Author Topic: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread  (Read 553952 times)

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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2005, 13:44:43 »
The Qualification Standard (QS) and Training Plan (TP) for the PLQ can be found here:

http://armyapp.forces.gc.ca/38cbg_arsd/plq.htm

Offline mo-litia

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2005, 13:54:08 »
I agree totally with pro patria - the new systems suck some major ***!

I did my PLQ a couple of years ago; some of the mods at my home unit, the rest at WATC.   Once I hit the ground at WATC, I found out that it was a joint Reg / Res course; but, with a conspicuous absence of RegF Infantry troops.   (Somebody's still trying to look out for their own, and I don't blame them.)               Without fail, all of the RegF troops were CSS,as were a good portion of the ResF troops.

End result? The 20% or so of us who were ResF infantry and spent most of our field phase whipping into shape people who hadn't done a section attack since battle school! Good practise, I suppose, but far from the quality of training I could of received had I been able to work on my leadership skills with a competent section.

Oh yeah, on the last day, this thud of a WOG who had REPEATEDLY FAILED his SMALL PARTY TASKING was reassessed for approximately the third time.   The Sgt pulled together a small party for this troop, (All infantry, incidentally, I was one of them.), and told us that it had come down from higher that it was a NO-FAIL COURSE and that we had to punt this guy through!

Not to detract from the course staff at all, they were doing the best they could; but what the hell?   I joined the CF, worked my *** off to get to a point where I had earned a spot on what was supposed to be a challenging leadership course, and then I find out it's a farce and a cakewalk because higher ups have decided that the CF needs jacks - no matter how unqualified!?!?!?!

Oh, I almost forgot - we had every single weekend off without fail; except for one weekend when we where in the field, and then, if I recall correctly, we got one or two days off the following week to make up for missing our weekend!

I would gladly drop my leaf in a second for a chance at a spot on an old style course where I could get my leaf the old fashioned way - EARNING IT.

Bohica
« Last Edit: January 15, 2005, 16:09:45 by mo-litia »
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Offline Bert

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2005, 15:13:00 »
In PLQs, do they mix up Res with Reg, and the different elements like Navy, Air Force, and Army?
If so, is there a difference in "performance" and or "culture conflict" ( don't know
if thats a good way to phrase it) in mixed settings?

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2005, 16:01:46 »
Bert,

See my above post for answers to your questions.  As for mixing of elements my course was all army. Then, the thud mentioned above was ex-Navy, with absolutely no Army training at all. (He had to be shown the bloody C-6 drills because he didn't even know that the belt fed in from the left!!) 

Performance difference; definitely.

Culture conflict; absolutely. You can't mix dog crap with eggs and hope to get a tasty omlette, now can you?
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2005, 16:19:34 »
Bert,

See my above post for answers to your questions.   As for mixing of elements my course was all army. Then, the thud mentioned above was ex-Navy, with absolutely no Army training at all. (He had to be shown the bloody C-6 drills because he didn't even know that the belt fed in from the left!!)  

Performance difference; definitely.

Culture conflict; absolutely. You can't mix dog crap with eggs and hope to get a tasty omlette, now can you?

Before generalizing, you should take heed to the fact that alot of us " aiforce pukes" are ex-army guys with a shitload more experience than you ! You want to make fun of one guy, no prob, i can live with that but don't generalize. Its attitudes like that that cretae problems during joint training/ops !

Offline mo-litia

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2005, 16:41:37 »
aesop,

My intent may have been misunderstood . . . that reference to which you, no doubt, took offense to was intended towards the problem troop written about my first post on this thread. I was just venting some steam at the lack of reason and standards, (and the resulting problems), on today's PLQ courses.

As to my experience level, it is exactly where I want it to be, thanks.   Not every member of the Reserves is an aspiring Regular Force troop, remember?

Cheers
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aesop081

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2005, 16:49:38 »
aesop,

My intent may have been misunderstood . . . that reference to which you, no doubt, took offense too was intended towards the problem troop written about my first post on this thread. I was just venting some steam at the lack of reason and standards, (and the resulting problems), on today's PLQ courses.

As to my experience level, it is exactly where I want it to be at this time thanks.   Not every member of the Reserves is an aspiring Regular Force troop, remember?

Cheers

Fair enough.....may have jumped the gun but still.

I agree with you that not every reservist is an aspiring reg.......i know reservist with more experience than alot of reags so that is not what i meant.  I thought that you were generalizing and i was applying my comment in your case specificaly.

On my JLC/JNCO we had ppl from alot of different trades, with alot of varying experience and some were better than others.  Should some have failed ? You bet ! Was it a difficult course ? Not in my opinion. Should it be ? Damned right ! As for the guy yopu are refering to not having C6 experience, i ask you this : How could he have ?  I tought a pre-JLC at my unit in 2001 and i had a guy in my section that had not even seen a C7.  When he joined it was with the FN......... He was a medic.

Offline mo-litia

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2005, 16:57:23 »
Fair enough.....may have jumped the gun but still.

I agree with you that not every reservist is an aspiring reg.......i know reservist with more experience than alot of reags so that is not what i meant. I thought that you were generalizing and i was applying my comment in your case specificaly.

On my JLC/JNCO we had ppl from alot of different trades, with alot of varying experience and some were better than others. Should some have failed ? You bet ! Was it a difficult course ? Not in my opinion. Should it be ? Damned right ! As for the guy yopu are refering to not having C6 experience, i ask you this : How could he have ? I tought a pre-JLC at my unit in 2001 and i had a guy in my section that had not even seen a C7. When he joined it was with the FN......... He was a medic.

The guy was an ex-Navy binrat who'd been out for years and re-mustered as Army green. Either he'd never touched the C-6, ( I don't know a thing about Navy training!), or he'd been out so long he'd forgotten everything about it.   Nothing against the guy, just rusty as hell and not really cut out to be a leader of men.  So I see where you're coming from about varying levels of experience.

As to my opinions on the Air Force, let me say this. Taking into account my years of experience as a militiaman, I have only one strong feeling about the Air Force . . . jealousy!   ;)
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aesop081

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2005, 17:01:36 »
The guy was an ex-Navy binrat who'd been out for years and re-mustered as Army green. Either he'd never touched the C-6, ( I don't know a thing about Navy training!), or he'd been out so long he'd forgotten everything about it.   Nothing against the guy, just rusty as hell and not really cut out to be a leader of men.   So I see where you're coming from about varying levels of experience.

Is that because of his professional attributes or based on the fact tha he didn't know a thing about the C6 ?

Quote
As to my opinions on the Air Force, let me say this. Taking into account my years of experience as a militiaman, I have only one strong feeling about the Air Force . . . jealousy!   ;)

Why ?

Offline mo-litia

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2005, 17:07:35 »
Is that because of his professional attributes or based on the fact tha he didn't know a thing about the C6 ?

See my first posting about his failing repeatedly during the course . . .

Why?

 . . . jeez, you try to disarm a guy with a joke, and this happens . . . I'm ending this here, bro, it's gotten too far off topic for me!  :salute:
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aesop081

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2005, 17:12:13 »
See my first posting about his failing repeatedly during the course . . .

 . . . jeez, you try to disarm a guy with a joke, and this happens . . . I'm ending this here, bro, it's gotten too far off topic for me!   :salute:

LOL...... ;D

So to get back on topic then, i agree that the PLQ has gotten out of hand. It should be more of a selection to determione if a soldiers has the skills and intestinal fortitude to lead troops.   IMHO , the reason we have all these scandals and failiure of leadership in the CF is the low standards we set in some cases for our leadership hopefulls.   How can we have "top-notch" leaders in the future if we hold leadership "candidates" ( i dont like the term students) to such low requirements ?

Offline mo-litia

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2005, 17:17:39 »
LOL...... ;D

So to get back on topic then, i agree that the PLQ has gotten out of hand. It should be more of a selection to determione if a soldiers has the skills and intestinal fortitude to lead troops.   IMHO , the reason we have all these scandals and failiure of leadership in the CF is the low standards we set in some cases for our leadership hopefulls.   How can we have "top-notch" leaders in the future if we hold leadership "candidates" ( i dont like the term students) to such low requirements ?

I take it we have a truce?   ;D  

I totally agree with you on the fact that low standards in leadership training may come back to bite us in the ***; the disparity is already showing itself at every unit operating out of my armoury.

IMO, If the CF went to trade specific PLQ courses that would do a lot towards correcting the shortfalls; at least for the combat arms.

Is anyone who makes the PLQ training plans reading this? I sure hope so!
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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2005, 17:20:08 »
Instructors dont have to be arseholes, but be fair and firm. I define a good course by its depth, realistic training content, quality of DS, promotion of teamwork, good coursemanship, and cohesion.

One gets to know who the 'buddy-fuc*ers' are.

At the end of the day, you only get out of it what you put into it.

We can also not forget to look forward to the smoker at the end too, but strangely enough, 'smokers' are not the thing here at all. Dunno know if that generic to Aussie military culture or just the sign of the times.

Here I would say the leadership courses have only changed in tech matters, and are still hard core in many ways. No free rides here. I remember mine here not long after arriving, and I was caned hard at times, but only had the difficulty in translating CF lingo to Australian, and vise versa. I was so determined to do my best anyways.

I still remember by CLC (not JLC - I volunteered for a CLC and even had to sign a waver) in the summer 1988.

Definatly not a cakewalk. Learned lots which i still apply today.

Cheers,

Wes
« Last Edit: January 15, 2005, 17:24:25 by Wesley H. Allen, CD »
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2005, 17:23:17 »
IMO, the failiure to hold leadership candidates to high standards and allowing those who do not have the skills to lead to pass, constitutes a failiure in leadership in its own right. On my course at WATC, one gal passed the course ( she was a mat tech) even though she started crying during her classroom skill lecture because the troops were not understanding what she was teaching. Still, she graduated.   What sort of example does that set for those guys who worked hard and passed because they deserved to ?

Offline jamie lewis

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2005, 17:26:00 »
I'm not so sure if you should take advise from a soldier that has been in the training system so long rather then sloging it out with the troops in the trenches.

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2005, 17:36:59 »
Welcome to army.ca.

Although I understand your point, whats your angle Jamie?

Wes
« Last Edit: January 15, 2005, 17:39:50 by Wesley H. Allen, CD »
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Offline jamie lewis

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2005, 18:03:17 »
My main point is to the instructor that has been teaching at various schools for the past 12 years. He might not be the best person to give information. Todays jr leaders that are graduating are also well trained although some dinosaurs might not want to admit it.This is the new army not the old. He is probably the type of dude that would still rather be riding in a horse and buggy not a new state of the art LAV 3.

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2005, 18:25:34 »
IMO, If the CF went to trade specific PLQ courses that would do a lot towards correcting the shortfalls; at least for the combat arms.

Is anyone who makes the PLQ training plans reading this? I sure hope so!

Trade specific PLQ MOd sixes are on the way.     We've got several Cpl's that will be loaded on them in the Spring/Summer, for the infantry they combind the DP2B with the Mod 6.   Which is a step in the right direction, by getting the guys qualified in less time as well as being able to work at the Infantry standard the entire course vice the way Mod 6 was previously ran.


« Last Edit: January 15, 2005, 18:57:31 by MJP »
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Offline mo-litia

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2005, 18:42:31 »
Trade specific PLQ MOd sixes are on the way.     We've got several Cpl's that will be loaded on them in the Spring/Summer, for the infantry they combind the DP2B with the Mod 6.   Which is a step in the right direction, by getting the guys qualifiedf in less time as well as being able to work at the Infantry standard the entire course vice the way Mod 6 was previously ran.


That's great; wish it had been thought of before I did my course, though.
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2005, 19:23:31 »
My main point is to the instructor that has been teaching at various schools for the past 12 years. He might not be the best person to give information. Todays jr leaders that are graduating are also well trained although some dinosaurs might not want to admit it.This is the new army not the old. He is probably the type of dude that would still rather be riding in a horse and buggy not a new state of the art LAV 3.

And might you be a rpoduct of this "new " army you speak of ?  I have not been around long enough (12 years) to say that i am part of what you would call the "old" army.  This has nothing to do with horses and LAV-IIIs.....leadership is still leadership no matter what you use to get around the battlefield.  The current PLQ does a pathetic job at preparing junior NCOs for the reality of modern combat, no matter what the trade.  That leaf that you have over your cheverons are not an entitelment, it puts you in a very demanding position with heavy responsabilities, therfore you should be the best at what you do in order to lead others. As i have mentioned before, somme people hav passed that should never even have attended. Do you think that the CF benefit in this way ?  PLQ should be a selection for leadership, not just a check in the box so you can get a pay raise and new position.  I have done the JLC/JNCO and that was nothing like the stories of CLC that i had heard. The current PLQ prepares you for nothing.  Those graduates that are good leaders, have become good out of their own abilities and previous experience. 

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2005, 19:32:33 »
I'm not so sure if you should take advise from a soldier that has been in the training system so long rather then sloging it out with the troops in the trenches.

I think your being too generic. Quite often, the schools are the first to recieve the new equipment or procedures. Being trained first makes them the SME's. What if the guy was the hottest thing the Infantry has ever seen, but got hurt and categoried? Does that make him less of an authority because he's not with the Battalion? On the other side of the coin, if your Battalion or Unit sends a guy to be instructional staff at a school and leaves him there because he's a glue bag, and they don't want him with the troops, where does the responsibility lay? Especially if you see the grade of the pers coming from that system degrading. As a MCpl you should be questioning your superiors as to the quality of the troops your receiving, if you percieve a problem. Maybe then it can be traced back to the particular instructor that your Unit is protecting in Meaford, Gagetown or wherever. Don't blame the system for the shortfalls perpetuated by your own Unit.
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2005, 20:52:56 »
You have to look back into the past. Today in the RCR for example we have jumped on the band wagon and have joined the rest of the CF. We only sent troops on these courses that have merited to be in the position to go on it. So when your superiors write you PER/PDR's the have put you there for a reason. I have 15.5 yearsin the RCR and did my ISCC in 96, and my experience has made me a better leader.

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2005, 12:01:13 »
Some reserve units use their leadership training positions as a last resort employment option for a bunch of their soldiers, consequently, the people that they think should be leaders are reduced in half by the RTU canoe.  In the reserves, people need to look more at the fact that they were selected to be the future of their units, and apply themselves to their leadership courses 100 percent.  If they just look at it like an other summer tasking, then they will turn out to be those men and women that we all look at and say "HOW" and "WHY".  I am also a fan of doing things in one shot, I did the JLC, JNCO one shot deal in Pet, we had reg and reserve, Medics and Pioneers, we had incredible staff, but the best thing we had was the sections built cohesion.  The weekend courses are kind of loopy for cohesion building, because they get there Friday night, set up, get inspected Saturday morning, get a gentle jacking, but know in the back of their minds that they only have 28 more hours before they can rev their civics, play metal gear, or start a goatee again.  Sunday they get told to pull it together for next time, two weeks from then, and they pack up and go home.  none of that Barracks commander coming in to demo floor buffers, threatening death to anyone that scuffs the brass in P101, getting roded into cleaning the lounge in P50 when you don't even use it.  Plus your section commander can actually help you in 12-13 weeks, your PT level can go up, crap sacks can be weeded out, fail or no fail they get broken when they hit the field or blow their lungs out on 39 words of command.

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2005, 14:05:21 »
What scares me the most is that weak soldiers who have their PLQ gets to teach the new recruits how to be a soldier.

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2005, 15:48:10 »
What scares me the most is that weak soldiers who have their PLQ gets to teach the new recruits how to be a soldier.

That is the biggest failing of our lack of standards these days.
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