Poll

Do you think military service should manditory in Canada?

Don't Know
14 (11.4%)
Yes, but only for 3 years
31 (25.2%)
No
75 (61%)
Don't Know
2 (1.6%)
Who Cares
1 (0.8%)

Total Members Voted: 120

Voting closed: March 19, 2006, 14:39:08

Author Topic: Would Mandatory National Service make the CF stronger?  (Read 77030 times)

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MuayThaiFighter

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Would Mandatory National Service make the CF stronger?
« on: July 05, 2003, 07:54:00 »
As everyone knows in Canada,the Canadian Forces needs more people.

In order to strengthen the Canadian Forces should the gov‘t put out more money in order to make it a requirement for a person coming straight out of high school to join the army?Allowing them to get a free education and learn a new trade in Canadian Forces.

I know other countries used to have it like this but could it not be useful in Canada still?

Offline _Ditch_

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Would be beneficial to most individuals, whether they know it or not, BUT... Canada is a free country, and to force people to join the military outside of their own free will stands against what so many have fought and died for.
Smartest thing the CF could do is to straighten their **** out and make a military career more appealing to people.

Offline Michael Dorosh

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Why dilute a highly professional and motivated force with a bunch of draftees?

I am at the Stampede this year as part of the armed forces displays; talked to two Swiss guys yesterday - they all do mandatory military training and even keep their rifles and ammo at home.  But neither of them knew what a machinegun was and seemed kind of dumbfounded by the C6 and what it did.  I‘m guessing they did basic training but never any kind of section training or infantry stuff.

Is that what we really want?  An army pandering to the whims of 18 year old dumbasses who don‘t want to be there in the first place?
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Offline Gunnar

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Draftees make poor soldiers.  Part of the reason our forces are so good (and were widely loved by the Americans in Afghanistan) is because they‘re hard-trained *volunteers* who *want* to be there.

Drafting 18 years olds into the army hasn‘t improved the culture of most European countries, so I am unsure that it would help these Canada much, even if these guys get their *sh|t* together.

Army training can help an individual, it can‘t help society much as "cultural influence".  What truly needs to happen is a philosphical shift on the part of the Canadian public, towards a philosophy that supports the military.  Can‘t do that by indoctrination...
If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism --Thomas Sowell

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Offline Infanteer

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Read "Starship Troopers", Heinlein has some good insights into mandatory service.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Veteran`s son

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Are there many countries that have compulsory military service?

Also, has Canada ever had compulsory military service in peacetime?

deathwing5

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My country has mandatory service at 18, i was spared it, since i‘m here in canada.  From what my dad tells me training is **** , and you constantly get beats for doing the smallest thing wrong. Even if u look at them wrong.  Makes you hardcore though.

Ruthless4Life

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Quote
Are there many countries that have compulsory military service?
From the top of my head there‘s Israel and Taiwan.

But political/military reasons, they require that amount of numbers.

Canada doesn‘t.

Why the he|| would Canada make conscription? The public would slam the government anyways.

And in order to arm these number of troops, where does the money come from? All these equipment, clothing, training, where do they come from?

If this does happen, the quality of the troops will be terrible. In the current state, the military can barely sustain itself with such a small military doing all these operations worldwide and it‘s straining itself to the max. What we need is a gradual increase in regulars and more in reserve that are fully operation, not conscripts that are f**k ups.

Offline combat_medic

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Some other countries that have compulsory military service:

Austria, Bulgaria, China, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland

There‘s quite a few others, but I don‘t really know all of them.
"If you're in a fair fight, your tactics suck." - Paracowboy

Offline kurokaze

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Quote
Originally posted by combat_medic:
[qb] Some other countries that have compulsory military service:

Austria, Bulgaria, China, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland

There‘s quite a few others, but I don‘t really know all of them. [/qb]
You can add the Phillipines to that list.

Offline Danjanou

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Also Cuba, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicarauga, Colombia, Peru, Brazil, Argentina, Chile etc. Basically most of the Latin American countries aside form those without standing armies such as Costa Rica and Panama.

As for the original question. No I think it would not improve the quality of the CF for some of the reasons already noted. Better to spend the effort on attracting and retaining more volunteer soldiers both regular and reserve.
NASA spent $12 Million designing a pen that could write in the zero gravity environment of space. The Russians went with pencils.

Offline WB

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Read "Starship Troopers", Heinlein has some good insights into mandatory service.  
There was no "mandatory" service in Starship Troopers, but Heinlein did have some good ideas.

While no one was forced into the military, you needed to complete a term of service in order to be considred a citizen. While anyone could own land and run a business, only citizens were allowed to vote and hold a place in the government.

The philosphy was that you‘re not considred responisble enough to make political decisions for the good of the people if you havn‘t already put your a$$ on the line for the good of the people. This was supposed to keep corruption in the government to a minimum, because someone who‘s lost friends while fighting for the state is less likley to exploit the state for personal gain.

Smart guy, that Heinlein was... Check out his book called Stranger In a Strage Land for his thoughts on religion and ethics.

Bringer

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Starship Troopers contained quite a bit of Heinlein‘s view of mandatory service. Basically, he thought it was an awful idea. It‘s expounded on quite a bit early in the book - do you really want someone next to you who‘s just thinking how much he wants to go home, or do you want someone who‘s had to prove how bad he wants to be there, again and again?

When Rico enlists, one of the Sergeants asks him "Do you know what will happen if you don‘t come back after your 48 hours of leave?"

Johnny, thinking it‘s something awful, guesses that he‘ll get arrested. The Sergeant replies with something like "No, not a **** thing will happen. If you don‘t want to be here we sure as ****  don‘t want you either. They‘ll just mark it down somewhere that you bailed out and you‘ll never be eligible to try again."

It‘s a **** good book. I need to buy a new copy since my old one is falling apart. Reread it so many times...

WINDWOLF

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Have to agree with that Bringer.
Own just about everything he has written.

I would hate to see manditory service here.
Don,t want a whiner in my trench,just somebody
i can count on when the crap hits the fan.

If your not here because you want to,get out.

But it sure would help some people with
their work attitude & time appreciation.  :D

Etown

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Hey combat_medic

You might want to check your list again. I know for sure that Spain no longer has mandatory service (I have family there). France has also phased out conscription, and Italy is scheduled to do so by 2006.

Offline combat_medic

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The study I got that from was only a few years old. I didn‘t think it had changed that much in such a short time. My apologies.
"If you're in a fair fight, your tactics suck." - Paracowboy

Pte Lickers

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Everyone just for a cool little reference
Starship troopers is a satire of the war in korea.  His ideas on conscription and military service have previuosly been discussed so theres no point in me repeating it.  But Heinlein does kick *** .

Mandatory military servive is in my opinion foolish.  Some people would not benifit at all from a miliatry expereince and could serve us better by going to university or college.  

However there are  select individuals (theres a group in every school) who have no respect or displine to pursue a legitimate career.  This MIGHT teahc them a usefull trade or simple make them even more rebellious to the system of government and accepted norms of soceity.

MuayThaiFighter

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Quote
Originally posted by combat_medic:
[qb] Some other countries that have compulsory military service:

Austria, Bulgaria, China, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland

There‘s quite a few others, but I don‘t really know all of them. [/qb]
France hasn‘t had mandatory service for quite a few years at least 5yrs anyways,probably more.I know this because my mother is from France and most of my relatives had to join army when they were 18,but it has all now changed.

Germany also doesn‘t have mandatory service and hasn‘t since World War II.They are not even really allowed to have more then a certain amount of people in their army and that‘s due to them having started both World 1 and World 2.

The only time I would agree with mandatory service is when a country goes to war and needs a bigger army in order to defend its country.

Correct me if I am wrong,but if a country with a small army goes against a country with a huge army after sometime the country with a limited army will lose until they have more people they can call to come in to fight and to replace the ones who died.

Canada has a small army,is that not true?

In cases like this,isn‘t mandatory service necessary? I‘m just curious.

WINDWOLF

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I don,t know about that MTF.
Being a "small" army should not matter if your
troops are highly trained & equipmt.
You use to need 3-1 to take a entrenched position.
This may have changed since my time,but 300
guys dieing to take my 100 works for me.
Sooner or later they are going to run out of
troops.Todays technology has changed the way
armies fight,so maybe the more tech a army is
the better their chances of winning.

As for conscrips,they would just be cannon fodder.
Check out Iran & other countries that have
conscrips.Min traning & max dead.

Offline Danjanou

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Once again MTF engages his mouth, or in his case his typing fingers, prior to putting his brain in gear.

France gave up mandatory military service just recently (we covered this in previous posts already)

Germany did have mandatory military service after WWII. Those West German troops I and many othere here trained alongside in 4CMBG were for the most part conscripts as were their counterparts on the other side of the IGB (Inter German Border).

Now on to the main course. Bigger does not equate with better as more than one "real soldier" here has noted.

FYI you may have noted this little thing on the TV the last couple of months called Gulf War II(it was the number 1 show on CNN for a while there).

The US committed 1 Mech Division, 1 Marine Division and assorted Armoured, Airbone etc. units of Brigade size which were equivalent to say a third Division. Add to this a British Division and you have 4 Divs plus support troops.

Care to guess the size of and number of Divisions in the Iraqi Army?

All sorts of factors besides an Army‘s size must be considered. Equipment, training, doctrine, and tactics are major factors. The moral of the army and the mission are also important. The units of the Wermacht and SS that defended Berlin in 1945 against the Soviets were willing to fight to the end. Compare that to the motivation of the average US Army conscript in SEA circa 1970.

All consript armies can fight well. napoleaon conquered most of Europe with one. Also look at the performance of the IDF and the SADF.

Then again they can also come apart very quickly, as was the case in both Gulf Wars and with several Argentine units in the Falklands in 1982 when faced with well equipped, well trained, and determined professional enemies.

Once again for a wannabe who says he wants to join you‘re doing a great job of making yourself look like an idiot in front of the people you may be serving alongside of some day.

Here endeth the lesson.
NASA spent $12 Million designing a pen that could write in the zero gravity environment of space. The Russians went with pencils.

haplo6

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FYI MTF.  Germany most certainly does have mandatory military service.  I know this to be a definate fact as I‘m living their right now.  The only thing that has changed about it in recent years is young people now have the option of working in civil service (ie. cheap gov‘t labour) or the military.

Romania Does not have mandatory military service and neither does Slovakia.  My wife is Romanian and The people I work with are Slovakian.

PilotGal

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I think mandatory military service for 18 year olds is a good idea - for BOTH men and women, for at least 8 months.   :)  But remember, this is not necessarily for a stronger CF, but for efficiency in times of war, when people are drafted. It is always better to have already trained people drafted than training people from point 0 when the war has started. And it also builds character and teaches discipline.  :D

And add Lebanon to that list too (not that it‘s a big deal LOL).   :p  

Mandatory military service at 18 - you‘re spared for a few years if you‘re attending university, but have to go back and serve once you‘re done with your degree. Training is he||. It just totally f*cks up some people - something like that kid in Full Metal Jacket.   :(   If you flee the country to avoid serving, they catch you at the airport once you come back, and you‘ll be charged and imprisoned. LOL. But, there are always ways around this - you can hand someone a coupla hundred dollars and be done with the military service. Many people do that because they‘ve heard so many horror stories - it‘s just literally scary.

And another thing, women are allowed into basic training, but I think they‘re trained separately (!), and then they are appointed to office positions, and can‘t do anything else, like infantry, artillery, etc. And you don‘t advance into the position you want to advance to unless you bribe people and have relatives/friends who can shift you up into that position. It‘s a sad fact that army life is like that - it just shows how corrupt people in the Lebanese army are.   :(  

D.

Offline Jarnhamar

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I‘d be fore some kind of service.

That is until i take a walk downtown and see kids who live on the street because they dont want to be in school or listen to their parents rules.  People who will starve just to spend their last $30 on extacy and bottled water.
Canada totally doesnt have the mentality for that stuff.

Maybe we just need MTF in our army to level things out  :)
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blackhat56

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MTF I hate to correct you but germany has had conscription since the four powers left and the FRG was formed. I spent 5 years in lahr and we worked a lot with german units and a large percentage were draftees. you had the choice of doing your time in the armed forces or any other service to the state. German draftee‘s were treated pretty basic but then at the end of their term they could elect to join the regulars and their benefits went way up, ie pay,quarters, and such. Before unification the bundswehr stood at 3 regular corps and 4 reserve corps so they could throw a lot of manpower at the fulda gap or north german plains. I was born in France as my dad was posted to NATO there before degaulle kicked us out so when I turned 18 I got a letter in french stating that I was drafted lol Quelle surprize needless to say I never reported in as I was already in the cdn army and no friggin way was I going to wear a kepi. lol

ForeverPvt

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On paper it sounds great.  All of our troubled youth get a good kick in the ***  and learn some discipline.  Unemployment drops, blah, blah....  Unfortunately with a conscripted army you get a lower quality soldier and the government has to make consessions for these people.  For instance, look at the Dutch while they had manditory service.  Long hair, ACDC shirts, and Nike‘s while on duty.  If thats the kind of army people want, I‘m outta here.  Besides, if we had to fund all of these people, where would the Liberals get their cash to grow dope in caves?