Author Topic: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)  (Read 796634 times)

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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1925 on: March 07, 2018, 16:22:00 »
Just wondering what the appropriate protocol is for a picture of the sovereign since the ship is not an HMC ship.  Can it even fly an RCN ensign? 

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1926 on: March 07, 2018, 16:31:07 »
No. It flies the Canadian merchant ship ensign, which is the national flag.

And there is no protocol whatsoever on pictures of the Sovereign for merchant ships.


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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1927 on: March 07, 2018, 16:39:32 »
No. It flies the Canadian merchant ship ensign, which is the national flag.

And there is no protocol whatsoever on pictures of the Sovereign for merchant ships.

Actually it flies the CNAV Blue Jack, the national flag and the Federal Fleet house flag.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 16:49:31 by Chief Stoker »
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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1928 on: March 09, 2018, 01:20:41 »
Just wondering what the appropriate protocol is for a picture of the sovereign since the ship is not an HMC ship.  Can it even fly an RCN ensign?
Would be a question of House custom - IIRC BC Ferries, for one, has a picture of HM onboard their larger vessels.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1929 on: March 09, 2018, 10:27:14 »
Actually it flies the CNAV Blue Jack, the national flag and the Federal Fleet house flag.

But it's flying the auxiliary jack on the yardarm, not as a jack.

Personally, I think the CFAVs should go the same way HMC Ships did and switch their ensigns and jacks...
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 13:54:44 by Pusser »
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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1930 on: March 09, 2018, 10:43:12 »
But it's flying the auxiliary jack on the yardarm, not as a jack.

Personally, I think the CFAVs should got he same way HMC Ships did and switch their ensigns and jacks...

I don't know how they're flying that flags but I do know to use the Blue jack the RCN is amending the manual of ceremony.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1931 on: March 09, 2018, 11:07:53 »
Its a little more complicated than that, but it starts with the fact that the CFAV (CNAV? did it recently change from Canadian Forces Auxiliary Vessel to Canadian Navy Auxiliary Vessel?) Jack has no existence in our system of national ship identification. And, no it is not as simple as amending the Manual of Ceremonial, as it is directed by the Canada Shipping Act, which would have to be amended.

In Canada, we have only two possible Ensign: The Naval Ensign, i.e. the RCN's White ensign, or the Merchant ship ensign, which is the National flag. This is different than the UK or Australia, where the identification of vessels allows for three categories: Vessels of her Majesty's Armed Forces (white Ensign), other vessels of her Majesty's government, or vessels in her service, or vessels commanded by members of the Naval Reserves (Merchant ships commanded by a merchant marine officer also holding commission in the NR) fly the Blue, all other merchant ships fly the red ensign.

The reason the RCN can fly its own Ensign is because the ships of the Armed Forces are exempt from the Canada Shipping Act, section 7 (1), which reads:

Exclusion

7 (1) Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, this Act does not apply in respect of a vessel, facility or aircraft that belongs to the Canadian Forces or a foreign military force or in respect of any other vessel, facility or aircraft that is under the command, control or direction of the Canadian Forces.


A nuance here: this relates to the vessels of the Canadian Forces, not to all vessels of the Department of National Defence. The CFAV's are operated and under the Department of Defence, thus they are subject to the Canada Shipping Act. Therefore, they must fly the Canadian Flag, under Art 64 of the Act, which reads:

Right to fly Canadian flag

64 (1) A Canadian vessel has the right to fly the Canadian flag.

Obligation to fly flag

(2) The master of a Canadian vessel, other than one registered in the small vessel register, shall ensure that it flies the Canadian flag

(a) when signalled to do so by a government vessel or a vessel under the command of the Canadian Forces; or
(b) when entering or leaving, or while moored at or anchored in, a port.


So where does the "Blue" jack of the CFAV's come from? It is used as an identifier of the vessels who operate under tasking made by QHM. That's all it means, and that is why it will not be flown as an Ensign, but only as a jack, or at a yardarm. It is the same reason, for instance, that the Coast Guard has a "jack" but flies the National Flag as ensign.

In the present case, Asterix, a vessel belonging to the merchant service, is obliged to fly the Canadian National flag as her ensign. The CFAV's blue is only flown as secondary indicator that it works as tasked by QHM.

Offline Uzlu

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1932 on: March 14, 2018, 08:32:47 »
More Asterix info.  She may not be ready/able to go to RIMPAC this summer.  Lots of work to be done.
Quote
VAdm Lloyd said the new AOR will sail with Canadian Fleet Atlantic ships in the coming months, and as the summer nears it will meet up with West Coast warships for a deployment to the 2018 Rim of the Pacific Exercise off the coast of Hawaii.
http://www.lookoutnewspaper.com/naval-history-made-mv-asterix-added-fleet/

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1933 on: March 14, 2018, 11:14:09 »
I was onboard on Monday.

Had a tour delivered by their XO to a group of us from BLog and N4Log. 

They're sailing.  They're going west.  That was the distinct 'impression' I was left with during the tour.

There is work ongoing onboard, but for the nay-sayers, I will observe, this ship sailed from Davie in Quebec in December, and has sailed since then several times.

We got a frigate back from ISI not that long ago, and not a single RCN ship that has come out of the ISI yard hands has been in 'ready to sail' condition.

The amount of work required to get a ship 'ready' after a 'refit' at ISI is tens of thousands of hours of work.
Insert disclaimer statement here....

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1934 on: March 14, 2018, 12:15:40 »
I was onboard on Monday.

Had a tour delivered by their XO to a group of us from BLog and N4Log. 

They're sailing.  They're going west.  That was the distinct 'impression' I was left with during the tour.

There is work ongoing onboard, but for the nay-sayers, I will observe, this ship sailed from Davie in Quebec in December, and has sailed since then several times.

We got a frigate back from ISI not that long ago, and not a single RCN ship that has come out of the ISI yard hands has been in 'ready to sail' condition.

The amount of work required to get a ship 'ready' after a 'refit' at ISI is tens of thousands of hours of work.

Which is my point.  Tens of thousands of hours of work.  Difference here is that the Asterix can sail, but can't do the job she's required to do.  Their last sail proved that she can't RAS worth a damn right now for various reasons.  Some of that may be teething, some of that is surely that she was rushed to meet a deadline for political points.  Thousands of hours of work are still required to get her ready for RIMPAC.  I expect she will be "ready enough" to go West if you catch my drift.  But as she is owned by FFS who has the final say on availability? If she was owned by the RCN we might be inclined to say, don't sail until we're happy you are fully operational.  FFS might say sail whether she is fully operational or not.

This is not to say they can't do good work and sort out the readiness issues.  There is certainly a lot of effort going into fixing all the identified problems judging by the lineup of contractors going on and off regularly.  80% capability from Asterix is still infinitely better then 0% capability from JSS currently.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1935 on: March 14, 2018, 12:58:57 »
Which is my point.  Tens of thousands of hours of work.  Difference here is that the Asterix can sail, but can't do the job she's required to do.  Their last sail proved that she can't RAS worth a damn right now for various reasons.  Some of that may be teething, some of that is surely that she was rushed to meet a deadline for political points.  Thousands of hours of work are still required to get her ready for RIMPAC.  I expect she will be "ready enough" to go West if you catch my drift.  But as she is owned by FFS who has the final say on availability? If she was owned by the RCN we might be inclined to say, don't sail until we're happy you are fully operational.  FFS might say sail whether she is fully operational or not.

This is not to say they can't do good work and sort out the readiness issues.  There is certainly a lot of effort going into fixing all the identified problems judging by the lineup of contractors going on and off regularly.  80% capability from Asterix is still infinitely better then 0% capability from JSS currently.

Yes quite a bit of work to be done as evidence of the state of the ship, right now she's only certified for Cyclones.
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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1936 on: March 14, 2018, 13:54:25 »
Yes quite a bit of work to be done as evidence of the state of the ship, right now she's only certified for Cyclones.

No, she is not certified for Cyclone. Or any particular helicopter. She has a general clearance to operate with military helicopters in fairly benign conditions.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 13:59:20 by SeaKingTacco »

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1937 on: March 14, 2018, 14:02:55 »
No, she is not certified for Cyclone.

Well you would know wouldn't you, whats in the media have led many to think otherwise.  I know there's still equipment to be installed.

It seems like Federal Fleet and Davie are saying all is good on that front.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/asterix-completes-royal-canadian-navy-trials-achieves-full-operational-capability-foc-671666423.html

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Offline Baz

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1938 on: March 14, 2018, 15:00:34 »
Well you would know wouldn't you, whats in the media have led many to think otherwise.  I know there's still equipment to be installed.

It seems like Federal Fleet and Davie are saying all is good on that front.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/asterix-completes-royal-canadian-navy-trials-achieves-full-operational-capability-foc-671666423.html

Looking in from the outside, as I have *no* first hand information of the extent or how successful the Asterix trials were, my *observation* is that there may not be a formal agreement as to what Full Operational Capability means in the context of the announcement made in the quoted article.

Understanding what flight deck trials, shipborne helicopter operational limitations, and flight deck certifications actually mean and having been informally told what was actually conducted, and then extrapolating that to
No, she is not certified for Cyclone. Or any particular helicopter. She has a general clearance to operate with military helicopters in fairly benign conditions.
I would tend to believe it is not the same definition that would be used by the RCN and RCAF when it comes to Air Ops.

Then seeing as the quoted article states
Quote
These exercises have included everything from dual RAS operations to helicopter landing, take-off and vertical replenishment trials
I would tend to make the deduction that this definition of FOC is inclusive for much of the capabilities right now; ie the contractor has declared that it is FOC "for what they are responsible for" but the Operational customer (the RCN) has not made such an announcement.

This is in no way a bad thing per se; it just means (to me) that due diligence on the part of the RCN and RCAF is still going on, regardless of how the contractor views it.  The ship may in fact be very capable in the fullness of time but the contractor may not be using certain terms the way the customer would in order to make it look like a more spectacular result.

As I said, just looking in from the outside...

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1939 on: March 14, 2018, 15:07:28 »
Looking in from the outside, as I have *no* first hand information of the extent or how successful the Asterix trials were, my *observation* is that there may not be a formal agreement as to what Full Operational Capability means in the context of the announcement made in the quoted article.

Understanding what flight deck trials, shipborne helicopter operational limitations, and flight deck certifications actually mean and having been informally told what was actually conducted, and then extrapolating that toI would tend to believe it is not the same definition that would be used by the RCN and RCAF when it comes to Air Ops.

Then seeing as the quoted article states  I would tend to make the deduction that this definition of FOC is inclusive for much of the capabilities right now; ie the contractor has declared that it is FOC "for what they are responsible for" but the Operational customer (the RCN) has not made such an announcement.

This is in no way a bad thing per se; it just means (to me) that due diligence on the part of the RCN and RCAF is still going on, regardless of how the contractor views it.  The ship may in fact be very capable in the fullness of time but the contractor may not be using certain terms the way the customer would in order to make it look like a more spectacular result.

As I said, just looking in from the outside...

If you look at most of the info that comes out about Asterix its sources from Federal Fleet and Davie. Some is true and some has an element of truth about it and some is totally out to lunch.
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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1940 on: April 05, 2018, 14:43:52 »
A nice video of Asterix conducting a RAS with Toronto.

https://youtu.be/VcalhkPw1s0

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1941 on: April 05, 2018, 15:12:29 »
Nice, Jjt.

Two small comments:

(1) A GoPro camera on the probe: That's cool!

(2) The video, which has nothing but music, except a few words of credits at the end in writing (not spoken), feels the need to specify in the title that it is the English version of he video.  ;D Only in the CAF!

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1942 on: April 05, 2018, 15:53:03 »
Good catch on the versions. Reminds me of "the Aquarium channel" on our satellite tv.  There is an English and French version.  Same music and fish for both too.   :nod:

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1943 on: April 06, 2018, 11:12:16 »
Good catch on the versions. Reminds me of "the Aquarium channel" on our satellite tv.  There is an English and French version.  Same music and fish for both too.   :nod:

Can we assume the fish are bilingual?  A number of recent docu-drama productions on Canadian History have used bilingual actors so the same people can give the same dialogue in both languages.
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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1944 on: April 06, 2018, 11:15:51 »
Can we assume the fish are bilingual?  A number of recent docu-drama productions on Canadian History have used bilingual actors so the same people can give the same dialogue in both languages.

They must be.  After all, they spend years in schools.   :D

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1945 on: April 06, 2018, 11:23:34 »
 :rofl:
They must be.  After all, they spend years in schools.   :D

 :rofl:  You out-clevered me.   :salute:
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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1946 on: April 09, 2018, 13:40:09 »
Stats on the UK's newest support tanker.

https://sldinfo.com/2018/03/royal-navy-adds-new-support-tanker/

Royal Navy Adds New Support Tanker
03/30/2018
It is good to add new warships but the logistics support aspect is a foundational aspect of at sea operations.

And the Royal Navy is adding four new support tankers to the fleet.

According to a recent UK Ministry of Defence press released published March 27, 2018:

The third of four new support tankers to be delivered to the UK has arrived in Cornwall for customisation and trials before entering service with the Royal Fleet Auxiliary and being deployed on operations with the Royal Navy.

The arrival of RFA Tidesurge comes just weeks after her sister ship, RFA Tidespring, met up at sea with aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for the first time.

The 39,000-tonne tankers can carry up to 19,000 cubic metres of fuel and 1,400 cubic metres of fresh water in support of Royal Navy operations all over the world.

The detailed customisation work to prepare RFA Tidesurge and her sister ships for operations is being undertaken at the A&P shipyard in Falmouth, sustaining around 300 jobs.

Minister for Defence Procurement Guto Bebb said:

“The arrival of RFA Tidesurge in Cornwall marks another key milestone in the Tide Class programme. Tidesurge will soon join her sister ships in providing the integral support which powers our warships and helps our Royal Navy maintain a truly global presence.”

While in Falmouth RFA Tidesurge will be fitted with UK specific armour, self-defence weaponry and communications systems, with the total UK work content, including A&P, in the Tide Class programme worth around £150 million and sustaining further jobs at 27 UK-based companies.

The customisation work is expected to take around four months after which RFA Tidesurge will begin final sea trials before entering service in Autumn this year.

Meanwhile, RFA Tidespring, which was preparing to conduct a Replenishment at Sea (RAS) refuelling when it met with HMS Queen Elizabeth in February, is currently acting as the training tanker for the Navy’s Flag Officer Sea Training (FOST) and will take part in exercise Joint Warrior in the Spring.


RFA Tidesurge has arrived in Cornwall
RFA Tiderace, which is currently docked at A&P Falmouth, is undergoing preparations for her capability trials which are expected to commence in early April.

Sir Simon Bollom, Chief of Materiel (Ships) at Defence Equipment and Support, the MOD’s procurement organisation, said:

“I’m proud to say that the delivery of the tanker programme will provide vital support for the Royal Navy, providing it with fuel and fresh water, while also being able to undertake a wide range of maritime operations, including humanitarian relief.”

The fourth of the Tide Class vessels – RFA Tideforce – is expected to be delivered later this year.

A&P Group has held the contract to support and maintain RFA ships at home and abroad since 2008. Under the Cluster Support Programme, A&P Group provides maintenance support to groups of MOD vessels, which include RFA Argus and the RFA Bay Class vessels Mounts Bay, Cardigan Bay and Lyme Bay.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1947 on: April 11, 2018, 19:03:53 »
In Canada, we have only two possible Ensign: The Naval Ensign, i.e. the RCN's White ensign, or the Merchant ship ensign, which is the National flag. This is different than the UK or Australia, where the identification of vessels allows for three categories: Vessels of her Majesty's Armed Forces (white Ensign), other vessels of her Majesty's government, or vessels in her service, or vessels commanded by members of the Naval Reserves (Merchant ships commanded by a merchant marine officer also holding commission in the NR) fly the Blue, all other merchant ships fly the red ensign.

...

In the present case, Asterix, a vessel belonging to the merchant service, is obliged to fly the Canadian National flag as her ensign. The CFAV's blue is only flown as secondary indicator that it works as tasked by QHM.

Recent photos of Asterix departing Halifax for RIMPAC show her flying the "Blue Ensign" (CFAV Jack) as her actual ensign.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1948 on: April 12, 2018, 10:47:25 »
Apparently bound for the Pacific, I hope she visits Vancouver

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1949 on: April 12, 2018, 13:02:56 »
Recent photos of Asterix departing Halifax for RIMPAC show her flying the "Blue Ensign" (CFAV Jack) as her actual ensign.

Is this (red circle) what you mean?

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