Author Topic: Close Protection Training  (Read 158544 times)

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Offline riggs

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Close Protection Training
« on: October 24, 2005, 17:36:11 »
Is there much training in vip/close protection training in the forces. And do regular army units provide close protection or does that task go to JTF. My goal isn't the JTF, but vip/close protection work does intrest me. Thanks
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 17:32:38 by George Wallace »

Offline Daidalous

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2005, 18:02:30 »
I am pretty sure that Military Police  might receive some training in this.
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Offline Scott

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2006, 21:07:12 »
Edited the title for you.
Be nice for no reason.

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2006, 21:18:34 »
I will PM this thread to our resident expert, but for the next 2 weeks his attendance here will be spotty.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2006, 21:56:31 »
The Combat carry magizine always has a scenario they talk about for protection teams. About $4-5 per issue and some good articles in between the 1911 love-in stuff.

Offline Poppa

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2006, 11:08:09 »
What exactly do you want to know?
1. The MPs recently got the tasking back,
2. We lost 2 who were part of BGen Frasiers team over seas to a roadside bomb,
3. There is a selection held about twice a year with as many courses,
4. The intent as far as I know is to reach a certain critical mass of CP operaters before a CP "unit" is stood up, and
5. That's all I have without getting too far into the weeds.

Cheers
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2006, 11:16:43 »
Poppa

Did you attend the recent Town Hall meeting where the MP's are passing off the CP to Area Security Officers and Reps, or something along those lines?  Apparently there is supposed to be some sort of PPS to inform/show them how it is to be done.  Could you clear this up if you know anything about it?
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Offline Poppa

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2006, 11:19:45 »
I've been on leave for the past week and a half so...no.
Is this just info on the CP tasking or were folks under the impression that the CP was being farmed out to non MP types?
I'm back at work Wed so I can do some snooping
"The Platoon is for all purposes, the unit for whose perfection we strive. Because a perfect platoon means a perfect battalion and brigade or division and the efficiency of any army corps is to be measured by that of it's platoons." Major General Sir John Monash

Offline QV

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2006, 21:18:51 »
I am interested in this info as well.  I don't here any details over seas.  I am doing the CP thing right now in the ghan.

Offline CmbtMP

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2006, 23:31:10 »
I've had a couple of my people apply for CPP.
But I must warn you, you have to be in shape and confident in your weapons handling skills to even consider trying out.
Plus if your icon is correct your also an Officer, which I have to tell you sets yourself at a higher standard than every NCM/NCO at the selection. I've known other Officers who've technically "passed" the CPP course but didn't get selected because of leadership. So you have to certainly not be half-***ed about your approach to the program.

But if you are willing, I wish you the best of luck. 
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Offline Breacher41

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2007, 21:55:17 »
Is it still locked in as an MP only course? I was wandering about things like this. Is there anychance for PRes MP Officers/NCMs to apply for this?
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Offline Poppa

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2007, 23:23:17 »
There are a number of Res MP's who are working in the CP world, domestically and in theater. It was also just opened up for MSE Ops to fill driver positions. The MSE types will go through all the same screening and training but will be used as...drivers, go figure.

MPO's can apply but IMHO there are too many MPO's who want to be Cpls and do all of the cool crap. BTW I know some MPO's who are CP types and I have no problem saying this to them. Don't take it as sour grapes.
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Offline PhilB

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2007, 23:32:34 »
Does anyone know why this isnt open to infantry? I know in Canada CP is more geared towards MP's, but in theater it seems like an infantry specialty to me.

Offline Poppa

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2007, 23:40:05 »
If you can wait a bit, say until tomorrow I'll take a bash at that one for you.

Oh what the hell.

Basically it's down to who owns the capability. Obviously, we'll use other trades because we don't have our own LAV dvrs etc...but if it's in our mandate why not do the job in theater?

I know that didn't answer your question but I think my cats just destroyed something upstairs. I'll try and get a better answer later.
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Offline KevinB

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2007, 00:03:00 »
The basic CP stuff is done by the MP trade - basically they took it due to their "expertise" from doing the DFAIT stuff.
  Highend PSD is done by DHTC - however I understand CSOR will be developing this.

There is a big difference in domestic Executive Protection -- which most DFAIT jobs are as well.
  High Risk PSD as done in Iraq and Afghan - typically gets halfassed by the Military (the US mil as well from what I have seen).


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Offline QV

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2007, 23:17:48 »
That is really too bad that they are accepting MSE Ops in the CP program.  They don't need drivers, every MP who goes thru the training is trained to drive to a very high standard .... they need Signallers and Medics as a priority. 

Offline captjtq

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2007, 00:50:49 »
We were using R22eR folks in my Roto to fill positions here and there, with great success.... PM me if you want more info, this was theatre-specific, obviously - it's an MP mandate, for the most part, with JTF-2 coming in on specific occasions, as they are still responsible for certain aspects of CP (I can mention that much without breaching OPSEC). It's a great go for the MP branch, I really hope that we can sustain it. As a branch, we're stretching thin to retain the capability, but it is good for us. I've got many buddies and troops who have gone CP. I'm seriously debating it in the next year as it's an amazing job overseas, and I want to feel some of that rush that my friends have gone through  and related to me, and have tried to convince me to do, in terms of deployed-CP ops. Those folks who have mentioned that we're opening up the task to MSE-Ops are correct - we need drivers. It's definitely a good go. I don't know about opportunites for CP in other trades. It is a very physically and mentally demanding job... in *my opinion only* while it is a MP mandate right now, there is no reason why we couldn't open it to other trades who can qualify and complete the requisite training.
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Offline QV

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2007, 14:17:44 »
We were using R22eR folks in my Roto to fill positions here and there, with great success.... PM me if you want more info, this was theatre-specific, obviously - it's an MP mandate, for the most part, with JTF-2 coming in on specific occasions, as they are still responsible for certain aspects of CP (I can mention that much without breaching OPSEC). It's a great go for the MP branch, I really hope that we can sustain it. As a branch, we're stretching thin to retain the capability, but it is good for us. I've got many buddies and troops who have gone CP. I'm seriously debating it in the next year as it's an amazing job overseas, and I want to feel some of that rush that my friends have gone through  and related to me, and have tried to convince me to do, in terms of deployed-CP ops. Those folks who have mentioned that we're opening up the task to MSE-Ops are correct - we need drivers. It's definitely a good go. I don't know about opportunites for CP in other trades. It is a very physically and mentally demanding job... in *my opinion only* while it is a MP mandate right now, there is no reason why we couldn't open it to other trades who can qualify and complete the requisite training.

Wow, I don't really know where to begin.....for starters have you actually talked to any CP guys that have come back from theatre about some of this?  The R22eR augmentees are not a "great success"..... From my experience they could barely keep the "great success" off of charge parade or from embarassing the VIP.  One bad apple?  Maybe.  As far as training him in CP drills go - we couldn't where I was, everytime we started to practise something all the LEPs on camp would come out to watch .... not too mention the lack of space.  You can't expect a guy to pick up all the drills in theatre during a few practise runs - so by no fault of their own - they were not good to have on the team.  However, an untrained Vandoo was better then nobody at all.  Still this should not ever happen.   

Secondly the whole MSE Op thing.  I don't know but I would suspect again that nobody asks the guys in theatre or the guys returning.  I don't know who or where they seem to come up with these grand ideas.  Let me make this very clear:

WE DON'T NEED DRIVERS!!!

Every CP member already knows how to drive, its part of the training, its required, is practised all the time.  Each team needs someone who is skilled with comms equipment.  Most meat heads don't know jack s**t about comms gear.  Each team needs someone who is a skilled medic.  Again most meat heads don't know any first aid past what is taught during pre-deployment training!! Many times you are far far away from QRF and medivac... so it would be nice to have some one who can treat a wounded member beyond sticking a tourniquet around his neck!

So basically CP operators know how to drive, know how to shoot, and they know how to protect the vip.  What needs to be brought to the table are skills that MPs don't normally have and that won't be taught to them.  Signallers, Medics, Mechanics, Infanteers - all have skills that are useful and that MPs don't have.  These are the people that should be recruited for the CP program.     


Offline captjtq

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2007, 18:44:06 »
Wow, I don't really know where to begin.....for starters have you actually talked to any CP guys that have come back from theatre about some of this?  The R22eR augmentees are not a "great success"..... From my experience they could barely keep the "great success" off of charge parade or from embarassing the VIP.  One bad apple?  Maybe.  As far as training him in CP drills go - we couldn't where I was, everytime we started to practise something all the LEPs on camp would come out to watch .... not too mention the lack of space.  You can't expect a guy to pick up all the drills in theatre during a few practise runs - so by no fault of their own - they were not good to have on the team.  However, an untrained Vandoo was better then nobody at all.  Still this should not ever happen.   

Secondly the whole MSE Op thing.  I don't know but I would suspect again that nobody asks the guys in theatre or the guys returning.  I don't know who or where they seem to come up with these grand ideas.  Let me make this very clear:

WE DON'T NEED DRIVERS!!!

Every CP member already knows how to drive, its part of the training, its required, is practised all the time.  Each team needs someone who is skilled with comms equipment.  Most meat heads don't know jack s**t about comms gear.  Each team needs someone who is a skilled medic.  Again most meat heads don't know any first aid past what is taught during pre-deployment training!! Many times you are far far away from QRF and medivac... so it would be nice to have some one who can treat a wounded member beyond sticking a tourniquet around his neck!

So basically CP operators know how to drive, know how to shoot, and they know how to protect the vip.  What needs to be brought to the table are skills that MPs don't normally have and that won't be taught to them.  Signallers, Medics, Mechanics, Infanteers - all have skills that are useful and that MPs don't have.  These are the people that should be recruited for the CP program.     



I don't need to ask any of the CP guys. I was the Deputy Task Force Provost Marshal on Roto 2. Yeah, it wasn't the 100% solution, but it was a great success in the view that they already had the mentality, and required a lot less training than even bringing in another non-CP trained MP. It allowed you folks to get on with a lot of jobs that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to do because of manpower issues. And while you're wonderful drivers, and I'd stack you up against anyone, we don't have the numbers to sustain everything at this point. Until those numbers increase, or they increase the numbers of the branch, it's going to be a struggle and we're going to continue to look for other solutions.
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Offline QV

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2007, 19:30:19 »
I don't need to ask any of the CP guys. I was the Deputy Task Force Provost Marshal on Roto 2. Yeah, it wasn't the 100% solution, but it was a great success in the view that they already had the mentality, and required a lot less training than even bringing in another non-CP trained MP. It allowed you folks to get on with a lot of jobs that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to do because of manpower issues. And while you're wonderful drivers, and I'd stack you up against anyone, we don't have the numbers to sustain everything at this point. Until those numbers increase, or they increase the numbers of the branch, it's going to be a struggle and we're going to continue to look for other solutions.


So you didn't do the job but you are qualified to make decisions about it without asking the guys actually doing the job?  That is problem number 1 in our org.  No disrespect, just speaking my mind here.  As far as the augmentees go, that is definately not the way to go and it caused a number of problems - some minor some major.  But that was the solution at the time for a crappy manning problem.  No big deal, no body got hurt, hopefully we don't have to repeat that ever again. 

So why MSE Ops?  What do they bring to the table as far as important skills go?  They arn't bringing driving skills since they have to be trained to drive all over again.  I know what a medic or signaller would bring - much needed and important skills that MPs don't normally have already and something they won't learn before going.   

Offline captjtq

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2007, 21:47:59 »

So you didn't do the job but you are qualified to make decisions about it without asking the guys actually doing the job?  That is problem number 1 in our org.  No disrespect, just speaking my mind here.  As far as the augmentees go, that is definately not the way to go and it caused a number of problems - some minor some major.  But that was the solution at the time for a crappy manning problem.  No big deal, no body got hurt, hopefully we don't have to repeat that ever again. 

So why MSE Ops?  What do they bring to the table as far as important skills go?  They arn't bringing driving skills since they have to be trained to drive all over again.  I know what a medic or signaller would bring - much needed and important skills that MPs don't normally have already and something they won't learn before going.   

No, I don't do the job. But I have had enough exposure to it, and the PM had enough access to SME (The CP Major and the Captains who were in theatre) who spearheaded the effort to ensure that you were able to do your jobs over there, and recommended that we go this way. I never heard a complaint until I saw your post. If it was such a horrible idea, and caused so many problems, how come we never heard about it at the time? Probably because you understood the reasoning behind it, I guess. That said, you're right - it was a quick fix, one that hopefully more courses and qualified CP folks will alleviate.

Why MSE Ops? Because there are not enough MPs to fill all of the tasks internationally (not just over there). It's not a matter of MPs not being good enough to do the job, or the fact that they're trained any better at driving, but that they need more bodies. Someone high up in your world must have made the recommendation higher in Ottawa for them to recruit from the MSE Op trade. I do agree with you on the Medical and Sigs side as well. While TCCC training might be very good, it doesn't replace a medic.

Incidentally, I do hope to change the fact that I don't personally do the job, or at least haven't been trained. A few close friends who were over there as CP have been trying hard to convince me for a while to come over to the dark side - with fair success.  ;D I saw the job you were doing, and it seemed like the best one for MPs anywhere...

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Offline KevinB

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2007, 00:12:51 »
TCCS - does give a better cbt medic than the medic trade (unless you stealing a 6A or 6B medic)
Comms -- uhm -- I would have though any meatheat passed QL3 should know how to talk on the radio.

CP/PSD is not magic science -- and realistically the military won't do it properly either anyway.

Since your short numbers - If you can make it a subtrade and make it a remuster.
I would suggest that your better off recruting from the CF internally and running them thru a 1-2 month PSD/CP course -- plusas a precursor send them to a real driving course (Tony Scotti, BSR, etc.) and a shooting course (BW or MidSouth) for a bit too -- so they have the skills to be employed on a course.

The MP trade needs to understand that the EP methods that they had secured elsehwere are not CP/PSD and they need to adapt. 


Factor in all the high value entities with still get DHTC cadre

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Offline garb811

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2007, 02:46:08 »
The MP trade needs to understand that the EP methods that they had secured elsewhere are not CP/PSD and they need to adapt. 
The Branch did not make this assumption and was aware that there was no in Branch capability to conduct this task when initially re-tasked.  ie. as you've alluded to, MSG do protection but IAW the MOU between DFAIT and DND, MSG do not conduct CPP and are limited to providing Escort only (although in some places the line is obviously very fuzzy and some guys push the envelope).  Currently guys going to certain places are going to outside locations and organizations for enhanced training prior to deployment but as far as I know, this is still not to CPP standards due to the MOU restriction.

Back in the 80's, MP were trained initially by the UK experts and maintained the capability via in-house courses with outside SME assistance from the UK until the task was assumed by Dwyer Hill.  When the capability was re-tasked to the Branch the initial candidates were screened and selected IAW RMP standards and then trained by the RMP.  I won't comment on the current conduct of CPP training as it's not my bag and I haven't kept up on it.

I'm 100% in agreement that this mandate would be best served by a nondedicated MP unit with candidates drawn from across the CF.  Unfortunately it has become the flavour of the day in the Branch and it is having a detrimental effect by taking time, resources and personnel away from what should be our core competencies.

Offline QV

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2007, 20:16:45 »
captjtq,

There were no complaints at the time because we thought it was a good temp fix also ... but after time, us guys on the ground learned that it was not such a good idea at all.  But I am not going into details about that here.   

Infidel-6,

Anyone can talk on a radio.  But programming/fixing/calibrating (whatever) encrypted radios, and having a good general knowledge about some of the foriegn radios we used would have helped out a lot.  Where I was we didn't have a CDN Sigs guy just around the corner to assist.  As far as Ticks radio equipment.... none of us knew how to use it - but that didn't matter because there was no one else to talk to on that system where we were anyway. 

Initially CP training was done in in the UK.  Now it is done else where by the most skilled and professional crew anywhere - so be rest assured our training far exceeds what most countries/companies get for CP. 

________________________________________

You guys are all pretty much on side as far as recruiting goes.  This program needs to recruit from all across the board.  There is simply not enough interest/suitable candidates in such a small org as the MP branch to fill the tasking. 

There is a pretty consistant fail/non-selection rate of 75%.  That is from initial application all the way to training complete and passed.  So at least, despite the manpower shortage, they have not slacked the standards - which is real good to see.