Author Topic: Question re: CELE  (Read 91571 times)

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Offline Tyrnagog

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Question re: CELE
« on: March 20, 2003, 23:30:00 »
I am interested in joining the Army, as a DEO with a career path in CELE.  The recruiting officer says that this [ath was just split into 2 areas, one specialing with the army, the other with the air force.  Does anyone here no anything about this?

Thank you!
But the Sons of Martha favour their Mother of the careful soul and the troubled heart.
And because she lost her temper once, and because she was rude to the Lord her Guest,
Her Sons must wait upon Mary‘s Sons, world without end, reprieve, or rest.

Offline Bert

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Re: Question re: CELE
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2003, 13:39:00 »
I guess this reply is a bit late but here goes.

Check out this link:

 http://www.img.forces.gc.ca/commelec/school/cfsce_e.htm

About half way down the page, look for the miliary occupations.  From my understanding, the CELE program is split for job specifics rather than anything else.  Heres a cut and paste from the program description:

"PHASE IV - Formal Training
This phase marks the separation of air and land CELE officers into the different environments. The aim of this phase is to complete your basic training and prepare you for your first employment as a CELE officer. While earlier phases are more structured, Phase IV more closely resembles military post-graduate education. Prior to starting this phase, you will be assigned to the Land or Air environment for contact employment at selected air and land units. This will provide you with an opportunity to exercise the skills that you have until this point. You will then be returned to Kingston for the final phase of advanced training at the junior level. Land training is approximately 13 weeks in duration and Air training is approximately 10 weeks in duration. The topics covered in this phase are related to the strategic, operational and tactical communications systems as employed in larger combat formations. You will learn how to support operational commanders in every facet, including knowledge of communications employment in military operations, maintenance, and requirements. You will also receive some basic knowledge of communications and electronics project management.

PHASE V - On-Job Training
Following Phase IV – Formal Training, you will undergo a period of "On-Job Training (OJT)" that will provide the necessary "real world exposure" to complete your training. You will perform the actual tasks of a CELE officer, under supervision, in a land or air operational unit. You will then be ready to be assigned to a leadership position at your first unit."

devrik

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Calling all CELEs-to-be...pool info?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2003, 21:17:00 »
Hi all, my big lug (well ok so he‘s a little pale and willowy from possibly wasting his last 4 years getting a CompSci degree) is Waiting on the Call. Looks like he‘s got plenty of company!

Here‘s what I got from Wpg recruiting and various news articles:

1. Next basic Sept19-Dec19 with 2 weeks off for Xmas

2. No more IAP-BOTP or whatever...now the first ten weeks, all officer candidates mix in with everyone else, last 3 weeks split out for the leadership bit

3. Bonus is 40k, 25k payable on successful finish of basic, 15k a year later. Keeps you around, keeps you from getting killed in taxes.

4. Minimum contract for DEO 4 years, says Globe & Mail.9 years, says some Captain downtown. Surely not for the DEOs? Anyone know this one?

Clarifications/corrections welcome.

p.s. How did everyone else end up here? My guy was sure he could get a job at the CSE back in the old days when jobs were fast and thick on the ground. Remember those old days, oh, a couple years ago?!!

CELEwife

Offline MCG

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Re: Calling all CELEs-to-be...pool info?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2003, 23:05:00 »
The obligatory service is 4 years, the contract is for 9.  That means that if he leaves of his own choice prior to the 4 years, he pays back the money.  Leaving before the 9 years (but after the 4) has other penalties, but he can keep the money.

Offline Tyrnagog

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Re: Calling all CELEs-to-be...pool info?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2003, 23:56:00 »
hehehe... CELEwife...  My wife is going through the exact same thing right now.. :-)

All of your info sounds correct, except I am not so sure with your point 2 (IAP/BOTP).. afaik, IAP/BOTP is still around.  But then I may have some wrong info too...

McG is correct about the terms of the contract for the 40k signing bonus.

How did I come around?  Well, I graduated last year with a Bachelors of Electronics Engineering.  I was sure to get a job except for one thing.  The dot-bust.

My job prospects sunk about as quickly as Nortel stock (!)     :D  

Ah well...  Since my brother-in-law joined up as a Gunner, I have been kinda jealous of the training he‘s gotten... and there is also some family history for me..

Great-Grandad.. PPCLI (WW1)
Granddad... fought in WW2 (Armoured)
Father (Reservist)
Uncle (Member in the signal corps until he retired)

So I guess it‘s in my blood...  Best of luck with your hubby getting in this round.. I know the wait is **** .

Is he bilingual?  I know that‘ll make things quicker.. and seeing how you are from Winnipeg...

[edit] You may want to post this same message in the recruiting board.  It is a lot more active then the engineering board, and there are a lot of people with a lot of experience there as well...[/edit]
But the Sons of Martha favour their Mother of the careful soul and the troubled heart.
And because she lost her temper once, and because she was rude to the Lord her Guest,
Her Sons must wait upon Mary‘s Sons, world without end, reprieve, or rest.

devrik

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Re: Calling all CELEs-to-be...pool info?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2003, 00:17:00 »
Thanks for your reply Tyrnagog, will take your advice and move to ‘recruiting‘. Now all I gotta do is find out if spouses can visit in the Megaplex. It‘s so huge, there must be a spare room for me somewhere! Ok, so I should wait till he gets in, right? But I want to know what‘s possible and what isn‘t.

McG thank you for clarifying that 4 years and 9 years were both right re contracts. Should I worry about these ‘penalties‘ you spoke of? Jumping the gun I know! But when you‘re waitin on the Call, you do a little speculating.

Offline Wingman

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CELE vs. Signals Officer
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2003, 19:39:00 »
Hi all,

I was wondering what the difference is between a CELE (83) and Signals Officer (84).  I applied to be a DEO CELE when it was Army or Air Force.  Now it has separated and would like to hear the differences from military personnel in the vocations.  I have read the new job descriptions.

A few general questions:
What different equipment does each vocation work on?  
Are the postings purely Army or Air Force?  
Where are the main postings for each (Army - Gagetown, Shilo and Edmonton - I think)?
I would like to be posted internationally (NORAD as a possiblilty); which vocation has the better chances (I worked in the US for 4 yrs as an Engineer)?
Any other differences that I have not questioned?

Thanks
Wingman
There are no stupid questions.....but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots.

Offline Tyrnagog

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Re: CELE vs. Signals Officer
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2003, 19:57:00 »
To answer a couple of questions as best I can (I am currently waiting to hear from the officers board in this occ.)...

Signals Officer (84) is the land designation and CELE (Air) (83) is the Air Force designation.

What are the differences?  Well, as I am not there yet I can‘t tell you for sure.. but the website gives some good examples.

83:  As a CELE (AIR) officer, you will become involved with numerous high tech electronic systems that support our Departmental command and control environment such as the computer networks and communications systems that support surveillance/ reconnaissance/intelligence, data/information/knowledge management, air traffic control, the full spectrum of terrestrial radio and satellite communications from HF to EHF, radar and navigation, electronic warfare, cryptography, electronic intelligence, and communications and network security

84: As a Signal officer, you will become involved with Army Command Support systems such as Land Force Command, Control and Information Systems (LFC2IS), Intelligence Surveillance Targeting and reconnaissance (ISTAR) systems, the full spectrum of radio systems from HF to EHF, electronic warfare systems, cryptographic systems, and systems for communications security.

So there is a fair bit of difference.

As for where you will be posted, well I can only partly answer that for the army, as that is where all my questions have been directed.  As far as I know, the places you mentioned (Shilo, Edmonton and Gagetown) are fairly popular, as well as Petawawa, Kingston, etc... however, it is possible that you oculd be attached anywhere, to any unit (again, afaik).

It is possible to get posted overseas.  When I had my interview, the capt. said that Signal men were among the first in bosnia, setting up some of the critical infra-structure (anybody, please correct me if I am wrong).

I know I didn‘t touch most of your questions, but I hope I answered them somewhat...
But the Sons of Martha favour their Mother of the careful soul and the troubled heart.
And because she lost her temper once, and because she was rude to the Lord her Guest,
Her Sons must wait upon Mary‘s Sons, world without end, reprieve, or rest.

Offline Wingman

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Re: CELE vs. Signals Officer
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2003, 22:40:00 »
Tyrnagog, thanks for the info.  

I guess I‘m trying to get an idea of what each job work environment is like.  Also my wife wants to get her masters degree and we are currently in a city with no university and no job opp‘s for her. Therefore I would like to be eventually posted in a city with a good university.
There are no stupid questions.....but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots.

Offline Wingman

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Re: CELE vs. Signals Officer
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2003, 13:59:00 »
For those interested.  I just heard the CELE board has convened and we will hear the results in a couple of weeks.
There are no stupid questions.....but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots.

dddenisss

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CELE - what's it all about?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2004, 02:05:34 »
Hi all,

    Like many people here, I am in the process of applying for officer in CF.  My choice is Signals Officer.

    I talked to my recruiter, memorized official CF website and left no thread unturned on this forum.  However, I still have unanswered questions concerning my future profession. 

   -what status/image do Sig Officers have in the army? Are they labelled as paper pushers by Navy/Air?
   -can I expect to participate in combat?
   -do Sig Officers get weapons practice after they finish their training?
   -I am a bit crazy about crypto and computer security. Should I expect to see that as part of my day-to-day activities?

    I would appreciate unofficial, straight-from-the-source answers.

    Thank you!


Offline Still In Sarajevo

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Re: Sig Officer ? (Unofficial)
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2004, 14:37:36 »
As aCELE officer, you will many opportunities to do many different things. Do yourself a favour and don't worry about labels. From the men (NCM's), you'll rarely measure up - that's just the way it is, don't take it personally. If you want some hardcore hands on communications and electronics work then you should join the regular NCM force. We are the ones that handle most of the items that sound interesting to you. A CELE officer will be mostly doing paperwork and trying to organize a section, signing leave passes, approving tasking orders, etc, etc. Everyone that goes through initial military training will qualify on the C7 rifle while officers normally qualify on the Browning 9mm pistol. NCM's also qualify on the 9mm and other weapons depending on their unit. Again the men are the ones with all the medals on their chests from deployments. When an officer has more than two medals, it usually means that they started out as an NCM.

Again, this is my personal experience and I try to remain objective. Other pers may have other opinions from their experiences. My unit is a high readiness unit that deploys on a regular basis. I can not speak for CELE officers that are posted to static positions (Ottawa for example).

Hope this helps a little bit. Feel free to PM me with other questions.
It takes the reasonable man to understand that he must adapt himself to the world around him. It takes the unreasonable man to try and change the world so it adapts to him. That is why our world's progress depends on the unreasonable man.

dddenisss

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Re: Sig Officer ? (Unofficial)
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2004, 15:06:42 »
    Thanks! I appreciate your reply.

     I understand that officers go through C7 and handgun training.  After I have done my training and get posting, are there places where I can practice marksmanship?  As you can tell, I am a bit of a weapons lover. :threat:

     Thanks again for your answer!

Offline Still In Sarajevo

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Re: Sig Officer ? (Unofficial)
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2004, 15:12:47 »
After that, you train when you are told to train.
It takes the reasonable man to understand that he must adapt himself to the world around him. It takes the unreasonable man to try and change the world so it adapts to him. That is why our world's progress depends on the unreasonable man.

Offline hoser

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Re: Sig Officer ? (Unofficial)
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2004, 16:25:57 »
I've got a question that this topic reminded me of.  When I first starting checking out joining, there were CELE (Air) and CELE (Land) occupations.  Some time after that, they changed the CELE (Land) to Signals Officer.  Was this simply a name change, or did anything else change along with this?  Does anybody know the reason for the change?

Offline Still In Sarajevo

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Re: Sig Officer ? (Unofficial)
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2004, 08:46:03 »
There you go, I didn't even know that it changed. I couldn't say why.
It takes the reasonable man to understand that he must adapt himself to the world around him. It takes the unreasonable man to try and change the world so it adapts to him. That is why our world's progress depends on the unreasonable man.

Offline Wong Man Fei

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Re: Sig Officer ? (Unofficial)
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2004, 11:40:49 »
RE: Reply from Kingston Jimmy

To: Kingston Jimmy

Can you please stop talking about officers in the CF being paper pushers ? All officers in CF have basic and combat training (handling weapon is part of the training requirements). Officers are the leaders in the CF. They do tactical planning as well as administration planning. They don't behave as Kingston Jimmy described in his reply here.

Thanks,

Wong Man Fei

Rushrules

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Re: Sig Officer ? (Unofficial)
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2004, 11:33:47 »
The CELE trade likes to change it's spots every few months or so.  Still doing the same job- officers and NCMs ensure Comms always avail.

Offline Still In Sarajevo

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Re: Sig Officer ? (Unofficial)
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2004, 11:13:57 »
If you look for the key words in my posts you would see that I am speaking only from my experiences and from what I see. I thought that I made that clear in original reply. Hopefuly I haven't hurt anybodies feelings here  :salute:
It takes the reasonable man to understand that he must adapt himself to the world around him. It takes the unreasonable man to try and change the world so it adapts to him. That is why our world's progress depends on the unreasonable man.

Offline spacedog

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CELE - what's it all about?
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2004, 14:02:46 »
Good afternoon all,

Just joined this site recently and noticed a few threads regarding CELE/SIGS.   I remember having a difficult time finding answers to a lot of my questions when I was applying, so I figured I'd offer my services to any potential CELE/SIGS Officers.  

I'm a SIGS DEO with 1 year in and I'm currently posted at CFB Kingston at the CFSCE.   Still waiting to finish my training, so I obviously don't have answers for everything, but I definitely know a lot more than I did a year ago :)

So feel free to ask whatever.   You can also email me at spacedog@canada.com if that's easier.

Offline hoser

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Re: SIGS/CELE Officer Questions?
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2004, 14:51:44 »
Ok, I've got a few.   These are pretty general and off the top of my head, so I apoligize in advance for the lack of thought if I ask a dumb question. 

What is the general frame between courses, or for the whole period of phase III/IV?  I read one account of the training schedule, and from what I gathered, basic to OFP was about 2.5 years?  Would this be a good estimate of what to expect?  You say that you're waiting to finish your training, so I assume this means that there is some time spent between courses during Phase III? 

Another question I've got concerns the type of training at the CFSCE.  Now I'm fully aware that I won't be doing the hard-core technical hands-on stuff (which seems fairly typical of many engineering graduates in the private sector as well), but could you elaborate on this snippet from the recruiting information?

Quote
"Emphasis will be placed on leadership, administration, and more advanced theory of communications and electronics and its application"

Even a brief guesstimate of the percentage of coverage that deals with each of the above three basic topics? 

One final question, that I have been unable to get a solid answer on (and I'm not sure if you can help), is the difference between the former CELE (Land) naming convention and the SIGS convention now used.  Any idea what prompted the change?  Was it simply a name change, or was there an overall change in the focus of the trade as well?  I received a letter with my flight information a few days ago that confirms my enrolment as a "Communication and Electronics Engineering Officer (84U)", so clearly the name change is still not completely in use, but I've always wondered why the change did take place. 





Offline spacedog

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Re: SIGS/CELE Officer Questions?
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2004, 17:03:26 »
I'm actually here waiting for Ph II.  I finished French school early, so they sent me here to wait to be sent to CAP.  After you're all done in St Jean (Basic & French), SIGS and CELE get posted to Kingston.  You then get attached posted to Gagetown.

There is generally a fair amount of time between courses, and from talking to people who are are a little ahead of me in the training, it sounds like the course dates aren't always the same every year as well.  For myself, it'll work out as follows:

Sept 03 - Dec 03 - Ph I Basic (St Jean)
Jan 04 - Jul 04 - French (St Jean) (this would extend to Aug unless you manage to pass your test early like myself)
Sept 04 - Dec 04 - Ph II CAP (Gagetown)
Jan 05 - May 05 - OJT (on the job training)
May 05 - Aug 05 - Ph III (Kingston) (can't remember exactly how long Ph III and IV)
Sept 05 - Dec 05 - Ph IV (Kingston)

So yeah, that works out to about 2.5 years.  Things can change though, especially if you fail a course and have to wait a few months for the next one.

With respect to the OJT.  We were recently asked to submit our 3 choices for preferred posting for the period between Ph II and Ph III.  I've also heard though that due to the large amount of privates awaiting training (and the lack of personnel to supervize them) that they might send us to Borden to babysit them while we wait for training :)  This would only be applicable to single guys though.

The training at CFSCE sounds really interesting actually.  You are right that you won't be doing as much hands-on technical stuff as the sigs ops, but you do get some exposure to it from what I've heard.   Most of the time will be spent in the classroom (ie. death by powerpoint).  There is one field exercise during Ph III (2 weeks) and I'm pretty sure they do it up in Petawawa.  In Ph IV, there are 2 or 3 shorter (4-5 days) exercises, some in Pet, some here.  I recently helped out on a Ph IV field exercise.  The candidates were being accessed as Troop Commanders (TPs) and Duty Signals Officers (DSOs).  It was a 5-day exercise, with a Brigade level scenario, in which the two groups of candidates represented two separate signals squadrons.  Basically, they were responsible for providing support for the notional bridage advancement.  They had to monitor the radio traffic, keep their maps up to date, get authorization from bridage hq for moves and locations of signals equipment, etc etc.  It was hard (8-hour assessment periods, back-to-back for 5 days = very little sleep :)) but they all seemed to enjoy it.

As for the snippet.  Leadership and administration of your troops are big ones.  Sounds like you spend a lot more time on why you do something as opposed to how.  Same with the communication and electronics stuff.  It's going to be mostly the theories that we work with.

As for the name change, I got in just after they did that so I was never exposed to what it used to be like.  That's really interesting that they made that mistake on your flight information though.

Hope that helps a bit.

Offline Casing

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Re: SIGS/CELE Officer Questions?
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2004, 17:58:52 »
With regards to splitting CELE into CELE (Air) and Sigs O, here are a few documents that give excellent insight (hoser, I imagine you've already seen these).   The first one is a memo and is probably most informative for a quick overview on why the split was made.   Visit the links below in order to get to the actual document.

   - CELE Occupational Structure Implementation Plan
   - Career Flow Aspects of CELE OSIP Proposals
   - CELE (Air) Occupation Specification
   - SIGS Occupation Specification (The inside link says "CELE (Air)" but the document is Sigs O)

JOHN LEE 27

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Re: SIGS/CELE Officer Questions?
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2004, 20:08:44 »
Helloww...
you ppl sems to know something about DEO recruiting process

I applied for CELE DEO and had an interview six months ago and the CFRC wants me to comeback for a update interview?
I did good in the first interview and why is that second one?
will I loose all the gains I had in the first one? is it going to be a "long" one like last time?

What can expect from this secon interview?

please hel me

Offline Casing

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Re: SIGS/CELE Officer Questions?
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2004, 01:33:13 »
Interview results are only good for 6 months before they need to be "updated".   Your update interview will likely be much shorter.   Just going over any changes that have occured since your last one, and anything new you might want to add.

So, if you did your interview 6 months ago, was your file complete for the last selection in May?   In any case, good luck.