Author Topic: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets  (Read 45134 times)

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Offline thorbahn

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Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« on: April 15, 2005, 18:25:25 »
We have 2 new Officer Cadets in our unit, and I was wondering what are the proper things to do around them. Do they get called Sir? And they don't get saluted, right?

Offline Junius

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2005, 18:38:22 »
Be sure to jack them up.

Offline Strike

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2005, 18:45:30 »
They aren't comissioned so you don't salute them.  But you should call them Sir/Ma'am.

I once got saluted by an RSM in Valcartier while I was an OCdt.  When I asked him why he saluted me he said anyone who spent 4 years working for a degree deserved it in his eyes.  Nice guy.

But, generally, no saluting.
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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2005, 18:49:51 »
Be sure to jack them up.

Yeah, do that... coz when he's a major, he'll NEVER remember a private that climbed on his frame  ::). Be polite, point em in the right direction... sir, yes: salute, no...

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Offline Teddy Ruxpin

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2005, 18:52:30 »
Be sure to jack them up.

Or there's no way he could have been in the ranks at one time and is more than used to dealing with insolent soldiers...  ;D
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Offline thorbahn

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2005, 18:53:34 »
Thank you, seems to be as I expected.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2005, 19:07:36 »
Unless you're comfortable addressing them as "Officer Cadet ______" when you address them, then calling them Sir/Ma'am is both easier and appropriate.

While you may not be required to salute them because of their rank, there are times when it is proper protocol to do so based on their appointment. If they are given an appointment in the unit, which may happen if the unit is short of officers, it is polite and proper to address them and pay compliments as you would for any other officer in that role. For example, if Officer Cadet Bloggins has been made 3 Platoon Commander, then he should be treated as such; addressed as "Sir" when appropriate, and saluted to acknowledge his position within the unit.

More important than trying to find and follow a specific "rule" for behaviour towards an Officer Cadet, keep in mind that shortly he/she will be commissioned and then you will be required to pay proper compliments. If you treat an Officer Cadet with disdain as "not a proper officer" you will only teach him/her that you choose not to be respectful when the QR&O allows you to not be so, even when you knew they are to be commissioned within your own unit. Far better to pay compliments both to demonstrate your own professionalism, but also to give them the opportunity to learn how to respond, and so that they learn that the higher standard can and should be a normal regimental behaviour.


Offline Britney Spears

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2005, 19:11:09 »
Quote
I once got saluted by an RSM in Valcartier while I was an OCdt.  When I asked him why he saluted me he said anyone who spent 4 years working for a degree deserved it in his eyes.  Nice guy.


So you, the OCtd,  decided it was a good idea to correct the RSM over his saluting protocal?  ;D

Honestly, even if it isn't technically correct, Most Ocdts appreiciate a hi-five, if anything it reminds them of their future responsibilities and the corresponding prestige, which always feels great no matter who you are, and it always brightens up everyone's day.



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Offline Marauder

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2005, 19:23:54 »
If your OCDT is being genial/helpful and is eyes/ears open, then sure, give em a pat on the *** with a high-five now and then. If he's a Junior Herr General in the making, just call him Mr. Bloggins and move out with the level gaze. It's kinda like training a puppy. :p
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Offline Strike

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2005, 19:35:53 »
Okay, let me be a little more specific -- I thanked him and THEN asked why he (an RSM) would salute me (a then OCdt).

I'm not obsessive compulsive -- only when it comes to twisted phone cords!!! ^-^
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Offline Garry

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2005, 23:12:35 »
Howdy,

I couldn't disagree more with the concept of saluting Officer cadets.

First off, you never salute the person- you salute the commission.

Second- there is no history that I know of to support saluting an Officer cadet filling a command position. The position could just as easily (and probably more competently) have been filled by a Warrant Oficer- you going to salute him? (bet if you do, you don't do it a second time)

Third- never "thank" someone for saluting you. As stated above, they're NOT saluting you, but the commission- and they're not doing anyone a favour- they're doing what's required. Need to say something? say "good day" , nice weather,,,whatever, but NOT thank you.

Fourth- an Officer Cadet is nothing more (and nothing less) than a future leader- and a current member of OUR team. He/she is there to learn- the quality of YOUR teaching will most likely manifest itself in his/her behaviour later on.

Fifth- bottom line, the salute is an acknowledgement of two professionals.

Good natured ribbing of the young is fun, and welcomes the new kids into the Regimental family in a good way. Ragging on newbies because you think you can get away with it is a losers game- you degenerate yourself, your Regiment, and your efficacy....and sometimes the Officer cadet you're ragging on turns out to be 220 pounds of recently remustered Dragoon seargant.........

Cheers-Garry

« Last Edit: April 15, 2005, 23:17:39 by Garry »

Offline Guardian

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2005, 00:03:58 »
Just for everyone's information, in Gagetown, the Standing Orders state "Officer cadets will be saluted outside of a course context." I think this stands more because of a perceived training opportunity - reminding the about-to-become officers that their scope of responsibility is about to get a whole lot bigger (and give them a chance to learn and practice returning salutes...)

Second- there is no history that I know of to support saluting an Officer cadet filling a command position. The position could just as easily (and probably more competently) have been filled by a Warrant Oficer- you going to salute him? (bet if you do, you don't do it a second time)

A couple years ago, the Artillery School employed an Officer Cadet (awaiting a Phase) as a Troop Commander in W Battery for several months - logic being to give the OCdt some command experience. In such circumstances, you'd better believe the TC gets saluted - and the aforementioned WO, the TSM, would enforce it.

Third- never "thank" someone for saluting you. As stated above, they're NOT saluting you, but the commission- and they're not doing anyone a favour- they're doing what's required. Need to say something? say "good day" , nice weather,,,whatever, but NOT thank you.

Agreed here - this always bugs me when I see it. I'd like to think that the guy saluting me is doing it out of respect for me personally, as well as because of the rank, but he doesn't have to for THAT reason. I try to say "good day..." - thanking the guy for something he's ordered to do anyway just doesn't feel right...

Fourth- an Officer Cadet is nothing more (and nothing less) than a future leader- and a current member of OUR team. He/she is there to learn- the quality of YOUR teaching will most likely manifest itself in his/her behaviour later on.

Fifth- bottom line, the salute is an acknowledgement of two professionals.

May I ask how you square these two statements? They seem contradictory to me. Even assuming the OCdt isn't a professional (that's a dubious statement at best, but we'll leave it), how can you seriously expect them to "manifest" "quality teaching" if you don't treat him as a professional?

I'm not saying that just because he's a professional, you should salute him. Personally, I agree with the previous posts - unless otherwise ordered, NCMs shouldn't feel obligated to salute OCdts who don't hold command roles. There's a training incentive in that, as well - an OCdt who works hard and wins the respect of the troops around him starts getting salutes, and will be encouraged to keep it up ... and learn in a direct way that the trust and respect of the troops is very important.

Offline CTD

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2005, 00:10:28 »
i addresse them by Mr or Mrs. I sometimes salute them. more times then not i dont. I never stood at attention for them when addressing them unless they were in formal charge of some key position ie a troop. etc, for inspection. I always reminded them that no matter what they were ever told by any one the best way to earn the respect of the soldiers is to listen to them and use their knowledge to your advantage,  never be afraid to ask a question, Never ever turn your back on your troops when they need you.

Offline Sailing Instructor

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2005, 00:48:41 »
I always based my ettiquete off the drill manual, which doesn't even mention officer cadets, but does say that besides the queen &al. commissioned officers are the only ones to be saluted. 

At my sea cadet unit, we teach the cadets to salute ncdts, but I always hated it, only receiving the salute when my DCPO reported to me on parade.  (I'm an awful stickler & will march with my arms breast-pocket high until I finish BOTP.)

But now I learn there is a precedent for saluting ocdts at other places.  All I ask is why can't they just be treated as are sgts-maj or CPOs: with respect but no salute? 

How about this: as we can salute civilians, can an officer not to salute NCM reservists who are off duty (& are therefore civilians)?  I rather think we ought not to.

When a CO orders 'salute ocdts' which is contrary to the drill manual, is there a conflict?  The manual is an order isn't it?

Offline Pencil Tech

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2005, 00:59:35 »
I always call them Mr or Ms, and I don't think that's a sign of disrespect, that's the way I was taught. I've had friends who were CFR'd and I went from calling them MCpl to Mr and then Sir when they got their commission. OCdt is not a rank - and not to make a big deal of it - a Pte outranks them. Sometimes they haven't even done basic training yet.   

Offline Big Foot

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2005, 01:08:08 »
Pencil Tech, I advise that you look at the rank structure again. OCdt is an actual rank, and despite the fact you may not think so, they do deserve some manner of respect. As a techincality, privates do not outrank us. As well, do not forget, there are officer cadets, especially within the ROTP program, who are phase 3 qualified in their trade. Like it or not, OCdt is a rank and its here to stay. It might be the lowest officer rank, but it is an officer rank nevertheless and should be treated as such.
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Offline Ditch

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2005, 01:37:42 »
Officer Cadet is an enignma in its self - not an NCM rank, not quite an Officer either.  It is on the bottom of the Officer scale just because eventually they will become one...

There has never been a precedence for an OCdt to be saluted - nor should there be.  If you have an OCdt filling in as your Troop Leader - sobeit - but no salutes.  Sergeant's and Warrant's fill in that duty all the time, there is no difference.

OCdt is the rank given to members in training and/or at school.  If you do not yet possess a University degree, you will be an OCDT until graduation or MOC qualified, whichever happens first.
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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2005, 04:15:55 »
During my time at CFSME, i instructed many Ocdts and the accepted form of adress was Mr/mrs whatever.........they are not to be saluted as they do not have a commission regardless of of their MOC status ( i.e. phase 3 or whichever).  There is a need for respect as they are not "bottom feeders" but future leaders and are to be "groomed" as such by the competent NCOs who instruct them.  To me it boils down to professionalism. No salute..........but with respect.

Offline N. McKay

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2005, 10:00:35 »
How about this: as we can salute civilians, can an officer not to salute NCM reservists who are off duty (& are therefore civilians)?

Off-duty reservists are not civilians.  Where did you get that idea?

Offline CheersShag

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2005, 10:23:01 »
I was always Mr'd and Sir'd (which to be honest I never got used to), never saluted but never called by my last name alone like the Jr. NCM's are.

Saluted once by accident when I was fresh into the uniform and had no idea what to do, I returned the salute as best I could and told them it wasn't neccessary.

No commission-no salute is a perfectly reasonable idea, but remember that that thing is going to have a commission one day and
 you're going to have to work with them, so as aesop said, it's probably best to be respectful even if they're just 'playing grownup' for a while, it is the professional thing to do.

Quote
There is a need for respect as they are not "bottom feeders" but future leaders and are to be "groomed" as such by the competent NCOs who instruct them.

Couldn't have said it better.

Offline NavalGent

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2005, 10:30:17 »
Sailing Instructor is not totally off base with his "off duty reservist = civilian" comment

What I'm sure he was referring to was not of a reservists competency or professionalism, but rather his or her legal status. When off duty, reservists aren't subject to the NDA, and I'm under the impression that they have civilian-esque freedoms when off duty that they don't have when in uniform, and regular force folks don't have at all, such as the right to run for public office.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't take it as an insult or an attack.

Offline N. McKay

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2005, 11:29:11 »
Sailing Instructor is not totally off base with his "off duty reservist = civilian" comment

What I'm sure he was referring to was not of a reservists competency or professionalism, but rather his or her legal status. When off duty, reservists aren't subject to the NDA, and I'm under the impression that they have civilian-esque freedoms when off duty that they don't have when in uniform, and regular force folks don't have at all, such as the right to run for public office.

That's all correct; an off-duty reservist can do certain things that an off-duty regular member can't, as you've outlined.  (Some freedoms remain absent from their lives, e.g. joining a white supremacist group, for those so inclined.  Even with the uniform hanging in the closet, the reservist is a reflection of the Forces.)  But they're not civilians, and not captured by the provision in the drill manual for the saluting of civilians by service members. 

Offline Sailing Instructor

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2005, 13:04:16 »
I was propounding it as a logical issue rather than an actual problem (i.e. that I have a sudden urge to salute my NCM-reservist friends when they're out of uniform).

But I'm still curious on the status of the drill manual (or any publication like that) and CO's orders.  Obviously if the CO orders you to salute a cadet (or anyone for that matter) you salute them, but ought one to ask up the COC to have the policy brought in line with the drill manual.

In favour of saluting cadets if ordered, The drill manual does say:
Quote
34. Other Occasions. Compliments shall be
paid on other occasions as notified from time to time
in the appropriate regulations, orders and instructions.

However, right at the beginning of the compliments section, it states:
Quote
3. In Canada, military compliments are only paid
to the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of
the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign
heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; the
Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence;
lieutenant-governors; and commissioned officers.
Exceptions, such as compliments paid to deceased
service members, are as detailed in paragraphs 20 to
23 and paragraphs 25, 26, 28, 29 and 41.


Note it doesn't mention para 34.

Perhaps there is a CANFORGEN of which I am unaware.

Offline Beadwindow 7

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2005, 23:52:07 »
Quote
Sailing Instructor is not totally off base with his "off duty reservist = civilian" comment

What I'm sure he was referring to was not of a reservists competency or professionalism, but rather his or her legal status. When off duty, reservists aren't subject to the NDA, and I'm under the impression that they have civilian-esque freedoms when off duty that they don't have when in uniform, and regular force folks don't have at all, such as the right to run for public office.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't take it as an insult or an attack.

Actually, if a off-duty reserve officer is in a situation where they may get saluted, they're probably on DND property, and subject to the NDA. just a caveat
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Offline Glorified Ape

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Re: Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2005, 12:27:59 »
From my understanding, the no-commission-no-salute thing is appropriate. Of course, I wouldn't mind being saluted although I'd feel slightly less than deserving of it since I haven't completed any training past IAP and I have no commission. I was saluted once and it surprised the crap out of me - of course I returned the salute but I didn't correct the Mcpl that rendered it.

When people address me, sometimes it's sir and sometimes it's Ocdt. As I said before, since I have no commission I have no expectation to be called sir. Maybe I'm just laid back, I dunno. Maybe I should join the airforce.  ;D

Just as an aside - when I'm dealing with civilian workers and commissionaires I usually call them "sir" or "ma'am" just out of respect. Is that wrong? I've never had someone correct me on it, they just seem to be kind of surprised.

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