Author Topic: The Great Gun Control Debate  (Read 864265 times)

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Offline MCG

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3975 on: March 03, 2018, 15:14:52 »
The Rand Corporation has taken a look at firearms policies and their impacts in the USA.  They have determined that the research does not exist to support many of the conclusions being reached in public discussion, but there is evidence to support acknowledging some trends with varying degrees of confidence.

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy.html

They are arguing that more research is needed to understand the problem in the US.  That is probably a good thing.  However, some in this thread may be unhappy to note that not all identified trends support theories posted in this thread.  I assume the same trends would be found in Canada if we were to expre t with different policies and measure the real world results.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3976 on: March 04, 2018, 11:49:55 »
Parkland shooter used 10 round magazines.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3977 on: March 04, 2018, 13:04:29 »
Parkland shooter used 10 round magazines.

According to the Miami Herald ( February 27, 2018 ),

"Cruz went in with only 10-round magazines because larger clips would not fit in his duffel bag".

That is not meant to argue. "All I know is just what I read in the papers, ( and that's an alibi for my ignorance. )"  :)





« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 13:34:58 by mariomike »

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3978 on: March 04, 2018, 18:39:03 »
Old news from five days ago, but another incident of a farmer/rancher defending his property. This time n Alberta.

Rural landowners stand behind Okotoks man charged in shooting
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3979 on: March 04, 2018, 19:52:44 »
Quote
According to the Miami Herald ( February 27, 2018 ),

"Cruz went in with only 10-round magazines because larger clips would not fit in his duffel bag".

Clearly we need to ban 10 round magazines, because they're easily concealable. 50 round drums are much safer.  :rofl:

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3980 on: March 04, 2018, 19:57:53 »
Clearly we need to ban 10 round magazines, because they're easily concealable. 50 round drums are much safer.  :rofl:

 :rofl:

« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 09:24:56 by mariomike »

Offline pbi

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3981 on: March 05, 2018, 09:28:08 »
CNN article:

Banning assault rifles would be constitutional

by Page Pate, CNN Legal Analyst

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/02/opinions/banning-assault-rifles-would-be-constitutional-pate/index.html
 :cheers:

That's referencing the Scalia judgement I mentioned earlier. We don't seem to hear much about the actual wording of that judgement in the US discourse (or screaming match...) about gun control. I think the anti-gunners see Heller VS DC as a defeat for them (and best forgotten about), while the NRA, etc may not really be comfortable with Scalia's conclusions since they clearly open the door for states to pass reasonable restrictions.  Or maybe they're a bit shocked that a jurist often regarded as an icon of conservatism could actually write those words.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3982 on: March 05, 2018, 15:05:15 »
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Offline recceguy

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3983 on: March 05, 2018, 15:44:17 »
Let me try add some of my own context as to the 'left' and their abhorrence to the AR-15 and similar.

I find firearms owners more cognizant of the law and limitations. They want discussions with facts. Not emotion. They are in fact, the SME's on firearms.

I find the 'left' are too eager to jump on board with their condemnation of everything firearm. They like big rallies and lots of screaming and if it only saves one child stuff. They like forcing others to bend to their will. They seldom have the 'truthful' facts and try win arguments by demonizing anyone in opposition to their cause célèbre at the time. Thery knee jerk. They don't think things through to conclusion. Their whole cause is based on emotion, not education.

Case in point. Post this public on your FB page and watch the reactions. Lots of you are military with military friends that will notice the difference. There are tons of people that will 'dislike' your post, because it depicts that dreaded assault rifle. You will see emotion, not knowledge.



 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 15:47:26 by recceguy »
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Offline MCG

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3984 on: March 05, 2018, 16:39:19 »
Let me try add some of my own context as to the 'left' and their abhorrence to the AR-15 and similar.

I find firearms owners more cognizant of the law and limitations. They want discussions with facts. Not emotion. They are in fact, the SME's on firearms.

I find the 'left' are too eager to jump on board with their condemnation of everything firearm. They like big rallies and lots of screaming and if it only saves one child stuff. They like forcing others to bend to their will. They seldom have the 'truthful' facts and try win arguments by demonizing anyone in opposition to their cause célèbre at the time. Thery knee jerk. They don't think things through to conclusion. Their whole cause is based on emotion, not education.

Case in point. Post this public on your FB page and watch the reactions. Lots of you are military with military friends that will notice the difference. There are tons of people that will 'dislike' your post, because it depicts that dreaded assault rifle. You will see emotion, not knowledge.
For a post that starts by criticizing who is using emotions and not facts, this one has chosen a lot of emotionally loaded phrases and presented no facts.

Offline whiskey601

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3985 on: March 05, 2018, 20:42:32 »
in fairness, recceguy prefaced his comment as "context".  Lots of that going around, but more directly to his post, i assume, is that facts don't matter with a discussion about rifles that look like assault rifles.
 

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3986 on: March 05, 2018, 21:07:25 »
Movie starts stopped assaulting/enabling each other long enough to hold the Oscars.

A lot of movie stars make millions off ultra violent movies or movies with guns.

Before the Oscars there was alot of talk about people there wearing little gun control pins on behalf of everytown.

People at the Oscars brought up gun control a bunch of times.

People at the Oscars were protected by armed security with handguns and AR15 rifles with high capacity magazines.


Movie stars should stfu about gun control.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3987 on: March 05, 2018, 21:20:21 »
Movie starts stopped assaulting/enabling each other long enough to hold the Oscars.

A lot of movie stars make millions off ultra violent movies or movies with guns.

Before the Oscars there was alot of talk about people there wearing little gun control pins on behalf of everytown.

People at the Oscars brought up gun control a bunch of times.

People at the Oscars were protected by armed security with handguns and AR15 rifles with high capacity magazines.


Movie stars should stfu about gun control.

All celebs should be given a burner phone with 911 programmed into it. If they get into trouble, just hit the button and wait for John and Ponch to show up. Good enough for us hicks out in the toolies, good enough for Liam Wotsisgob.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3988 on: March 10, 2018, 14:02:00 »
We have to quit blaming games, movies....and guns for the problems and concentrate on human nature. There is not a single data point out there to positively say that anything other than the shooter is responsible.

Penn Gillette said it best (paraphrasing mine) 'Shakespeare is full of graphic murder, deceit, stabbings, poisoning, etc. We teach him in school. No one has ever tried to blame Shakespeare for the stabbings, poisonings or violent murders because someone read his play. You cannot blame the arts. Blame the shooter.'
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Offline recceguy

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3989 on: March 10, 2018, 14:23:44 »
There was an incident this week at a school in the US.

An ISIS sympathiser tried to blow up a school cafeteria but his explosive failed.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/07/isis-inspired-utah-teen-tried-to-blow-up-high-school-police-say.html

I haven't seen anything on TV at all. Where are the democrats and anti gun people? Not a peep.

Obviously, they are not concerned with student deaths, but only the means. So IEDs and knives get no press, but those terrible fully semi automatic, clip fed 'assault rifle' guns get to carry the brunt of the vexatious left. It's about gun control, not student welfare.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3990 on: March 10, 2018, 16:01:18 »
There was an incident this week at a school in the US.

An ISIS sympathiser tried to blow up a school cafeteria but his explosive failed.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/07/isis-inspired-utah-teen-tried-to-blow-up-high-school-police-say.html

I haven't seen anything on TV at all. Where are the democrats and anti gun people? Not a peep.

Obviously, they are not concerned with student deaths, but only the means. So IEDs and knives get no press, but those terrible fully semi automatic, clip fed 'assault rifle' guns get to carry the brunt of the vexatious left. It's about gun control, not student welfare.
Funny you don't get the irony of your post.

ISIS sympathiser tries to use a bomb to blow up a school and fails.

Teen with AR 15 kills 17.

How many kids are alive now because the ISIS sympathiser didn't use a AR 15?
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Offline MCG

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3991 on: March 10, 2018, 16:09:12 »
We have to quit blaming games, movies....and guns for the problems and concentrate on human nature. There is not a single data point out there to positively say that anything other than the shooter is responsible.
But there are “data points” out there that show increase or decreases to various risks in relation to public firearms policies.

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy.html

Offline recceguy

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3992 on: March 10, 2018, 16:25:46 »
Funny you don't get the irony of your post.

ISIS sympathiser tries to use a bomb to blow up a school and fails.

Teen with AR 15 kills 17.

How many kids are alive now because the ISIS sympathiser didn't use a AR 15?

The question you should be asking is how many are alive because the bomber failed. I'm sure, according to the left, he could have just walked in and bought one. I'd say the law worked. He couldn't get one so decided to use an IED. The means is immaterial. Your counterpoint would be completely invalid had the bomb worked. The kid is a nut and needs treatment. I guess it may be time to ban household chemicals.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3993 on: March 10, 2018, 16:30:45 »
The question you should be asking is how many are alive because the bomber failed. I'm sure, according to the left, he could have just walked in and bought one. I'd say the law worked. He couldn't get one so decided to use an IED. The means is immaterial. Your counterpoint would be completely invalid had the bomb worked. The kid is a nut and needs treatment. I guess it may be time to ban household chemicals.
my point would be immaterial if the bomb worked,  true,  but it is significantly harder to make a working bomb than it is to fire a trigger.

I'm happy the kid didn't get his hands on a gun. I'm also happy his bomb didn't work. Unfornuately,  a lot more kids get their hands on working guns than working bombs,  so maybe let's deal with that first and after that problem is solved we work on bombs?
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Offline recceguy

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3994 on: March 10, 2018, 17:08:58 »
my point would be immaterial if the bomb worked,  true,  but it is significantly harder to make a working bomb than it is to fire a trigger.

I'm happy the kid didn't get his hands on a gun. I'm also happy his bomb didn't work. Unfornuately,  a lot more kids get their hands on working guns than working bombs,  so maybe let's deal with that first and after that problem is solved we work on bombs?

And there is your problem. Don't spend time trying to convince inanimate objects what to do. Or getting rid of them. Do you know how many stabbings take place in schools? In 2014 a kid took a knife to 20+ of his schoolmate. The knife didn't have the problem, the kid did. Ban knives?

It is the same as the shootings. It is not the firearm, it's the users mental condition. What you want is thorough backgrounds checks, a wait period and licensing regulations to ensure a person is capable of handling one.

Just like we have in Canada.

I would also tack an automatic, 25 year sentence, no parole or good behaviour, a full 25 years, to anyone caught with or using an illegal firearm. Right now, gangbangers and unhinged nutbars are the cause of the problems and increases that Goodale is trying to prove. Not law abiding, licensed and trained gun owners. I, and every other gun owner in Canada, are checked on a daily basis in the Canadian Police Information Centre (CPIC), because I own a firearm. No other citizen, criminal or otherwise, receives that kind of scrutiny from law enforcement and government other than gun owners. Yet we are the ones preyed on by the government. Not the criminals and not the mentally incapacitated. Imagine, if all the money (millions and millions) that the liebrals have wasted on trying to control a piece of machinery, had gone into mental health care instead.

You need priorities and trying to take away all guns in today's society is an impossible and ludicrous solution that will end up costing billions with very little effect to those that want to break the law. I the meantime, you push mental health off the table and feed it scraps to the detriment of all society.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 17:14:30 by recceguy »
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Offline Jed

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3995 on: March 10, 2018, 17:13:59 »
my point would be immaterial if the bomb worked,  true,  but it is significantly harder to make a working bomb than it is to fire a trigger.

I'm happy the kid didn't get his hands on a gun. I'm also happy his bomb didn't work. Unfornuately,  a lot more kids get their hands on working guns than working bombs,  so maybe let's deal with that first and after that problem is solved we work on bombs?
I call BS on that. It’s not very hard to make a bomb with stuff that is just lying around. I was doing this for kicks (out in the back forty, of course) when I was a pre teen. No thought was ever given to actually hurt people though. Just like using firecrackers and fireworks. It is and always will be about the sick mind not the tool or implement.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3996 on: March 10, 2018, 17:19:07 »
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Quote from: Altair
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How many kids are alive now because the ISIS sympathiser didn't use a AR 15?

There are school shootings with Ar15s present and no one dying.

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Offline recceguy

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3997 on: March 10, 2018, 17:25:16 »
The dastardly AR-15 has been around, for sale as a sporting rifle, since the '60s. A 14 year old could buy one from the Sear and Roebuck catalogue. So why are these shootings only taking place in recent history? I'd say it likely has something to do with the total breakdown in the family unit. Respect, humanity and fairness are taught at home. In the eight years of Obama, poverty stricken single mothers have skyrocketed to approx 70% of that demographic and most of those kids have no father figure. I'd say that may be a good place to look and start.

Almost every kid that goes on a rampage is described as an outcast, solitary, a loner. In reality many were treated that way by the other students and staff. They were bullied and that's why they go back to their school for payback.

That is a mental health problem.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3998 on: March 10, 2018, 17:35:42 »
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #3999 on: March 10, 2018, 18:00:28 »
I call BS on that. It’s not very hard to make a bomb with stuff that is just lying around. I was doing this for kicks (out in the back forty, of course) when I was a pre teen. No thought was ever given to actually hurt people though. Just like using firecrackers and fireworks. It is and always will be about the sick mind not the tool or implement.
it's harder to make a working bomb than pull a trigger.

Discuss.
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