Author Topic: DND DM Comings & Goings (merged)  (Read 33347 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Casing

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 1,135
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 352
  • Gimme Farnham every day
DND DM Comings & Goings (merged)
« on: August 10, 2004, 17:03:25 »
Quote
Prime Minister Paul Martin today announced the appointment of Ward P.D. Elcock as Deputy Minister of National Defence.

Does it matter who fills this position?   Does the Deputy Minister actually do anything?   This is a legit question, I am not trying to be sarcastic.

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news.asp?id=244

Edit: This probably could have gone in News instead, I guess.

Offline Rider Pride

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 29,388
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,816
  • Easy to draw, hard to spell
Re: Deputy Minister of National Defence
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2004, 17:45:11 »
Actually yes he does. The Deputy minister is actually the CDS's boss.
"Return with your shield, or upon it."

Offline Freight

  • Member
  • ****
  • 620
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 225
Re: Deputy Minister of National Defence
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2004, 18:14:48 »
The DM runs the department.  If the Minister changes, typically the DM stays, sometime through a change of party.  So yes it does matter, this person will have a lot of say in what happens with the CF over the next several years.  I think that because he comes from CSIS, we should see a clearer focus for the CF.  I hope anyway.
Greg
Life is not a dress rehearsal. Decide, then do.

Offline Brad Sallows

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 61,045
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,650
Re: Deputy Minister of National Defence
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2004, 20:00:17 »
>The Deputy minister is actually the CDS's boss.

Not quite.  Peers.

http://www.vcds.forces.gc.ca/dgsp/00native/tools/NDHQ_Org_Chart_e.doc
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline Ex-fusilier

  • Member
  • ****
  • -100
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 149
Re: Deputy Minister of National Defence
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2004, 23:50:45 »
The role of the DM is essentially that he/she is chief of staff of the civilian workforce of DND and is the senior civilian advisor to the MND.  The CDS does not answer to the DM, but more to the MND.  All regulations and orders pertaining to the CF are issued by the CDS or by the MND through the CDS.

Offline Casing

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 1,135
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 352
  • Gimme Farnham every day
Re: Deputy Minister of National Defence
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2004, 02:57:05 »
Thanks for the replies!

So, since it is agreed that the DM makes a difference, what are the opinions on Elcock as the new DM?

Offline Sundborg

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • -105
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 451
  • AB
Re: Deputy Minister of National Defence
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2004, 11:48:25 »
He's still a liberal - I think that says most of it there.  The Liberals have already done enough damage to the CF; but, I can't just base my opinion on the history of the party, but that usually is how it is.  We'll have to wait and find out.
Don't look back; stay out of the mud.

Offline Casing

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 1,135
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 352
  • Gimme Farnham every day
Re: Deputy Minister of National Defence
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2004, 12:34:32 »
Requesting input from Infanteer.  Always has good insight on this sort of thing....  And anyone else of course.

Offline clasper

  • Member
  • ****
  • -60
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 227
  • former int weenie
Re: Deputy Minister of National Defence
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2004, 12:39:00 »
Several opinions have been voiced already...

http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,18069.0.html
E Tenebris Lux

Offline Casing

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 1,135
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 352
  • Gimme Farnham every day
Re: Deputy Minister of National Defence
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2004, 12:41:00 »
Ahh, thank you!   Must have missed that thread somehow.  I think I thought that thread had to do with the new director for the CIA so I just skipped it.  My bad.

Could a moderator close this thread, please?   Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2004, 12:44:58 by Casing »

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 406,945
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 21,531
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2007, 09:07:57 »
Mod Squad:  Torn between this and Cdn Politics - happy with your call....

PRIME MINISTER ANNOUNCES CHANGES IN THE SENIOR RANKS OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE
Prime Minister's Office, 18 September 2007
Statement link

Prime Minister Stephen Harper today announced the following changes in the senior ranks of the Public Service. These appointments are effective October 1, 2007:

Ward Elcock, currently Deputy Minister of National Defence, becomes Senior Advisor to the Privy Council Office, pending his next assignment.

Robert Fonberg, currently Senior Associate Secretary of the Treasury Board, becomes Deputy Minister of National Defence.

(....)

ROBERT FONBERG

Date of Birth:
January 1955

Education:
Master of Arts, Economics, Queen's University
Bachelor of Arts (Honours), Economics, University of Toronto

Professional Experience

Since May 2006
Senior Associate Secretary of the Treasury Board
2004 - 2006
Deputy Minister for International Trade and Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs
2002 - 2004
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet (Operations), Privy Council Office
2000 - 2002
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet (Plans and Consultations), Privy Council Office
1998 - 2000
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Liaison Secretariat for Macroeconomic Policy, Privy Council Office
1997 - 1998
Senior Vice-President, Corporate Planning and Technology, Business Development Bank of Canada
1995 - 1997
Principal, Public Sector/Strategy Practice, Ernst & Young Management Consultants
1993 - 1995
Director, Policy Division, Economic Development Policy Branch, Finance Canada
1991 - 1993
Director, Canadian Unity Coordinating Secretariat, Deputy Minister's Office, Finance Canada

And the last time this sort of thing was discussed here (last post - 02 Jul 07)
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,40460.0/all.html
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 477,795
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,316
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2007, 09:25:24 »
It may be that:

1. Clerk of the Privy Council Kevin Lynch/Prime Minister Harper (they are, generally one in the same when these sorts of decisions are taken, I think) are worried about the management of DND, perhaps including some of the recent controversy about the stresses of operations in Afghanistan derailing Gen. Hillier's much ballyhood transformation project.

2. Elcock is wanted elsewhere for his expertize in the intelligence business.

3. Elcock is tired and needs a change. DND is a very big, very 'rich' and very complex department - more of challenge than any other line department, maybe more of a challenge than any other two line departments, combined. Working with O'Connor must have been a strain; shifting to MacKay may have been too much for Elcock.

4. The civilian side of DND may be restless. Rumour had it (a month or so ago) that many senior civil servants chaffed at the "undue emphasis" accorded to military operational requirements at the expense of established, bureaucratic procedures - especially in contracting and financial management. Elcock may not have succeeded in damping the flames of discontent.

It's probably something else entirely. Maybe Elcock's slovenly dress and deportment finally upset the ultra-fastidious Harper/Lynch team.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 406,945
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 21,531
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2007, 10:02:06 »
I note Mr. Fornber's stops in pretty major places (Finance, Treasury Board, Foreign Affairs, Ops & Plans in PCO) -- all the biggies now that he's in DND.

Any sense of being groomed for bigger and better things, or luck of the political draw in postings?

- edit to fix punctuation -
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 14:15:30 by milnewstbay »
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 477,795
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,316
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2007, 12:07:11 »
I don't think there is ever any luck of the draw when DM assignments are concerned.

He does, indeed have an excellent CV.

DND needs a lot more money; more (by 50%) than is currently projected. Fonberg looks like the sort of fellow who might be able to make the case (to Lynch and Rob Wright at Finance) that DND is able to plan and manage well enough to be able to use more money effectively.

My personal sense remains that DND is mistrusted in the political centre in Ottawa because, ever since (highly umpopular but very respected) Bob Fowler left, planning and management, of the whole Department (including the CF), has been something less than excellent - probably less than adequate.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"

Offline retiredgrunt45

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 2,715
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 538
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2007, 13:17:01 »
Quote
The civilian side of DND may be restless. Rumour had it (a month or so ago) that many senior civil servants chaffed at the "undue emphasis" accorded to military operational requirements at the expense of established, bureaucratic procedures - especially in contracting and financial management. Elcock may not have succeeded in damping the flames of discontent.

This hit a nerve :rage: If senior CV feel so upset about the new procurement process, they have only themselves to blame for the less than adequate process that was in place before Harper sped things up. I think they should go back to pushing pencils and shut the F***hell up, or better yet don a uniform and go help our lads in Afghanistan, maybe then we'll see how fast they get new equipment in place, when it's their a**** on the line. Bureaucrats, waste of oxygen.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 13:19:35 by retiredgrunt45 »
The first goal of any political party is to stay in power by whatever means possible. Their second goal is to fool us into believing that we should keep them in power.

A politician is like a used car saleman, he'll promise you a "peach" and then turn around and sell you a "lemon"

"Politicians are like diapers, they have to be changed often because their usually full of crap.

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 429,185
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,089
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2007, 18:06:47 »
I'd look to a collection of indicators:

(1) A new MND.

(2) No destination specified for Mr Elcock.

(3) Ongoing head butting between PCO and DND that has been documented in a number of places (were I keen, I'd find the Army.ca thread).


Looks to me like the Clerk rid himself of that meddlesome priest, and installed one of his own disciples instead.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Online Old Sweat

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 212,730
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,661
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2007, 18:34:49 »
That may be, Dataperson, but Mister Elcock had the intelligence and security desk in the PCO and then ran CSIS. I wonder if there is more to this.

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 406,945
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 21,531
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2007, 07:17:02 »
A bit more, shared with the usual disclaimer - highlights mine....

Demoted deputy tapped to head National Defence
Kathryn May, Ottawa Citizen, 20 Sept 07
Article link

A senior bureaucrat earlier sidelined by the Harper government has been appointed to become the civilian head of National Defence, the department many say has become too powerful under charismatic Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier.

The appointment of Robert Fonberg as the deputy minister of National Defence was part of Prime Minister Stephen Harper's latest shakeup of the top ranks of the public service. Mr. Fonberg replaces Ward Elcock, a longtime deputy minister and former head of CSIS, who becomes a special adviser to the Privy Council Office while awaiting another posting.

Some speculate Mr. Elcock would be an ideal candidate for the foreign intelligence agency the Conservatives promised in the 2006 election.

Mr. Fonberg's appointment stunned many senior officials who say his "in-your-face" management style will shake up National Defence, which many argue is largely being directed by Gen. Hillier, whose charisma and highly effective marketing campaign of the military is reshaping the Canadian forces and the mission in Afghanistan.

Mr. Fonberg, the former deputy minister at International Trade, was essentially demoted and sidelined to Treasury Board as a senior associate secretary in April 2006 after the Conservatives undid the painful and botched separation of of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

Observers say his appointment is a "highly risky gamble" for the government and Mr. Fonberg personally. It is very unusual for a senior bureaucrat in the penalty box to be promoted to the top job in the government's most important portfolios without specific marching orders.

Some say he's being put in the job to "toe-the-line," and that the Afghan mission, like all other government priorities, will be managed by the Prime Minister's Office and officials at the Privy Council Office. But the more pervasive view is that Mr. Fonberg is being sent to rein in the power of the military and the popular Gen. Hillier.

One senior official said the Conservatives want a counterweight to Gen. Hillier to at least tone down the media coverage of the Afghanistan mission so it doesn't overshadow all other issues during the pre-election period.

Alan Williams, a former assistant deputy minister of procurement at Defence, said the department has historically run into problems when the power balance between the civilian and military sides of the department gets out of whack.

"There seems to be just one voice coming out of the military right now," he said. "It's critical for running that military and civilian balance that each understand their areas and accountabilities and each ensure they are being adhered to."

The deputy minister of defence is supposed to oversee the budget and policy, procurement and the management of the non-uniformed public servants working in the department. The chief of defence staff is in charge of the military and its operations and is supposed to execute the government's defence policy.

( .... )
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline Scoobs

  • Member
  • ****
  • 3,075
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 241
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2007, 15:56:40 »
This is not good news for the military.  The new DM is known to be a "cutter" and I sense the Conservatives distancing themselves from the CF for political gains.  All politicians are the same.  They never support us and stand their ground for morals, ethics, and for what they believe in.  Is power all that it is about?  I feel let down.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 15:59:49 by Scoobs »
Variety is the spice of life...

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 477,795
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,316
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2007, 18:03:56 »
...  The new DM is known to be a "cutter" ...

Good.

There is still fat in NDHQ and throughout DND, including in the CF. Even though I've been retired for years and years I feel 100% certain that I can say that without fear of (informed) contradiction. The waste and institutional ineptitude should be cut before it tarnishes the whole oragnization.

DND needs firm policy direction and resources to implement it. Both depend upon Harper and Lynch believing that DND can do the policy and spend the money well. A firm hand at the management tiller will help.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"

Offline Flip

  • Grateful civilian
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 1,310
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 638
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2007, 12:53:52 »
Quote
Good.

There is still fat in NDHQ and throughout DND, including in the CF. Even though I've been retired for years and years I feel 100% certain that I can say that without fear of (informed) contradiction. The waste and institutional ineptitude should be cut before it tarnishes the whole oragnization.

DND needs firm policy direction and resources to implement it. Both depend upon Harper and Lynch believing that DND can do the policy and spend the money well. A firm hand at the management tiller will help.

I don't think anyone can argue with that Edward.

+1
The liberal democracy has only one flaw.....There will be liberals.

No user serviceable parts inside.
Warranty void if cover is removed.

Offline Scoobs

  • Member
  • ****
  • 3,075
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 241
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2007, 14:00:24 »
I agree that there is fat to be cut, but what I meant for "cutting" was that there may be a chance that certain items already purchased or planned to be purchased, will not be bought.  Examples are the C-17's, Chinooks, the rest of the order of Leo II's.  I guess we'll just have to see if we have a fall election and what will come out of that for the CF.  Just thought I'd say, there are tonnes of rumours flying around right know.
Variety is the spice of life...

Offline Flip

  • Grateful civilian
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 1,310
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 638
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2007, 14:08:01 »
Scoobs,

I think Edward is referring to the bureaucracy at DND.
DNDs civilian employees for the most part.

DND cannot be just another civil service department...

 
The liberal democracy has only one flaw.....There will be liberals.

No user serviceable parts inside.
Warranty void if cover is removed.

Online Old Sweat

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 212,730
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,661
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2007, 14:58:10 »
Scoobs,

Purchases that expensive are authorized by Cabinet. There have been no indications that the political leadership is thinking of cancelling them, nor would any DM be so reckless as to defy the central authority by attempting to derail an authorized project. If, on the other hand, the economy was to tank and the government was to put in place a massive austerity program, a DM might mothball or delay the implementation of a program. Most of us have seen that sort of thing happen.

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 477,795
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,316
Re: DND Gets New DM, Current DM Moves to PCO
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2007, 16:32:00 »
I agree that there is fat to be cut, but what I meant for "cutting" was that there may be a chance that certain items already purchased or planned to be purchased, will not be bought.  Examples are the C-17's, Chinooks, the rest of the order of Leo II's.  I guess we'll just have to see if we have a fall election and what will come out of that for the CF.  Just thought I'd say, there are tonnes of rumours flying around right know.

IF there is a Liberal minority government with Dion as leader which needs NDP/BQ support to govern then I'm sure you're right. Several big ticket items will be cut/cancelled.

I doubt, really doubt, that Harper/Lynch put a squinty eyed economist there to serve BQ/Liberal/NDP interests. My guess remains that Lynch has convinced Harper that DND is, chronically, poorly managed and that it needs shaking up - in part to restore the proper civil-military balance in which the DM is the minister's alter ego and the CDS is responsible for the effective administration and discipline of the CF and for planning and overseeing the military aspects of operations.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"