Author Topic: CH-148 Cyclone Progress  (Read 536307 times)

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Offline GK .Dundas

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2008, 01:28:48 »
I may be wrong, but I don't think we would be getting ASM capability.  As our navy is more a defensive type navy.  Can't go really deep in details but it would be hard for us to support an Helo doing OTHT.  They would be pretty much alone out there and it's just not the way we do things.

On top, since you would never have our ships alone in a war situation.  We could never make use of any OTHT tactics.  The US navy would take care of that.  ASM capability on helos is an offensive  method, it's just not our purpose.  It would be a waste of money, in my own opinion.

Keep that money to get the army guys some good vehicles so they can get home safe.

this is navy-nesop, over
I'm really hoping you being sarcastic if not perhaps we should let the Americans handle air defense for us too.
Wars happen in the damnedest places and at the oddest times  I can think of any number of scenarios where we we might find ourself all by ourselves and actually have to something along those very lines. I rather have the capability and never ever need it then not have it and need it desperately
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Offline Hippie

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2008, 02:14:47 »
I'm really hoping you being sarcastic if not perhaps we should let the Americans handle air defense for us too.
Wars happen in the damnedest places and at the oddest times  I can think of any number of scenarios where we we might find ourself all by ourselves and actually have to something along those very lines. I rather have the capability and never ever need it then not have it and need it desperately

+1

Offline Inch

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2008, 04:51:36 »
I may be wrong, but I don't think we would be getting ASM capability.  As our navy is more a defensive type navy.  Can't go really deep in details but it would be hard for us to support an Helo doing OTHT.  They would be pretty much alone out there and it's just not the way we do things.

On top, since you would never have our ships alone in a war situation.  We could never make use of any OTHT tactics.  The US navy would take care of that.  ASM capability on helos is an offensive  method, it's just not our purpose.  It would be a waste of money, in my own opinion.

Keep that money to get the army guys some good vehicles so they can get home safe.

this is navy-nesop, over

Wow, you really know nothing of Sea King ops do you? Without getting into details... OTHT is something we do all the time, what's one of the purposes of a helo again? That's right, extending the range of the ship's sensors (aka over the horizon). We routinely fly 50+ miles from mom in order to have a look at what's out there and report contacts if need be. The only thing that's going to change when we get the new helo is that it will be done by link instead of voice.

Having and using our own missile system is not OTHT. A google search will tell you all about OTHT.
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Offline navy-nesop

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2008, 04:52:14 »
I'm really hoping you being sarcastic if not perhaps we should let the Americans handle air defense for us too.

I don't want to burst your bubble, but who do you think handles air defence most of the time?  Don't get me wrong.  I don't like having to rely on other nations to complete our battle group.  But it's just the way it is right now.

There is more to ASUW capabilities than just putting missiles on an helicopter.   You need a whole system to do this kind of stuff, so that's why I don't think we would be getting this capabilities any time soon.  You need to protect that helicopter as much as you can.  You know, watch each others back.  They protect us, we protect them.  Right now we just can't do it efficiently with what we have.  It's hard to explain without getting into OPSEC.

When I say that I don't think we need it, it's because there is other priorities.  I'm just being realistic considering our situation a the present time.

My job on a ship is above water warfare (including air defence),  but right now, we detect and they shout.  Unless you are on a 280, but we only have 3.  It's a big ocean out there.

So don't fire at me, we are not talking about what we wish we had but what we are most likely to get.

Edited after last post:  Wow right in my face!  Like they say , if you are going through hell, keep going.  Thanks for the refresher.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 04:59:44 by navy-nesop »
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Offline h3tacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2008, 15:27:55 »
Where our Navy operates there is a significant threat from FIACs (Fast Inshore Attack Craft, basically any small fast armed vessel). Armed helos have been proven to be one of the most effective platforms to counter FIAC threats. The Navy understands this. My guess is that at some point in the CH148 service life it will be armed with some sort of anti-surface weapon. My preference would be sooner rather than later.


Leadmark: The Navy's Strategy for 2020

Quote
In particular, organic air will allow naval forces to optimise the capabilities of weapons and sensor systems by its ability to extend substantially the ISR and control capabilities of its host unit or task group. An organic air capability is unique in its ability to respond quickly to over-the-horizon threats day or night, in most weather conditions. It will facilitate the rapid investigation of contacts, allowing commanders to conduct Battle Damage Assessment (BDA, to ascertain the need for further engagement), at ranges beyond that which other organic sensors are able to provide accurate information. If armed, it also will permit the prosecution of targets beyond the range of weapon systems fitted to the host unit.

http://www.navy.dnd.ca/leadmark/doc/part7_e.asp#sub3g

 

The Royal Navy's experience in the first Gulf War proved the usefulness of shipborne armed helicopters.

Quote
Six Lynx helicopters (armed with Sea Skua Air to Sea Missiles) .were sent from 829 Naval Air Squadron (NAS) to the Gulf on four Royal Navy frigates. In total the Lynx helicopter was responsible for 15 Iraqi ship kills, at least five of which were made by a single helicopter, Lynx 335 of H.M.S Cardiff. The various confrontations are detailed below:

    * Lynx 335 from Cardiff together with an American Sea Hawk destroy a target, believed to be a minesweeper or landing vessel, marking the first Royal Navy success of the war.
    * Lynx helicopters from Type 42 destroyers Cardiff and Gloucester are dispatched with US forces to destroy two anti-aircraft batteries that had been constructed on oil platforms off the coast of Kuwait. 12 Iraqis were captured in the process becoming the first prisoners of war (POWs).
    * 24th January: Lynx 335 attacks three Iraqi vessels, sinking two minesweepers, off the Island of Quarah. Cardiff 's Lynx tries to capture a minelayer but the Iraqi crew scuttle the vessel and 22 are taken prisoner. The island is later captured.
    * 29th January: A flotilla of 17 landing craft, part of an attempted Iraqi amphibious assault on the town of Khafji, is spotted and engaged by Royal Navy Lynx helicopters. Flights from Brazen and Gloucester attack and sink one vessel while Lynx 335 from Cardiff sinks another. The remainder are damaged, destroyed or dispersed by American carrier based aircraft and Royal Navy Sea King helicopters.
    * 30th January: A convoy consisting of 3 Polnochny class landing ships, three TNC- 45 fast attack craft and a single Type 43 minelayer (also part of the attempted assault on Khafji) is identified. H.M.S Gloucester's Lynx destroys a TNC-45 with Cardiff and Brazen's helicopters attacking the T43. Gloucester's Lynx then destroys the other two TNC45's. Other units were damaged including a Polnochny that was later destroyed by RAF Jaguar aircraft.
    * 8th February: Lynx 335 attacks a Zhuk class patrol boat.
    * 11th February: Lynx 335 attacks and sinks another Zhuk Class patrol boat.
    * 15th February: H.M.S Manchester's Lynx helicopter sinks a salvage vessel named Aka.
    * 16th February: H.M.S Gloucester's Lynx destroys a Polonchy class landing craft."

http://www.btinternet.com/~warship/Feature/gulf.htm




Offline Haletown

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2008, 15:49:40 »
Something in this story doesn't add up right.

At Sikorsky's website they have news about the H92 meeting milestones and the S92 having reached 20,000 hrs ops with a civilian operator.  And there is not even a sniff of this that I can find in any aviation industry websites. 

So is it the helicopter or the mission avionics integration that is going south on this project ?  General Dynamics has that part of the project.  Or is the PMO changing requirements on the fly and changing the Scope of Work ?  Don't know but this story is too vague.

Another odd aspect of the story is announcing a 30 month schedule slip 11 months before first delivery . . .  if it turns out to be an accurate story then whoever is tracking Critical Path in the PMO has some 'splaining to do.  This kind of slip would have popped up a looooong time ago.

I'm going to wait & wee on this story until we get some more details.  I smell a preemptive *** covering happening.


and ref the discussion above about the role of the Cyclone (according to Sikorsky)

"The Cyclone will be multi-mission capable and will perform surface surveillance and control, subsurface surveillance and control, and utility operations that included search and rescue, passenger and cargo transfer, medical evacuations and tactical transport"











Online MarkOttawa

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2008, 16:14:28 »
Did the the Liberals simply choose a lemon?  We were the launch customer for this naval version of a civilian design and so far no-one else has bought it.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/lockheed-to-supply-alq210-derivative-for-ch148-helicopters-03221/#more
http://www.sikorsky.com/details/1,,CLI1_DIV69_ETI263,00.html

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Offline Haletown

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2008, 16:53:20 »
The S-92 has been quite successful selling on civy street - offshore oil, S&R uses come to mind and some of the best civilian fling wing firms have selected it - CHC being the largest helicopter operating company in the world and east coast based Cougar was the launch customer. If it wasn't working for them word would have leaked out by now.    I'll see if I can find some numbers.

I know the H-92 is not the same but there is far more in common than in a complete  new design and both are derived from the Blackhawk series.  So I think the technical risks on the aircraft development side of the program should be manageable.

So I don't think the actual aircraft is a lemon.  OF course, can't say for sure but my hunch is, if there is in fact, a 30 month slip, it will be in the mission systems integration part of the Program.   

But I'm just working a hunch . . . . . 

Online MarkOttawa

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2008, 17:47:35 »
Haletown: You may well have it right;
http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/story.html?id=226818

Quote
...
Mr. Myrhaugen, one of a number of retired officers who have campaigned hard to have the Sea Kings replaced, says negotiations are currently underway between Ottawa and Sikorsky, the prime contractor, to rewrite portions of the Cyclone procurement contract. He says new engineering requirements -- likely a result of technology advances in certain aircraft components, which weren't foreseen in 2004 -- mean the original contract must now be reworked.

"Manufacturers may well have new equipment or upgrades available. And as a result of it, they've come to a situation where the original contract is undeliverable," Mr. Myrhaugen said. "What's being negotiated between Sikorsky and the Crown is how we get the end product in view of that situation.

"This is not abnormal," he said, "but when contracts change, it has an impact on arrival time and cost, and it's almost like starting over in some respects."

The original 2004 contract included penalties against the manufacturer in the event of delivery delays. Mr. Myrhaugen says he isn't aware of any penalties being levied yet, and no official announcement has been made about any delays. Sikorsky's Web site still says the first Cyclone is due for delivery in November...

But note the headline from our ace journalists;

Arrival of new helicopters for army delayed

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Offline cameron

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Re: CH-148 CYCLONE
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2008, 18:03:46 »
It's a nice looking bird that's for sure.  :)

Agreed.
"All men dream: but not equally.  Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible."

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Offline Haletown

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2008, 19:03:52 »
So now I am very curious . . .  what has changed ?? Increased scope ??  Change of scope?  New mission req's ??

Earlier in this thread it was stated the first aircraft was delivered to Florida in August and would be ready for flight deck testing on HMCS Montreal in early 08.  So I'm guessing the aircraft part of the puzzle is basically good to go.

That would leave me to guess mission equipment/sensor package.  Anyone know what's going  on ??  Wouldn't be the first time we wanted some very unique "Canadianized" stuff instead of buying off the shelf and adapting doctrine to the equipment  -  but I'm just guessing

The PMO knows . . .  we will find out eventually.


Offline Ditch

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2008, 03:06:26 »
I wonder if the fact that we are the only customer of the militarized version of this helicopter has slowed down the process some-what.  Our ship-borne helos require folding heads and booms - the civilian choppers don't.  Has this technical aspect made the design too complicated and they are only realizing it now?
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Offline Inch

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2008, 07:11:37 »
I wonder if the fact that we are the only customer of the militarized version of this helicopter has slowed down the process some-what.  Our ship-borne helos require folding heads and booms - the civilian choppers don't.  Has this technical aspect made the design too complicated and they are only realizing it now?

It can't be that complicated, the Sea King folds and it was designed in the 50's. The new SH60R/S Seahawks have a working fold system, I don't see why it would be that complicated to engineer one for the Cyclone when Sikorsky has been building shipborne helos for 50+ years. I would suspect it has more to do with the untested stand alone fly-by-wire system, but I can't say for sure.
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Offline Ditch

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2008, 13:12:30 »
I would suspect it has more to do with the untested stand alone fly-by-wire system, but I can't say for sure.

Interesting...  Does the civilian version not have similar control systems?
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Offline Hippie

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2008, 13:57:48 »
Interesting...  Does the civilian version not have similar control systems?

Negatron.  The H-92 is the only version of this airframe that has FBW.  For now anyways..  Who knows, maybe once all the kinks are worked out, some of the civie operators may want FBW..  It's entirely possible that the system integration part of it is a big challenge as well.  Maybe Baz can shed some light on this.

Offline Inch

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2008, 14:18:31 »
Interesting...  Does the civilian version not have similar control systems?

As Hippie stated, that's a big negatron good buddy. The S-92 has conventional rods and cables connecting the servos to the flight controls, the H-92 will be a stand alone FBW system with no mechanical linkage or backup. It's never been done before, sure there are FBW helos out there, but they all have a mechanical backup to my knowledge.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2008, 14:27:02 »
It's never been done before........

 :o Oh My!!!
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Offline cameron

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2008, 14:30:47 »
As much as I like the Cyclone, and I do, for reasons of safety wouldn't it be better to have mechanical backup?
"All men dream: but not equally.  Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible."

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Offline Haletown

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2008, 14:47:06 »
I recall the EH 101 had an experimental FBY system in 2005/6 but I don't think it ever went into production.  It was called HEAT or something like that.

This Cyclone delay is very curious. 

If it is the FBY system, I wonder if it has anything to do with the NRC's role in the joint development with Sikorsky of the original test-bed FBY technology for the H-92 back in 2005.

"Sikorsky and NRC Aerospace win award for helicopter Fly-by-Wire flight control system

Flight tests using NRC Bell 412 airborne simulator demonstrate significant reductions in pilot workload


Paris, June 13, 2005 — Sikorsky Aircraft and the National Research Council of Canada Institute for Aerospace Research (NRC Aerospace) have received the 2005 American Helicopter Society (AHS) Gruppo Agusta International Helicopter Fellowship award for their achievements in developing advanced Fly-by-Wire (FBW) flight control laws. The international collaboration resulted in the development of an advanced FBW flight control system for the Sikorsky H-92 helicopter that incorporates automatic load limiting control. The advanced control laws were implemented on the NRC Aerospace Bell 412 in-flight simulator, and flight tests were conducted that successfully demonstrated significant reductions in main rotor hub loads during aggressive manoeuvring with no effect on pilot handling qualities. The award was presented at the 61st AHS Annual Forum and Technology Display in Grapevine, Texas on June 2nd, 2005."

http://iar-ira.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/press/news_1_24_e.html


The lack of details coming out makes me think there is some CYA going on . . .  again, just a hunch.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2008, 15:19:35 »
Quote
National Research Council of Canada Institute for Aerospace Research (NRC Aerospace)

 :o Oh My!!!!!
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Offline GK .Dundas

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2008, 16:27:49 »
 Oh goodie ! Brand spankin' new state o' the art cutting edge technology which an engineer friend of mine translates as the ability to burn 100 dollar bills  by the bucketful  while developing ulcers when working out the bugs with the added excitement of discovering new and interesting ways of killing yourself ....and your coworkers and innocent bystanders etc... etc.....................
 I'm hoping that it will all work out and they'll be able to get the the program back on track.But this is what happens when you let military procurement programs be run almost purely for the political gain of the government of the day.   
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Offline Haletown

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2008, 16:30:31 »
Gen Hillier on TV yesterday, commenting on the delay.

42 minute mark

http://www.cbc.ca/video/popup.html?http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/politics/politics_thu.wmv


Offline Haletown

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2008, 17:09:22 »
so here's a potential clue . . .  from Sikorsky

"Sikorsky Aircraft Helicopter With Fly-by-Wire Completes Flawless First Flight
News Category: [Aerospace] [Aviation][Defence-Air]

STRATFORD, Conn., Dec. 21, 2007 - The first H-92(r) helicopter to feature fly-by-wire technology has completed its first successful flight, Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. announced today. Sikorsky is a subsidiary of United Technologies Corp. (NYSE:UTX).

The historic first flight took place on Dec. 20 at 9 a.m. from the Sikorsky Development Flight Center in West Palm Beach, Florida. The new fly-by-wire technology is designed to significantly improve aircraft maneuverability, safety and effectiveness. Sikorsky currently has two development programs which will feature the FBW technology, the X-2 Technology(tm) demonstrator, and the newest model of the BLACK HAWK helicopter, the UH-60M.

"This successful flight of the first H-92 helicopter to feature state-of-the-art fly-by-wire technology ushers in a new era for the H-92 product line," said Stephen B. Estill, Sikorsky vice president & chief marketing officer. "This aircraft was the first of a new generation of helicopters designed to new and more demanding standards for safety and reliability, and with fly-by-wire, it sets course for the path ahead and the next phase of flight testing in 2008.""

http://www.asd-network.com/press_detail/14597/Sikorsky_Aircraft_Helicopter_With_Fly-by-Wire_Completes_Flawless_First_Flight.htm



So could it be that the H-92 is being used by Sikorsky, with our encouragement & NRC R&D invlovement, as the development platform for the  FBY for the X-2 and the next gen UH-60M Blackhawk and Canada, after seeing the successful first flight, has now requested an Engineering Change to include it on our Cyclones ??

Don't know for sure,  but it's plausible.   The  next phase of flight testing in 2008.  line could explain the +30 months on the sched



Offline Inch

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2008, 17:14:26 »
So could it be that the H-92 is being used by Sikorsky, with our encouragement & NRC R&D invlovement, as the development platform for the  FBY for the X-2 and the next gen UH-60M Blackhawk and Canada, after seeing the successful first flight, has now requested an Engineering Change to include it on our Cyclones ??

Don't know for sure,  but it's plausible.   The  next phase of flight testing in 2008.  line could explain the +30 months on the sched

Huh? The Cyclone was always going to have it, what do you think an H-92 is? H-92 = CH148 Cyclone
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Offline Haletown

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2008, 17:23:43 »
yes I know the UH-60/S-92/H-92/Cyclone heritage.

If the Cyclone/H-92 was always going have FBY,  why does Sikorsky say only TWO programs  - the X-2 demonstrator and the UH-60M are being designed with FBY.

There is a disconnect somewhere.

What is the source for your information that it was always part of the plan ?? 


Maybe somebody in Ottawa forget to tell Sikorsky we wanted the FBY option included   :-*