Author Topic: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada  (Read 132267 times)

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Offline JasonH

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2004, 19:40:38 »
Sounds good  :warstory:
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Offline MikeM

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2004, 20:23:39 »
Very good, surprised we're actually going along with this and taking an actual stance on the subject instead of sitting on the fence.

Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2004, 22:28:01 »
"Expanding the size of the Canadian Forces will not be done at the expense of our existing capabilities. This will not be a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul," Mr. Graham said. "The additional troops will be funded through new investments by the government. And I'm working to have these new resources feature in the next federal budget."

This is what got my attention.
Apparently infamous for his one liners.
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Offline MikeM

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2004, 23:15:52 »
I wonder where that money will come from for those "investments"..

Offline canuck101

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2004, 23:17:40 »
I woke up this morning and the first thing i say was the article on missile defense.  To say i was surprised is an understatement. This is one statement hoping to see more in the future. :)

Offline Goober

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2004, 08:29:03 »
A new article posted today.. Headline "We're undecided on defence shield"

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/EdmontonSun/News/2004/09/24/641563.html

"SUN OTTAWA BUREAU

 
OTTAWA -- Stepping back from strong hints dropped a day earlier, Defence Minister Bill Graham says Canada's participation in a North American missile defence shield is not a done deal. The former foreign affairs minister said negotiations are important for Canada-U.S. relations, but insisted the fate of ongoing talks is still not known. Parliament will have all the facts for an informed debate on the issue, he said.

"It's in this perspective of partnership that we continue our discussions. We will protect Canada's sovereignty, but we're also partners in North America. It's very important to keep that in mind," he said.

Skirting the question of whether the U.S. would guarantee there would be no space weapons, Graham said President George Bush has been advised of Canada's firm position.

"I cannot tell you what the Americans will do over the next 50 years, but this program has nothing to do with putting weapons in space," he said. "It's a program that is ground-based, land-based and possibly sea-based."

North Korea, "rogue states" and terrorist organizations are the biggest threats to North America, he said. A ballistic missile defence shield would protect the continent from new dangers that rise in the future. "

But to me it still seems like they will go ahead with it.

Offline 2FtOnion

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2004, 12:27:37 »
The missile defence shield does not work, even in extremely well scripted test cases where they knew launch postion, velocity, tragectory, they failed to get more than a 15% hit ratio,  so the US Government really should keep it in R&D instead of putting it operational.

 
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2004, 13:28:53 »
Agreed.
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Offline 2FtOnion

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2004, 18:34:19 »
North Korea, "rogue states" and terrorist organizations are the biggest threats to North America, he said. A ballistic missile defence shield would protect the continent from new dangers that rise in the future. "

Nuclear Retaliation for North Korea along with rogue states, should be enough of a deterent, as crazy as the theory of Nuclear Retaliation Deterent is, it has worked.  The only benefit of a Missile Shield would be, it may allow the US another option besides a Counter Nuclear Strike.  If Canada is in on the Shield, just maybe we may have a say in command decision at NORAD.  But we circle back to the fact the Missile Shield doesn't work that well.

And it may lead to another arms race, Russia has begun the development of Manueverable Vehicle Missile, which would overcome the Missile Shield that doesn't work that well.
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2004, 23:28:24 »
However a missile shield is useless against a briefcase nuke.
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Offline 2FtOnion

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2004, 15:04:47 »
Not unless you attach the briefcase to a MISSILE
« Last Edit: September 26, 2004, 15:42:28 by 2FtOnion »
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2004, 15:43:29 »
True but I doubt terrorists will launch an ICBM when they can leave a briefcase in New Yorks subway.
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2004, 19:15:24 »
If it works once, it pays for itself.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2004, 19:50:04 »
Well you hit upon another problem.  Does it actually work like the Patriot did so well (sarcasm).
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Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2004, 18:25:17 »
The missile defence shield does not work, even in extremely well scripted test cases where they knew launch postion, velocity, tragectory, they failed to get more than a 15% hit ratio,   so the US Government really should keep it in R&D instead of putting it operational.

I am fairly certain that no one hin Ottawa believes htta it works.  Having said that, "joining" gets us a seat at the table, and may well parlay into a say in the development of Northern Command - which is why I am a supporter.
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Offline Bert

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Re: Ballistic Missile Defence
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2004, 21:39:43 »

>
China: Weather Satellite Could Have Other Capabilities

Summary

China has launched its latest weather satellite. The new satellite might have
the clandestine capability to detect missile launches, if undisclosed sensor
and telemetry equipment has been built into its payload. If the satellite has
that equipment, two planned follow-on launches could complete a regional
launch detection and missile warning capability for China by 2006.

Analysis

The Fengyun (Wind and Cloud) 2C weather satellite was launched Oct. 19 from
China's Xichang Satellite Launch Center on a Long March 3A booster. The
satellite has both infrared (IR) and visual imagery sensors and is in
geostationary orbit.


China's new satellite could be the beginning of a rudimentary launch
detection and early warning system. Visual and IR sensors are not uncommon on
meteorological satellites, but IR sensors can also be used to detect and
track ballistic missile launches by their exhaust plumes. Minimal
modifications or enhancements to the satellite's IR sensor suite would be
required for it to be able to detect ballistic missile launches in Asia.

China has launched seven weather satellites since 1988. The Fengyun 1 series
consisted of four satellites in polar orbits, which are not useful for launch
detection/warning. The Fengyun 2 (FY-A and FY-B) satellites were placed into
geostationary orbits, similar to the Fengyun 2C. The Fengyun 3 series,
scheduled to be launched by 2006, will carry more sensors and be more
advanced than the previous satellites.

The Fengyun 2C has been touted as China's first modern meteorological
satellite, and is the third in a series of geostationary weather satellites.
It was developed and built entirely in China. Its geostationary orbit -- it
remains over a single point on the earth -- is necessary for constant
observation and monitoring of an area. The satellite's position at 105
degrees east longitude enables it to view the entire Asian landmass. Its
orbit altitude of 22,300 miles (35,786 km) makes the Fengyun 2C an
impractical satellite for imaging anything smaller than clouds, but it would
be capable of detecting heat anomalies -- which could indicate missile
launches -- in the region.

The satellite's position would limit any potential launch-detection coverage
to the Asian landmass. It could detect launches from India, Taiwan, Pakistan,
Russia (east of the Ural Mountains), the Koreas and Japan, for example, but
would be unable to detect events in the Western Hemisphere.

Currently, China has acknowledged no dedicated space-based launch detection
capability. At least three satellites are required for reliable, accurate
launch detection. China's plans to launch two additional Fengyun 2 satellites
by 2006 would give them such a capability. Launch detection from space can be
used to provide warning against incoming missile attacks and to track foreign
missile tests.

If the Chinese have built a launch detection/warning capability into their
latest satellite, it would be consistent with their emerging role as a more
serious regional power -- and be in step with their program of modernizing
their military and making it more technologically advanced. Having the
ability to track missile developments in the region and to warn against
theater ballistic missile attacks is a further and necessary step in this
direction.

(c) 2004 Strategic Forecasting, Inc. All rights reserved.

http://www.stratfor.com
<




Offline bossi

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Re: Ballistic Missile Defence
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2004, 22:28:29 »
Well, in a nutshell ... Star Wars is way over my head (no pun intended, although ...)
If missiles are going to be raining down on us, things are probably going VERY poorly ...

Until then, there are so many other more useful chores we could and should be looking after
(i.e. coastal defence, against smuggling and one-way tourists ...).

Another more practical use of this money would be items which we could use in the event of large-scale emergencies and disasters here at home in Canada, or internationally ...

And, in terms of "bang for the buck" ... the mantra of NATO was "they needed more boots on the ground" (i.e. for Afghanistan and other invitational events).

So, it's a gamble - which will kick in first - my official CF pension for reservists (a.k.a. Lotto 6/49), or the pressing need for a missile shield ... ?  (heck - it's only a toonie ... )
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Offline 2Charlie

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2004, 23:58:40 »
No US Missile Defense Program in Canada

This was sent to me, feel free to comment, sign or forward.  :salute:


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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2004, 00:04:48 »
No thanks, I'll take the protection they wish to afford us.[and economic spin-offs]
Thanks anyways.
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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2004, 01:07:19 »
Hmmmm.  Let's see, I live in South West BC and are likely already in range of the DPRK's ICBM program, I'll keep my support firmly for a system that might well keep me alive someday.

 ::)

Offline clasper

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2004, 01:55:54 »
Even if you're skeptical about the effectiveness of the missile defense systems, it's very important to participate in the process of continental defense.  If we just stamp our feet and refuse to play like a petulant child, we won't have ANY say about how we should defend North America.
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Offline Dogboy

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2004, 13:03:09 »
who will shoot at us tho ?

N Korea no we are not a threat
Russia no there a trade partner now

no one else has the ability to shoot at us anyways its a distraction and money pit that i don't want my tax dollars paying for that dose not work to start with

really is it not better to make Sure you don't get shot at in the first place the to need a sistom that dose not quit work to start with
Iv got a learning disability. Iv had to deal with it for years you can deal with it for a min.

Offline whiskey601

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2004, 13:18:06 »
who will shoot at us tho ?

no one else has the ability to shoot at us anyways its a distraction and money pit that i don't want my tax dollars paying for that dose not work to start with

really is it not better to make Sure you don't get shot at in the first place the to need a sistom that dose not quit work to start with

You obviously have no idea what objectives BMD is directed at, or what the system is about.  Try objectively researching the system, rather than focussing on political bantering on the subject, and I am quite certain you will conclude your assertions are without any justifiable basis.

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2004, 13:49:13 »
who will shoot at us tho ?

N Korea no we are not a threat
Russia no there a trade partner now

no one else has the ability to shoot at us anyways its a distraction and money pit that i don't want my tax dollars paying for that dose not work to start with

really is it not better to make Sure you don't get shot at in the first place the to need a sistom that dose not quit work to start with

Under that logic we should avoid persecuting the war on terror as well as it certainly makes us a much greater target.

Bottom Line:   We can't always leave it to the Americans to stand up to the world's tyrants and terrorists.   We should be taking principled stands and in this case providing strategic defence to our greatest friend and ally qualifies.



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Offline Guardian

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Re: Mixed Messages: Missile Defense Program in Canada
« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2004, 14:32:36 »
who will shoot at us tho ?

N Korea no we are not a threat

We're allies of the US, and the North Koreans consider themselves to be at war with them. I'll also point out that there has been no peace treaty signed between the UN and North Korea - as we were a combatant under the UN, we are still, technically, at war with them.

who will shoot at us tho ?

Russia no there a trade partner now

Germany's biggest trading partner at the start of WW1 was - guess who? - France. Don't count on this.

no one else has the ability to shoot at us anyways its a distraction and money pit that i don't want my tax dollars paying for that dose not work to start with

What about China? They've got ICBMs, and a rather nasty set of rulers. People who run over their own civilians with tanks aren't people I would trust to keep the peace.

really is it not better to make Sure you don't get shot at in the first place the to need a sistom that dose not quit work to start with

I like the idea, but in the real world not everyone thinks rationally. Especially people like Kim Jong Il.... When it comes to defence, assume the worst and make preparations on that basis. Since the US is paying for the system, we have nothing to lose and potentially everything to gain from this.