Author Topic: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]  (Read 16765 times)

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Offline munchies

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2011, 19:05:21 »
Your opinion of HM The Queen notwithstanding, she is still the head of state of Canada.  Her representative in Canada is the Governor General.

Now, as a member of the Canadian Forces, should you be one or become one, I remind you that it is an offense to use traitorous or disloyal words regarding Her Majesty and if convicted would be guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding seven years or to less punishment. (Section 94 of the National Defence Act).  And the words alleged to have been used may be either spoken, written, or printed.

Just saying.

So, in short, in spite of what the media may say, or what your opinions on HM The Queen are, the fact remains that Canada is a constitutional monarchy, and has a sovereign as the head of state.

That's intense. I guess i shouldnt join the the parading beaver hats

Offline Container

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2011, 19:09:42 »
That's intense. I guess i shouldnt join the the parading beaver hats

Good. We're sad to see you go.....only because we think its an important that somebody keeps an eye on you.....
Posted again...thats six in six.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2011, 19:11:13 »
I figured I would be locking this one as soon as I read the title.    ::)

Muncie, some advice.  It is better to be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt....
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline DigitalCurrents

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Swearing Fealty
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2017, 00:47:03 »
When I joined, I gave my fealty to the Queen, her heirs and successors by swearing to her picture.  I have co-workers who say they swore fealty to the Canadian Flag.  Was this another option?  Does it vary by recruiting center?

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Swearing Fealty
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2017, 00:52:04 »
When I joined, I gave my fealty to the Queen, her heirs and successors by swearing to her picture.  I have co-workers who say they swore fealty to the Canadian Flag.  Was this another option?  Does it vary by recruiting center?

There's only one Oath. It is the same everywhere.

You either swear an oath or make a solemn affirmation.

Location and decorations are not important.
"The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.” ~General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Swearing Fealty
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2017, 01:01:32 »
QR&Os: Volume I - Chapter 6 Enrolment and Re-Engagement
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-06.page

6.04- OATH TAKEN ON ENROLMENT

(1) An officer or non-commissioned member who is a Canadian citizen or a British subject shall, on enrolment, take the following oath or solemn affirmation:

"I ......... (full name), do swear (or for a solemn affirmation, "solemnly affirm") that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."
The words "So help me God" shall be omitted if a solemn affirmation is taken.

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member who is not a Canadian citizen or a British subject shall, on enrolment, take the following oath or solemn affirmation:

"I ......... (full name), do swear (or for a solemn affirmation, "solemnly affirm") that I will well and truly serve Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her heirs and successors according to law, in the Canadian Forces until lawfully released, that I will resist Her Majesty's enemies and cause Her Majesty's peace to be kept and maintained and that I will, in all matters pertaining to my service, faithfully discharge my duty. So help me God."
The words "So help me God" shall be omitted if a solemn affirmation is taken.

(3) The oath or solemn affirmation prescribed in this article shall be taken before:

a commissioned officer; or
a justice of the peace.
(M)

Offline mariomike

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Re: Swearing Fealty
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2017, 01:02:49 »
See also,

Swearing an oath to the Queen 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=47749.0

Why must i make an oath to the queen if we declared independence from England?
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=102246.0




Get on the bus. Take a ride with us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2lSGnPl-ww

Offline RocketRichard

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Re: Swearing Fealty
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2017, 01:34:23 »
There's only one Oath. It is the same everywhere.

You either swear an oath or make a solemn affirmation.

Location and decorations are not important.
The Canadian flag and portrait of the sovereign are present during an Oath  or solemn affirmation.


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Offline Harris

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Re: Swearing Fealty
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2017, 02:55:28 »
The Canadian flag and portrait of the sovereign are present during an Oath  or solemn affirmation.

Not true in my Unit.  We do them in front of the Regimental Colours.
Cheers

Todd
Army.ca

"...persons escaping a lethal dose of radiation may well be rendered seriously ill and or be more prone to various forms of cancer in later years. Hence, their morale and performance may be expected to slump."
Crap, I think I got a lethal dose!!!

Offline RocketRichard

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2017, 07:45:02 »
Not true in my Unit.  We do them in front of the Regimental Colours.
Uh oh.


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Offline Lumber

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2017, 08:31:46 »
Uh oh.


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Not "uh-oh". While traditionally done, there is no legal or regulatory requirement.
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

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Offline RocketRichard

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2017, 10:13:15 »
Not "uh-oh". While traditionally done, there is no legal or regulatory requirement.


DAOD-5002-1
Setting

7.3 A CO shall ensure that every attestation is conducted in a formal and dignified manner, and that the following items are present:

a framed picture of the Sovereign; and
the Canadian flag or a combination of the Canadian flag and CAF ensign.




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Offline Lumber

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2017, 10:32:51 »

DAOD-5002-1
Setting

7.3 A CO shall ensure that every attestation is conducted in a formal and dignified manner, and that the following items are present:

a framed picture of the Sovereign; and
the Canadian flag or a combination of the Canadian flag and CAF ensign.


And "QR&Os: Volume I - Chapter 6 Enrolment" says nothing about it, so I would take DAOD 5002 to be more as guidance for proper execution, and not legal requirements.

I'll admit, I could be wrong, but I doubt anyone would qualify to be released for "Irregular Enrolment" and have their enrolment voided if there wasn't a picture of the Queen and the national flag present.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 19:24:30 by Lumber »
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline RocketRichard

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2017, 10:39:45 »
Thanks for this Lumber. I'm simply passing on the DOAD reference. Some units in the Army PRes have recently taken over the enrolment ceremonies. The direction is to have the above present. Have a great day.


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Offline trooper142

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2017, 10:49:44 »
And "QR&Os: Volume I - Chapter 6 Enrolment" says nothing about it, so I would take DAOD 5002 to be more as guidance for proper execution, and not legal requirements.

I'll admin, I could be wrong, but I doubt anyone would qualify to be released for "Irregular Enrolment" and have their enrolment voided if there wasn't a picture of the Queen and the national flag present.

I have highlighted the important part of the DOAD to emphasize my opinion on the matter.


Quote
DAOD-5002-1
Setting

7.3 A CO shall ensure that every attestation is conducted in a formal and dignified manner, and that the following items are present:

a framed picture of the Sovereign; and
the Canadian flag or a combination of the Canadian flag and CAF ensign.

The word "Shall" does not confer discretion to the CO, as it is an order. Although you are likely right, and no member is going to be released, not following a DOAD is a service offence; which I will admit is unlikely to result in action, as the offence is minor.

Nevertheless, the DOAD reference is clear, and not having the required items present during the ceremony shows poor planning, poor leadership, and a poor first impression to those who wish to join.

Just my  :2c:

Offline Buck_HRA

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2017, 11:01:05 »
"so I would take DAOD 5002 to be more as guidance..."
Just a quick note on that: "DAOD" stands for "Defence Administrative Orders and Directives"
DAOD's are not a set of "guidance" (suggestions) for members of the CAF to undertake.

Quote
Department of National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces corporate administrative direction is set out in the comprehensive collection of Defence Administrative Orders and Directives (DAOD) that are issued by or under the authority of the Deputy Minister and the Chief of the Defence Staff.

Offline Harris

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2017, 11:05:00 »
I agree the DAOD states what it states.

However I'll also argue that if every CO who did not follow to the letter every DAOD and other rules and regulations of the CAF was jacked up for not doing so, there wouldn't be a single one not jacked.  Not saying it's right, but there are a ton of Regimental or other organization traditions that do not necessarily follow every rule as laid down.  Personally since Recruits in my Unit have been enrolled either in the CO's office (without picture and flag) or in front of the Regimental Colours for at a minimum of the last 35 years, and no one has made an issue, I'll assume it's safe to continue doing so.
Cheers

Todd
Army.ca

"...persons escaping a lethal dose of radiation may well be rendered seriously ill and or be more prone to various forms of cancer in later years. Hence, their morale and performance may be expected to slump."
Crap, I think I got a lethal dose!!!

Offline Buck_HRA

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2017, 12:13:54 »
While I agree you wouldn't see a CO jacked up for not following this particular DAOD, and you wouldn't see someone irregularly enrolled... rules are rules.
As a clerk I've seen plenty of rules not followed through the years, it doesn't mean it's ok - it just means the rules weren't followed.

But ultimately that opens the door to asking who decides which rules are followed and which ones are "soft" rules and ok to break?

Edit Note: Above came across harsh and was not my intent.

The DAOD's have not been in existance for 35+ years, so the CO doing the enrollment may not even be aware of the policy.
It is the "job" of people like the Recruiting NCO and Chief Clerk to know policies, admin orders, etc.

In my experience I have reported to many CO's that weren't necessarily up to date on all the policies, and as their Chief Clerk I explained the rules & regulations to them.
I have yet to report to a CO that when I brought a policy to their attention (DAOD or otherwise) would then ignore the policy/order/directive.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 12:26:12 by Buck_HRA »

Offline Harris

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2017, 17:17:57 »
Ack, and I agree to your points.  I am the CO and I'd never know that DAOD was in existence.  Haven't heard anyone else in the Brigade mention it either when swearing in.  The Inf Regiments I know use the Colours.  Now I guess Ill have to find a way to get a current picture of the Queen in a timely manner and add the Canadian Flag to the area near the Colours case.
Cheers

Todd
Army.ca

"...persons escaping a lethal dose of radiation may well be rendered seriously ill and or be more prone to various forms of cancer in later years. Hence, their morale and performance may be expected to slump."
Crap, I think I got a lethal dose!!!

Offline Lumber

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2017, 19:40:42 »
Just a quick note on that: "DAOD" stands for "Defence Administrative Orders and Directives"
DAOD's are not a set of "guidance" (suggestions) for members of the CAF to undertake.

Hey, I'm not denying that DAODs are "Orders and Directives", and I'm on the same side of the argument as you when it comes to "hard" vs "soft" orders.

However, the way I would look at it is that the DAOD is an order to the CO and the unit on how enrolments shall be conducted, whereas the QR&O establishes what is a legal enrolment and what is not. So long as they speak the correct words and the enrolment is conducted by an officer, you could do the enrolment at Hooters with everyone wearing power-puff girls costumes and the enrolment itself would 100% valid.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 21:45:58 by Lumber »
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2017, 20:53:36 »
So long as they speak the correct words and the enrolment is conduct by an officer, you could do the enrolment at Hooters with everyone wearing power-puff girls costumes and the enrolment itself would 100% valid.

With that context, the RCN makes a lot more sense.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Enrollment: Swearing an Oath or Affirmation [merged]
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2017, 20:56:30 »
Hey, I'm not denying that DAODs are "Orders and Directives", and I'm on the same side of the argument as you when it comes to "hard" vs "soft" orders.

However, the way I would look at it is that the DAOD is an order to the CO and the unit on how enrolments shall be conducted, whereas the QR&O establishes what is a legal enrolment and what is not. So long as they speak the correct words and the enrolment is conduct by an officer, you could do the enrolment at Hooters with everyone wearing power-puff girls costumes and the enrolment itself would 100% valid.


That was my point to begin with, regardless of the order stating a CO shall decorate the room accordingly, much like other Oaths of Office etc., It is the act of swearing the oath that matters and is legally binding.

The last oath I swore, I read off a piece of paper and then signed said piece of paper.

Holds the same weight.
"The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.” ~General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC