibility at the unit. Arrgh. By the way, how are things with you?

mrhappy1985

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2004, 21:52:00 »
"...just make sure that you know the differences between NCM and officer and decide what you want"

Whats the difference between the two really? An officer leads the group, whereas a ncm takes orders?

mrhappy1985

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2004, 21:56:00 »
Sorry about this i thought i was adding to my old thread but it came up as a new post? im not very good with computers. So basically someone said the above quote, can anyone clarify the difference for me?

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2004, 22:18:00 »
It‘s one of those issues that‘s difficult to explain to someone that hasn‘t experienced it. And, unfortunately, the Hollywood stereotypres don‘t help one bit.

Consider this brief comparison (it doesn‘t cover every possibility):

You can be an 18 year old private soldier responsible for yourself and your own weapon, expected to be where you‘ve been told to be at the directed tinmings. Most activities will be surpervised by your Section Commander or 2IC and you will seldom be given tasks on your own until you have had an opportunity to prove you can be given such tasks. Your future will be many years of service in the battalion as you increase in rank and experience, but you will always be commanded by the officers of the battalion.

Or you might be a 22 year old (after 4 year university) platoon commander. You will be responsible for the training, welfare and activities of 30 (+/-) soldiers. Some of these soldiers will have infantry training and leadership experience that outweigh your own significantly, but they and you understand that the decisions in the platoon are yours and that you will be held responsible for them. Your future will be alternating tours of duty in and out of the battalion; tours away from the Regiment may be instructional, staff or other types of employment. Tours returning to the battalion will see you in increasing apppintments of responsibility and command over larger numbers of troops.

Another view from my notes:

The young officer brings to the table vigour, freshness, newness, an understanding of the latest interpretation of tactics and leadership as imposed by his/her training, and, ultimately, the vested authority and responsibility which places him/her in charge reinforced by an aggressive need to assert authority because that is what their training experience has expected of them. The Senior NCO brings years of training, experience, knowledge (especially of the unit, resources and soldiers) and, hopefully, maturity and unlimited patience with each new junior officer. The challenge for both is understanding how to balance these contributions for greater effect, the sum is much greater than the whole when both work together, and much less when they don't.

Mike

Offline Danjanou

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2004, 14:27:00 »
Quote
The young officer brings to the table vigour, freshness, newness, an understanding of the latest interpretation of tactics and leadership as imposed by his/her training, and, ultimately, the vested authority and responsibility which places him/her in charge reinforced by an aggressive need to assert authority because that is what their training experience has expected of them. The Senior NCO brings years of training, experience, knowledge (especially of the unit, resources and soldiers) and, hopefully, maturity and unlimited patience with each new junior officer. The challenge for both is understanding how to balance these contributions for greater effect, the sum is much greater than the whole when both work together, and much less when they don't.  
Mike that says it perfectly, especially that last sentence.
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Offline Gunnar

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2004, 15:10:00 »
Cross-posted (and re-posted)from the Recruiting board.  Someone complimented my on my explanation, and on further reflection, I like it too.
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As near as I can tell, being a civilian, the difference between Officer and NCM is roughly the same as being University or College educated. Nothing - bright people will always make their mark.

University teaches theory (the why), and expects you to extrapolate the practical (the how). College teaches you practical (the how) and expects you to do it well. To the extent that you can see the big picture, you will interpolate the theory (the why).

Both "classes" of jobs are necessary, and both require responsibility. The difference is what you personally get a bang out of doing, and what your own physical and mental abilities allow you to do.

Capt: We will make camp on *THIS* hill. (Oh, Sgt., what would be the best way to make camp on this hill?)

Sgt: We will *MAKE CAMP* on this hill. (Good choice on the hill Sir).

Focus is different, but both use their experience and intelligence to do their part. Captain needs to know the strategic reasons why they camp on the hill. Sgt needs to know how to make a camp, and why camps are made that way. Sgt probably knows the strategic reasons as well or better than the Captain, but he‘s not responsible for it. That‘s why the Captain asks his opinion. Captain may know how to make a camp just as well as the Sgt., but he‘s not responsible for *making* it, just in having it made. Further, a good commander will explain his reasons as far as he can or is allowed so that his NCM‘s can make informed decisions and suggestions, but he‘s not required to - the reasons why are HIS problem.

The difference in responsibility is a biggie. A dumb Sergent can get a bunch of men killed. A dumb Officer can get a LOT of men killed. A good Sergent can save some lives. A good officer can save a lot of lives.

Another two cents from a civilian.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2004, 17:47:00 »
This is kind unrelated, but no sense starting a new thread.  What is the largest group of people a NCM can command?  Does it go any higher then a section commander?

mrhappy1985

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2004, 12:43:00 »
good question scm77

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2004, 12:53:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by scm77:
[qb] This is kind unrelated, but no sense starting a new thread.  What is the largest group of people a NCM can command?  Does it go any higher then a section commander? [/qb]
An NCM can command as many people as he‘s assigned...

A section commander is usually a Master-Corpral, with a Sergeant in charge of the platoon, a lieutenant in charge of the sergeant.
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