Author Topic: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)  (Read 760232 times)

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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Loss of the 280s
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2004, 21:28:01 »
Kirk I had to read your post a couple of times because when I originally read it you give the impression that it will only be embarking the LSVW and not the LAVs of an army battlegroup. You might want to edit your post to reflect this to save confusion.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Loss of the 280s
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2004, 21:29:22 »
You are correct EX-D. Sorry for the confusion.  Re-editing now.
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Offline Green Lid

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2004, 21:50:44 »
Kirkhill

You asked for my thoughts, bear in mind I am not an expert in amphibious ops.
If Canada is considering the establishment of such a force,  then I think that it demonstrates a significant shift in thinking at the top.
After all setting up such a force from scratch is not something you do on a whim!!

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2004, 21:52:41 »
Sorry guys I split this from the original 280 discussion to stay more on topic.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
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Offline Green Lid

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2004, 22:27:43 »
Kirkhill

I just opened up the links you posted previously, very interesting.
At a more down to earth army level, they would have to set up a new corps/regiment or perhaps re-train light infantry for an amphibious type role
They talk about deploying a battle group I don't know how realistic that is as you are not going to be deploying armoured vehicles or heavy equipment from the ships.

If Canada wants to have this type of capability then Personally I think it is a great idea.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2004, 23:20:36 »
So it requires some work then does it Green Lid?

You mention light infantry in the amphib role, with some armoured back-up.  There has been some concern expressed on this forum that a such a light force would be relegated to only constabulary duties and not be a proper war-fighting force.  Would you agree with that?

In other words is a light battle group a credible force?

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Offline Green Lid

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2004, 23:55:09 »
In the right circumstances I think that a light amphibious battle group can be a very credible force.It is just the right type of force to use if you are responding to emergency situations, rescuing Canadians trapped in a foreign country for instance.I would see it as being more of a quick reaction type of force, ready to respond and move at short notice.

Offline canuck101

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2004, 02:38:43 »
I was just wondering has anyone seen or heard anything new on the JSS ships since the election promises were made.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2004, 05:20:39 »
Until Parliament sits again in the fall there will be very little progress with any other project beyond the Cyclones.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
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Offline canuck101

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2004, 22:21:16 »
I was just looking at the dnd site: http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/dgmepm/pmojss/index_e.asp
and looking at the Proposed Ship Capabilities.
 
Our proposed JSS ships may look like the the Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) Fort Victoria just a little smaller.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/victoria/

what do you think.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2004, 00:05:26 »
Similiar but all AORs have some degree of commonality world wide from my experience.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
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Offline mjohnston39

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2004, 02:31:43 »
Some recent CG renderings of the proposed JSS from Fleetech news release and DND literature:





Mike.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 00:45:00 by mjohnston39 »

Offline whiskey601

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2004, 11:40:53 »
The locations of the two funnels suggests two independent machinery spaces, which is interesting. Is that an APAR mast structure?

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2004, 12:33:37 »
Two machinery spaces isn't that odd as we have they on the CPFs, could be an APAR or just an enclosed mast.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2004, 16:59:48 »
The two machinery spaces and the Azipod.  Does that mean an Electric Boat concept?

Also, I remember seeing a documentary about a Finnish Oil Tanker designed to cross the Gulf of Bothnia and First Year Ice.  It had an interesting hull form and an Azipod. The vessel appeared like a standard hull form with the bulb at the bow, the bridge in the stern and the azipod below the bridge.  The azipod pushed the tanker through the water conventionally.

In ice, the vessel backed around and presented its "stern" to the ice, rotated the azipod 180 degrees and reversed the rotation of the prop.  This had the effect of both pulling the tanker "backwards" through the ice as well as sucking the water out from under the ice allowing the weight of the vessel to more easily break it when it rode up over the ice.   I believe SNC Lavalin had something to do wiht the design.

The bridge was a double-sided bridge with controls for and aft so that the Captain could control the vessel going both ways.

The designs shown here don't seem to be in line with that control concept but the azipod and hull could be.

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Offline mjohnston39

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2004, 01:05:38 »
KMM has a double acting design tanker:

http://www.masamarine.com/ship_tankers.html

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2004, 02:49:34 »
The looks like the one I was thinking of.  Don't know how I got SNC Lavalin mixed in there.  So its out of one of Kjell Inge Rokke's companies... curious.
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Offline whiskey601

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2004, 18:18:27 »
Another perspective of what mjohnston39 posted above:






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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2004, 18:42:41 »
Wouldn't it make more sense to have it RoRo rather than amphibious? I can't see it as a good idea to try and have an AOR take a beach under fire... Besides, where would we stick the vehicles between all the cargo, fuel, and landing craft?

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2004, 18:46:32 »
Now you are seeing with an amphib and an AOR combination will not work and a transport/AOR will.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Sam69

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2004, 18:50:21 »
Wouldn't it make more sense to have it RoRo rather than amphibious? I can't see it as a good idea to try and have an AOR take a beach under fire... Besides, where would we stick the vehicles between all the cargo, fuel, and landing craft?

This is not an either/or type of argument. You can have the well deck for the amphib type ops and the RoRo ramp. Although the well deck implies the loss of some space inside, it may be a great capability to have if you are trying to land forces in a failed state that either does not have adequate port facilities or where the port facilities have been rendered unusable. Having the well deck does not imply any intention to conduct opposed amphibious operations, it just gives you a few more options for disembarking kit.

Sam

Offline Garbageman

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2004, 18:53:37 »
Having the well deck does not imply any intention to conduct opposed amphibious operations, it just gives you a few more options for disembarking kit.
East Timor for example?  I seem to recall pictures of a unit landing this way (R22R?), so I'm assuming it must have been an allied ship they were landing from?
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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2004, 18:59:07 »
East Timor for example?  I seem to recall pictures of a unit landing this way (R22R?), so I'm assuming it must have been an allied ship they were landing from?

Yes - Aussie in fact. But what is your point? I merely said that the option of adding a well deck to the JSS does not imply any intention of ever conducting an opposed amphib operation in the future. And I'm not even sure that I would call the East Timor landing "opposed."

The only point that I am trying to make is that the well deck option opens up an alternative means of getting gear ashore that is not dependent on the type of port facilities that the RoRo capability requires. And that having the well deck does not imply any ambition to start planning D-Day 2.  ;D

Sam

Offline Garbageman

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2004, 19:04:12 »
Yes - Aussie in fact. But what is your point? I merely said that the option of adding a well deck to the JSS does not imply any intention of ever conducting an opposed amphib operation in the future. And I'm not even sure that I would call the East Timor landing "opposed."

The only point that I am trying to make is that the well deck option opens up an alternative means of getting gear ashore that is not dependent on the type of port facilities that the RoRo capability requires. And that having the well deck does not imply any ambition to start planning D-Day 2.   ;D

My point was only to reinforce and agree with what you were saying - we've used this amphib capability in the recent past, and it would be a nice thing to be able to do on our own.
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Sam69

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Re: JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2004, 19:07:05 »
My point was only to reinforce and agree with what you were saying - we've used this amphib capability in the recent past, and it would be a nice thing to be able to do on our own.

Sorry - my bad. Missed your point (and it was a good one in retrospect). Note to self: engage brain before replying.

 :salute:

Sam