Author Topic: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)  (Read 46116 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Haggis

  • "There ain't no hat badge on a helmet!"
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 47,765
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,443
  • "Oh, what a glorious sight, Warm-reekin, rich!"
Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« on: December 16, 2005, 10:13:15 »
More from the CDS's SITREP No. 3:

On 1 Feb 06, CANSOFCOM HQ will stand-up and JTF 2 and the JNBCD Coy will be transferred from DCDS to CANSOFCOM.  On the same date, 427 Sqn in Petawawa will be designated 427 Special Operations Aviation (SOA) Sqn, OPCOM to CANSOFCOM.  In addition, the interim capability of the Canadian Special Operations Regiment will be established in Petawawa in early 06 and the screening and initial training of its first company group will be completed by Aug 06, when the unit strength will reach approximately 250 personnel at IOC.  While CLS will give this unit a 'kick-start' by providing a formed company group for the training, this joint special operations unit will be recruited from across the regular and reserve components of the CF.   I consider it essential that we quickly establish these new capabilities to learn the lessons and gain the insights that will shape the future expansion of these CF assets;
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline MC

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 240
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 71
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2005, 11:25:05 »
More from the CDS's SITREP No. 3:

On 1 Feb 06, CANSOFCOM HQ will stand-up and JTF 2 and the JNBCD Coy will be transferred from DCDS to CANSOFCOM.  On the same date, 427 Sqn in Petawawa will be designated 427 Special Operations Aviation (SOA) Sqn, OPCOM to CANSOFCOM.  In addition, the interim capability of the Canadian Special Operations Regiment will be established in Petawawa in early 06 and the screening and initial training of its first company group will be completed by Aug 06, when the unit strength will reach approximately 250 personnel at IOC.  While CLS will give this unit a 'kick-start' by providing a formed company group for the training, this joint special operations unit will be recruited from across the regular and reserve components of the CF.   I consider it essential that we quickly establish these new capabilities to learn the lessons and gain the insights that will shape the future expansion of these CF assets;

good info, does anyone know if there will be any specific comm unit attached to CANSOFCOM, or CSOR in particular?   

Offline Cool Breeze

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 20
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 56
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2005, 13:33:46 »
Just wondering about something I saw (from a slideshow on the DIN I think or on the CDS website about CF Transformation) a while back from when this entire concept first came up. I remember reading about something called the "Special Operations Group" or SOG which will contain JTF2, JATF now CSOR, J NBCD Coy, Special Operations Aviation Squadron, a new SOF training unit, and new facilities. Pretty sure this was mentioned before (I forgot) but is CANSOFCOM the new name for SOG or is CANSOFCOM the overall command which will oversee SOG which in turn contains all these different units? Also anybody know anything about this new SOF training unit or about the new facilities (if it's safe to say with regards to OPSEC)?
You're coming in Broken and Stupid!

Offline George Wallace

  • Army.ca Fossil
  • *****
  • 430,330
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 31,445
  • Crewman
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2005, 13:35:33 »
Kev T

You haven't read all 17 pages of this thread, have you?
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.
Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline Cool Breeze

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 20
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 56
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2005, 15:01:43 »
Kev T

You haven't read all 17 pages of this thread, have you?

Most of it. Just that, like you said, it's 17 pages - kinda long - figured I could just get a simple answer. But I guess I'll just go back through the forum and see what I can find.  
You're coming in Broken and Stupid!

Offline Michael O'Leary

  • The moral high ground cannot be dominated by fire alone, it must be occupied to be claimed as held.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 307,360
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,642
    • The Regimental Rogue
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2005, 15:04:02 »
Most of it. Just that, like you said, it's 17 pages - kinda long - figured I could just get a simple answer. 

You did, it was "Please read the thread."

Offline Michael Dorosh

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • -1,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,769
  • Verloren ist nur, wer sich selbst aufgibt!
    • CANUCK
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2005, 15:14:10 »
You did, it was "Please read the thread."


Incidentally, what colour hat are you wearing right now? 
"So, how's your sister?" -Brigadeführer Hermann Fegelein
 
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com
 http://www.calgaryhighlanders.com

Offline Michael O'Leary

  • The moral high ground cannot be dominated by fire alone, it must be occupied to be claimed as held.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 307,360
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,642
    • The Regimental Rogue
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2005, 15:47:19 »
Incidentally, what colour hat are you wearing right now? 

Midnight blue wedge, red piping, regimental buttons, embroidered badge.

Offline Cool Breeze

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 20
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 56
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2005, 18:02:45 »

For the guy who mentioned SOG - SOG is CANSOFCOM - the reason for the change was, and I'm being totally serious, the french translation for SOG - which is GOS - which is french for testicles.
This came straight from CO of CANSOFCOM during a brief on Wednesday.

Thanks a lot for the answer and the information; interesting - and good - as to why the name was changed.
You're coming in Broken and Stupid!

Offline Freight

  • Member
  • ****
  • 620
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 221
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2006, 00:08:36 »
The official Canadian Special Operations Forces Command webpage is up - http://www.cansofcom.forces.gc.ca/en/index_e.asp
Life is not a dress rehearsal. Decide, then do.

Offline Penny

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 53
  • Ut incepit Fidelis sic permanet.
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2007, 06:04:51 »
 :army: Happy Birthday CANSOFCOM!  :salute:

Offline Just a Guy

  • Guest
  • *
  • -40
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2007, 22:59:31 »
Happy Birthday indeed !!!   Inveniemus

Offline luttrellfan

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 2,240
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 87
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2015, 09:33:55 »
I thought about starting a new thread, but upon finding this topic I thought I'd ask my question here:

I was hoping someone could tell me what it's like working for CANSOFCOM. More specifically as Support staff. What do they do in Garrison and can they go on deployment?

However, it would be cool to know more about the Assaulters, but I don't expect any answers about the Assaulter trade because of the secrecy, but it's worth a shot anyway.

I've been looking for testimonials about CANSOFCOM, but I can't seem to find anything. I noticed that the Army.ca staff are current/former Canadian soldiers: Did you guys have an opportunity to work there or did you know anyone who has?

Thanks
Man, if you knew how short life was and how fast it can be snatched away from you, you wouldn’t waste one second doing anything that didn’t bring you absolute enjoyment. Period!
-   Marcus Luttrell

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 438,080
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,556
    • The job.
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2015, 09:54:01 »
I've been looking for testimonials about CANSOFCOM, but I can't seem to find anything.

Some here,

CANSOFCOM
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?board=73.0

Get on the bus. Take a ride with us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2lSGnPl-ww

Offline George Wallace

  • Army.ca Fossil
  • *****
  • 430,330
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 31,445
  • Crewman
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2015, 10:03:53 »
I thought about starting a new thread, but upon finding this topic I thought I'd ask my question here:

I was hoping someone could tell me what it's like working for CANSOFCOM. More specifically as Support staff. What do they do in Garrison and can they go on deployment?

However, it would be cool to know more about the Assaulters, but I don't expect any answers about the Assaulter trade because of the secrecy, but it's worth a shot anyway.

I've been looking for testimonials about CANSOFCOM, but I can't seem to find anything. I noticed that the Army.ca staff are current/former Canadian soldiers: Did you guys have an opportunity to work there or did you know anyone who has?

Thanks

There is a quote from  Lao Tzu that you should know (or learn):

"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know."
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.
Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline luttrellfan

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 2,240
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 87
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2015, 10:51:33 »
Some here,

CANSOFCOM
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?board=73.0

Thanks mariomike, I'll check these out. :)

There is a quote from  Lao Tzu that you should know (or learn):

"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know."

It was worth a shot though.

It's similar to that saying "First rule of fight club, don't talk about fight club" (I hope that's how it goes).

Thanks anyway for the reply George Wallace.  :cheers:
Man, if you knew how short life was and how fast it can be snatched away from you, you wouldn’t waste one second doing anything that didn’t bring you absolute enjoyment. Period!
-   Marcus Luttrell

Offline Beadwindow 7

  • Life is cruel, and I am but a small slice of life
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 43,860
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,135
  • ZBM2
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2015, 11:00:45 »
I thought about starting a new thread, but upon finding this topic I thought I'd ask my question here:

I was hoping someone could tell me what it's like working for CANSOFCOM. More specifically as Support staff. What do they do in Garrison and can they go on deployment?

However, it would be cool to know more about the Assaulters, but I don't expect any answers about the Assaulter trade because of the secrecy, but it's worth a shot anyway.

I've been looking for testimonials about CANSOFCOM, but I can't seem to find anything. I noticed that the Army.ca staff are current/former Canadian soldiers: Did you guys have an opportunity to work there or did you know anyone who has?

Thanks

Fact is, you're not even in yet, and no one who works there is going to go out of their way to put reveal what day-to-day life is in any of the CANSOFCOM units other than what is already available.

Focus on getting your foot in the door, and then worry about where to go from there. Once you're in, if you're still interested in CANSOFCOM, hit up the recruiting cell or go to one of the frequent recruiting drives.
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline luttrellfan

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 2,240
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 87
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2015, 11:17:46 »
Fact is, you're not even in yet, and no one who works there is going to go out of their way to put reveal what day-to-day life is in any of the CANSOFCOM units other than what is already available.

Focus on getting your foot in the door, and then worry about where to go from there. Once you're in, if you're still interested in CANSOFCOM, hit up the recruiting cell or go to one of the frequent recruiting drives.

I'm not considering a career with CANSOFCOM, I'm just looking for info about it, that's all. :salute:
Man, if you knew how short life was and how fast it can be snatched away from you, you wouldn’t waste one second doing anything that didn’t bring you absolute enjoyment. Period!
-   Marcus Luttrell

Offline Beadwindow 7

  • Life is cruel, and I am but a small slice of life
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 43,860
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,135
  • ZBM2
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2015, 11:24:41 »
I'm not considering a career with CANSOFCOM, I'm just looking for info about it, that's all. :salute:

In that case, google search is about all you'll get.
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline luttrellfan

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 2,240
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 87
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2015, 11:30:53 »
In that case, google search is about all you'll get.

Alright, I'll google as much as I can then.

Thanks, I appreciate your help.



Man, if you knew how short life was and how fast it can be snatched away from you, you wouldn’t waste one second doing anything that didn’t bring you absolute enjoyment. Period!
-   Marcus Luttrell

Offline George Wallace

  • Army.ca Fossil
  • *****
  • 430,330
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 31,445
  • Crewman
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2015, 21:08:29 »
Video - Recruiting Video presentation shown to serving members to consider at their Information Sessions:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=782401888518458
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.
Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline DemiseZERO

  • Guest
  • *
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2
Questions About CANSOFCOM
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2016, 00:06:14 »
Hello!
I'm new to the Army.ca forum. I just had a few questions to ask and I thought this was the right place. I was hoping that someone could possibly tell me how the Canadian Special Forces go about recruiting. Do they come to your unit? And do you have to be recognized by an officer in order to get accepted or can you just apply/sign up somewhere? I understand you have to be in reg force for 2 years and reserves for 3 in order to apply.

Offline Teager

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 36,595
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 708
    • Canada For Victory
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2016, 19:44:36 »
If you Googled it you would have found your answer in seconds.

 http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/jobs-caf-unique/operations-special-forces-locate.page

Offline DemiseZERO

  • Guest
  • *
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2016, 21:39:39 »
If you Googled it you would have found your answer in seconds.

 http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/jobs-caf-unique/operations-special-forces-locate.page
I apologize if I came off as ignorant. I did Google it, I just needed a confirmation. Thank you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Old Sweat

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 203,120
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,415
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2017, 13:14:47 »
And for today's necro post, here is a CP story reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act in which the Deputy Commander claims that the members of CANSOFCOM face possible burn out.

Special forces operating on ‘borrowed time,’ need more troops: general
By The Canadian Press — Jul 4 2017
http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/special-forces-operating-on-borrowed-time-need-more-troops-general-1.3488314

OTTAWA — The deputy commander of Canada's special forces says his troops risk being run ragged after three years in Iraq, as well as several other lesser-known missions in other parts of the world.

Brig.-Gen. Peter Dawe says that's why the Liberal government's plan to add more than 600 additional soldiers to the elite force is not only welcome, but necessary.

Canada currently has about 2,000 special forces soldiers, many of whom Dawe says have done multiple tours through Iraq since first being sent to help fight the Islamic State group in August 2014.

But Canadian special forces have also been called upon to help train local forces facing extremist threats in different parts of Africa, Southeast Asia and Central America.

The demand doesn't appear to be letting up, as the government announced last week that Canadian soldiers will stay in Iraq for at least another two years.

Dawe says his troops continue to get the job done, but  have been operating "on borrowed time" and need the help to ensure they — and their families — don't suffer burnout.

- mod edit to add link -
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 21:00:28 by milnews.ca »

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 178,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,930
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2017, 13:23:43 »
And for today's necro post, here is a CP story reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act in which the Deputy Commander claims that the members of CANSOFCOM face possible burn out.

Special forces operating on ‘borrowed time,’ need more troops: general
By The Canadian Press — Jul 4 2017

OTTAWA — The deputy commander of Canada's special forces says his troops risk being run ragged after three years in Iraq, as well as several other lesser-known missions in other parts of the world.

Brig.-Gen. Peter Dawe says that's why the Liberal government's plan to add more than 600 additional soldiers to the elite force is not only welcome, but necessary.

Canada currently has about 2,000 special forces soldiers, many of whom Dawe says have done multiple tours through Iraq since first being sent to help fight the Islamic State group in August 2014.

But Canadian special forces have also been called upon to help train local forces facing extremist threats in different parts of Africa, Southeast Asia and Central America.

The demand doesn't appear to be letting up, as the government announced last week that Canadian soldiers will stay in Iraq for at least another two years.

Dawe says his troops continue to get the job done, but  have been operating "on borrowed time" and need the help to ensure they — and their families — don't suffer burnout.

We're likely to see the CAF, the Army part anyways, be skewed towards the SOF role as a result of circumstances we have no control over, much.

It will be important, to be successful, to make sure that the rest of the force is also beefed up and aligns to support them or else we could see a 'stress fracture' of some kind appear. Sneaky peekies need pay, boots and PERs too :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline CEDE NULLIS

  • New Member
  • **
  • 1,615
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 25
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2017, 13:53:52 »
I guess it also begs the question - do CANSOFCOM units really need to be the lead on all of the "train, advise, assist" jobs?

I know capacity is more of an issue with 9 infantry battalions, but surely some of the regular battalions could be involved in some way?

I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere but the British Army has started moving towards this model. The first cadre is underway now.

This from General Carter, CGS from a June 2016 conference at RUSI (https://rusi.org/sites/default/files/160628-lwc16-cgs-opening_address.pdf):

"But we have learned, I think, over the last three years that we need bespoke structures to do some of this overseas capacity building and hence the announcement in the SDSR of five Specialised Infantry Battalions. That title is a place-holder that may become something different in due course, but for the moment it is recognition that our conventional infantry achieved significantly more than might have been expect during Afghanistan and that we need to give them the opportunity to continue to deliver something well above the conventional task.

These battalions will be smaller, some 300 strong, and they will be designed to Train Advise Assist, and where appropriate to accompany indigenous forces, thus taking perhaps greater risk than conventional infantry might have to take and, of course, they will major on language and cultural expertise. They will be rolled out from next year through a series of pilots and the goal is that they should be able to deliver capacity building at a higher end than conventional infantry."

Food for thought anyways!

Offline Lightguns

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 24,970
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,022
  • I live for trout and deer
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2017, 14:26:08 »
Pretty soon everyone will be special forces (SF) at this rate.  Mission creep; you do not need to be SF to advise indigenous population soldiers in conventional warfare.  You need to be SF when you advise in ops designed for SF operational environments.  Teaching Iraqi army recruits to shoot straight, throw a grenade or drive a hummer does not require an operator.   Teaching irregular forces in a complex operational environment requires SF, teaching SF requires SF.
Done, 34 years, 43 days complete, got's me damn pension!

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 183,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,623
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2017, 14:58:46 »
I guess it also begs the question - do CANSOFCOM units really need to be the lead on all of the "train, advise, assist" jobs?

I know capacity is more of an issue with 9 infantry battalions, but surely some of the regular battalions could be involved in some way?

I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere but the British Army has started moving towards this model. The first cadre is underway now.

This from General Carter, CGS from a June 2016 conference at RUSI (https://rusi.org/sites/default/files/160628-lwc16-cgs-opening_address.pdf):

"But we have learned, I think, over the last three years that we need bespoke structures to do some of this overseas capacity building and hence the announcement in the SDSR of five Specialised Infantry Battalions. That title is a place-holder that may become something different in due course, but for the moment it is recognition that our conventional infantry achieved significantly more than might have been expect during Afghanistan and that we need to give them the opportunity to continue to deliver something well above the conventional task.

These battalions will be smaller, some 300 strong, and they will be designed to Train Advise Assist, and where appropriate to accompany indigenous forces, thus taking perhaps greater risk than conventional infantry might have to take and, of course, they will major on language and cultural expertise. They will be rolled out from next year through a series of pilots and the goal is that they should be able to deliver capacity building at a higher end than conventional infantry."

Food for thought anyways!

I think the issue with this is more of a political one;  *sending troops to Iraq*...the general population will see that as *doing what Trump wants us to do* and Afghanistan is still resident in some people's memories.  Right now, Joe and Jane Canuck seem ok with the Air Force there doing...*air force-y stuff* and our Special Forces there doing *mentoring*. 

We're not at war* with ISIS, remember?   ^-^
The only time you have "too much gas" is when you're on fire.

Online PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 882,930
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,321
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2017, 15:22:30 »
Pretty soon everyone will be special forces (SF) at this rate.  Mission creep; you do not need to be SF to advise indigenous population soldiers in conventional warfare.  You need to be SF when you advise in ops designed for SF operational environments.  Teaching Iraqi army recruits to shoot straight, throw a grenade or drive a hummer does not require an operator.   Teaching irregular forces in a complex operational environment requires SF, teaching SF requires SF.

The CAF is way ahead of you: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/peacekeeping-africa-sajjan-1.3712202

We only get a snippet of what missions are being completed by CANSOF, but based on that article the CDS and MND seem to be very in tune with providing conventional forces as trainers when the mission and specific AOR warrants it. What you're suggesting is that the government automatically just throws SOF at everything first, instead of the CDS doing a mission analysis and providing a force package that meets the government's intent. I strongly doubt that's the case, especially with the DComd stating his troops are being run ragged.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 183,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,623
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2017, 15:34:02 »
the DComd stating his troops are being run ragged.

It's been almost 3 years sustained now.  You can only rotate in/out what you have, and if what you have isn't enough to rest people, they get burnt.  The longer you sustain the more burnt people get and the harder it is for them to recharge.  This is reality in a small military with inadequate numbers of people and funding.
The only time you have "too much gas" is when you're on fire.

Online PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 882,930
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,321
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2017, 15:57:17 »
It's been almost 3 years sustained now.  You can only rotate in/out what you have, and if what you have isn't enough to rest people, they get burnt.  The longer you sustain the more burnt people get and the harder it is for them to recharge.  This is reality in a small military with inadequate numbers of people and funding.

Concur. Especially when you're talking about 10% deployed, 10% training and 10% having just returned. 30% of CANSOF if the 2,000 pers is accurate is tagged just for IMPACT.

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 186,920
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,924
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2017, 21:35:52 »
Rotate more of the Reg Army through CANSOFCOM positions?

Vandoos, PPCLI and RCDs doing a two year secondment to a CSOR Direct Action Company and then return to their Regiment?
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline Pickle Rick

  • Member
  • ****
  • 9,040
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 233
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2017, 21:46:54 »
Rotate more of the Reg Army through CANSOFCOM positions?

Vandoos, PPCLI and RCDs doing a two year secondment to a CSOR Direct Action Company and then return to their Regiment?

You can't just rotate NCMs/Officers in to CANSOF Assaulter/Operator roles like a regular posting. There still has to be a selection and Assaulter/Operator course to get members that have the abilities/skill sets/personality that suites SOF and the roles they are employed. Just because someone was a good Infantryman/Officer in a Battalion doesn't mean they would be succcessful as an CSOR Operator, or JTF2 Assaulter.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 22:27:48 by LightFighter »

Offline Humphrey Bogart

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 89,364
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,560
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2017, 22:41:37 »
Rotate more of the Reg Army through CANSOFCOM positions?

Vandoos, PPCLI and RCDs doing a two year secondment to a CSOR Direct Action Company and then return to their Regiment?

Hmmm sounds like the Airborne Regiment.   >:D

You can't just rotate NCMs/Officers in to CANSOF Assaulter/Operator roles like a regular posting. There still has to be a selection and Assaulter/Operator course to get members that have the abilities/skill sets/personality that suites SOF and the roles they are employed. Just because someone was a good Infantryman/Officer in a Battalion doesn't mean they would be succcessful as an CSOR Operator, or JTF2 Assaulter.

The problem with CSOR is they've gone beyond the initial training scope of the unit.  When CSOR was created, they took the bulk of 3 RCR Para Company, ran them through a crash course and said, you're now CSOR.  So what you're saying is factually incorrect, it's perfectly possible to take a normal Infantry Company, weed out a few laggards and build a Commando unit, how do you think the Paras/Royal Marines have successfully done it for years?

CSOR has become JTF2 lite because we've gone for the 90% solution when the 75% probably would have sufficed and also been cheaper.  I know a number of Operators who have been with CSOR since the beginning, they freely admit that they probably wouldn't crack the unit if they had to try out with today's selection standards.

What the CAF probably needs is a dedicated light infantry Battlegroup that's got a larger emphasis on physical fitness, field craft and individual soldier skills than your standard infantry battalion.  Think Recce Platoon but way bigger.

You could have a short selection focused on physical fitness followed by a short commando course, voila unit created. 

The elite of the French Army do it this way.  The FFL takes their most physically fit/keen legionnaires and generally send them to 2REP.  They then all do BPara followed by a "stage commando" which is dependent on which company they wind up in (2REP Companies all have different specialties - Mountain, Littoral, Desert, Urban, etc).  After a few years, if they're still keen, they can attempt to get in to the elite Groupe Commando Parachutistes (GCP) which is a Tier 2 SOF unit within the French Army (each unit within the parachute brigade has at least one GCP, 2REP has two).

Because Canada only ever really dabbles in anything we do, six pack of fighters here, sprinkling of Int guys there, some CIMIC here, few tanks over there.... we tend to choose the most expensive COA, not necessarily the best one for producing massive amounts of combat power.  Such is life in the Armed Forces of a declining middle power  8)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 23:18:19 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 178,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,930
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2017, 22:44:48 »
It's been almost 3 years sustained now.  You can only rotate in/out what you have, and if what you have isn't enough to rest people, they get burnt.  The longer you sustain the more burnt people get and the harder it is for them to recharge.  This is reality in a small military with inadequate numbers of people and funding.

I imagine that's what happens when you have ambitious commanders trying to "Keep up with the SOF Jones'".
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 186,920
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,924
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2017, 01:28:05 »
.... This is reality in a small military with inadequate numbers of people and funding.

Or is it reality in a military an army that is spending resources on anything other than that element that is regularly engaged?  20,000 candidates in 3 Brigades to keep 3 companies in CSOR supplied?  And you can't find enough physically fit, switched on specimens?




"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline devil39

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 8,835
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 570
  • Ex-Army Guy
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2017, 01:32:13 »
Pretty soon everyone will be special forces (SF) at this rate.  Mission creep; you do not need to be SF to advise indigenous population soldiers in conventional warfare.  You need to be SF when you advise in ops designed for SF operational environments.  Teaching Iraqi army recruits to shoot straight, throw a grenade or drive a hummer does not require an operator.   Teaching irregular forces in a complex operational environment requires SF, teaching SF requires SF.

The Canadian Army, with their pedantic and ridiculous (Micro) Managed (Un) Readiness Plan, have priced themselves out of business.  CANSOF makes a point of excelling in, and embracing ambiguity and filling empty space.  Is there any doubt why CANSOF continues to grow at the expense of the Canadian Army?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 08:24:17 by devil39 »

Offline Humphrey Bogart

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 89,364
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,560
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2017, 06:44:05 »
Or is it reality in a military an army that is spending resources on anything other than that element that is regularly engaged?  20,000 candidates in 3 Brigades to keep 3 companies in CSOR supplied?  And you can't find enough physically fit, switched on specimens?

We dabble Chris, it's all about dabbling in this Armed Force  ;D

The Canadian Army, with their pedantic and ridiculous (Micro) Managed (Un) Readiness Program, have priced themselves out of business.  CANSOF makes a point of excelling in, and embracing ambiguity and filling empty space.  Is there any doubt why CANSOF continues to grow at the expense of the Canadian Army?

So if we were to compare the CAF to a potluck?

Is CANSOFCOM the dude that brings pulled pork but only enough for like two people to have

Is the Army the jackass that shows up with 10 rotten veggie plates from the roadside truck stop

 ;D
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 06:47:32 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline Lightguns

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 24,970
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,022
  • I live for trout and deer
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2017, 07:52:00 »
My concern would be repeating the mistake that the Israelis made. They decided in the 50s that all infantry should be paratroopers, those that couldn't or wouldn't were sent to the mechanized infantry which was under funded to fund the paratroopers.  The result was that their infantry corps valued paratroopers travelling light to mechanized infantry and thus the mechanized infantry became a ******* that was transferred to the Armoured Corps who underfunded it and let it's training go because of the lessons of 67 when infantry rarely dismounted.  In 73 when the Arabs got ATGMs the armoured paid the price of not having a trained mechanized infantry.  The quick fix was to give the paratroopers half tracks from reserve infantry units whose troops were turned into labour for the engineers.   Thus wasting the vertical insertion capacity of a majority of the paratroopers.
Done, 34 years, 43 days complete, got's me damn pension!

Offline Humphrey Bogart

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 89,364
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,560
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2017, 08:14:22 »
My concern would be repeating the mistake that the Israelis made. They decided in the 50s that all infantry should be paratroopers, those that couldn't or wouldn't were sent to the mechanized infantry which was under funded to fund the paratroopers.  The result was that their infantry corps valued paratroopers travelling light to mechanized infantry and thus the mechanized infantry became a ******* that was transferred to the Armoured Corps who underfunded it and let it's training go because of the lessons of 67 when infantry rarely dismounted.  In 73 when the Arabs got ATGMs the armoured paid the price of not having a trained mechanized infantry.  The quick fix was to give the paratroopers half tracks from reserve infantry units whose troops were turned into labour for the engineers.   Thus wasting the vertical insertion capacity of a majority of the paratroopers.

Lightguns,

I think this is exactly what the Army is scared of.  It's part of the reason (not the only one) the Airborne was killed off.

I've said this before:

The Canadian Army's entire history is "mechanized warfare in Europe" we're comfortable with it.  The Army as an institutional is uncomfortable with commando forces because they take away from what the institution believes is its core raison d'être. 

A commando regiment would require giving it primacy as far as funding and picks of the litter go.  The Regiments and other Corps would never stand for it.

Any Commander that pushed for this would end up spending his entire command fighting institutional and regimental inertia. 

The Americans suffer the same problem.  I worked with a US Green Beret on exchange here, he noted that they have the exact same things happen down South, "want to attempt 75th Ranger or Special Forces?  Better hope you pass because the knives will be out if you don't".  He also noted that the Regimental component of our Army adds an additional complication that they don't suffer from.

There's a reason they've been slowly clawing back responsibility for everything SOF career related.  They've had to in order to advance the yard stick.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 08:19:51 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline Pickle Rick

  • Member
  • ****
  • 9,040
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 233
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2017, 10:24:12 »
The problem with CSOR is they've gone beyond the initial training scope of the unit.  When CSOR was created, they took the bulk of 3 RCR Para Company, ran them through a crash course and said, you're now CSOR.  So what you're saying is factually incorrect, it's perfectly possible to take a normal Infantry Company, weed out a few laggards and build a Commando unit

I understand how CSOR was created initially, however my above post was more in reference to the CSOR(including their selection and SFC) of today, not 2006.


You could have a short selection focused on physical fitness followed by a short commando course, voila unit created.

I don't disagree with this, however CSOR as it stands right now is more than this.


What the CAF probably needs is a dedicated light infantry Battlegroup that's got a larger emphasis on physical fitness, field craft and individual soldier skills than your standard infantry battalion.  Think Recce Platoon but way bigger.

So essentially, something in line with what the CAR/SSF were?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 10:36:00 by LightFighter »

Offline Humphrey Bogart

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 89,364
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,560
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2017, 10:52:56 »
I understand how CSOR was created initially, however my above post was more in reference to the CSOR(including their selection and SFC) of today, not 2006.


I don't disagree with this, however CSOR as it stands right now is more than this.


So essentially, something in line with what the CAR/SSF were?

Pretty much, sorry for coming across as condescending, I just don't like the political narrative the institution has created with respect to SOF/Army Missions and Tasks. 




Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 186,920
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,924
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2017, 11:33:21 »
....I just don't like the political narrative the institution has created ....

And thus it is with any institution.  It becomes institutionalised and exists to serve its members.  And if those members can separate themselves from the herd, ensuring jobs for life in the Corps of Tree Climbers*, so much the better.

* pace Field Marshall Slim.



I continue to believe that the problem should be addressed by separating the infantry from their vehicles at the battalion level.  That the vehicles be held by battalion, either in a separate company and/or as platoons attached to companies and that the training of the crews and the training of the infantry be handled separately.

Then you have 27 rifle coys available to work in a variety of environments and you have a basis for attaching signallers, FOOs, engineers and log types when the vehicles are not available - and there seems to be more occasions when the vehicles are not available than when they are.

You could also have 52 to 127 rifle coys available from the reserve force (assumes that all of the militia units are trained first and foremost in local defence skills).

"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline Lightguns

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 24,970
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,022
  • I live for trout and deer
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2017, 11:36:56 »
And thus it is with any institution.  It becomes institutionalised and exists to serve its members.  And if those members can separate themselves from the herd, ensuring jobs for life in the Corps of Tree Climbers*, so much the better.

* pace Field Marshall Slim.



I continue to believe that the problem should be addressed by separating the infantry from their vehicles at the battalion level.  That the vehicles be held by battalion, either in a separate company and/or as platoons attached to companies and that the training of the crews and the training of the infantry be handled separately.

Then you have 27 rifle coys available to work in a variety of environments and you have a basis for attaching signallers, FOOs, engineers and log types when the vehicles are not available - and there seems to be more occasions when the vehicles are not available than when they are.

You could also have 52 to 127 rifle coys available from the reserve force (assumes that all of the militia units are trained first and foremost in local defence skills).

Damn good manageable idea.  The only worry is a govt that says "you only need vehicles to train 3 coys at a time, we will buy the rest when we go to war......."
Done, 34 years, 43 days complete, got's me damn pension!

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 186,920
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,924
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2017, 11:47:45 »
Damn good manageable idea.  The only worry is a govt that says "you only need vehicles to train 3 coys at a time, we will buy the rest when we go to war......."

I agree that that is a possibility.

I also agree that the armoured corps could screw up by not adequately training the groundpounders assigned to it, as in Israel.

Or that the infantry corps could screw up by not adequately managing their vehicles and simultaneously neglecting both physical fitness and how to manage dismounted combat loads.

Or that the whole army could screw up by failing to adequately enforce existing rules and regulations and employ "elite" forces as dumping grounds for expendables.

All of those things are possible.

But all of those things are command failures that result from a lack of focus on the priority task - creating a force that can engage any and all foes, at any time and place, by day or by night, regardless of season and terrain, and regardless of political environment, and kill them - in accordance with Her Majesty's wishes.

Not just on a German plain that even the Germans won't defend any more.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline Ostrozac

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 26,925
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 653
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2017, 12:17:01 »
The Canadian Army's entire history is "mechanized warfare in Europe" we're comfortable with it.

I would argue that we are actually schizophrenic as an institution -- in addition to the heavy metal, force-on-force advocates that clearly designed my training at the Tactics School and write our doctrine,  there are also advocates of a constabulary Canadian Army that is not intended to fight large groups of uniformed modern enemies. This second group seems to heavily influence our equipment choice -- the TAPV, the choice of M777 with a soft skinned tractor instead of self propelled artillery, the divestment/cancellation of CCV and TUA, large battle group and brigade headquarters with no ability to manoeuvre.

That our doctrine and equipment don't match makes the Canadian Army an inherently nonsensical organization. It doesn't actually do what it says on the label, so whatever we do is inherently improvised. We're pretty good at improvisation, but it's still improvisation. Our Army isn't fit for purpose, because we can't actually articulate a purpose.

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 186,920
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,924
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2017, 13:36:07 »
Quote
More seriously, the big attacks that have taken place around Raqqa, one in particular, a surprise landing by helicopter, I was told by the top US commanders, would not have taken place if it hadn’t been for President Trump’s decision to delegate military authorities down to the level of command. I mean, under Obama that would have taken a couple weeks of White House meetings and then they still wouldn’t have made up their mind.

In this case there was not one meeting. They just said, General Townsend, the commander in Baghdad, you decide. And three days later, these Kurds who’d never seen an airplane or helicopter had been helicoptered across a lake for a surprise attack that is probably the most daring and decisive of the war.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/07/03/wps_david_ignatius_returns_from_syria_kurdish_fighters_cheer_at_mention_of_president_trumps_name.html

Quote
"In the battalion Command Post the radio remained on, but silent.  Suddenly HMS Intrepid, the LPD that carried the landing-craft that would take the men ashore, called and her operations officer asked to speak to the CO.  He was summoned from his cabin.

'Are you aware that in three hours time the Brigade is due to go ashore?' he was asked?  'Has the battalion broken out its first-line scales of ammunition yet?'  More importantly, 'Could the battalion make the deadline?'.....

....At 0200 hours on the 21st, the first landing-craft parties assembled in the Continental Lounge, weighed down with bergens, belt order and weapons.  In many respects the scene was like any battalion parachute training exercise....

...In one of the leading craft the men of B Company prepared to disembark, shouldering their bergens with difficulty.  Their boat stopped.  Though in fact C Company was now due ashore first, it took so long to beach their craft that B Company was first in

'Off troops!' called the coxswain.  Silence. No one moved. Again he called. A small figure scurried back along the railings to the stern. - 'There's still two to three feet of water.'

'I don't give a damn! They'll just have to get wet.  Get off!' the coxswain shouted again. Someone more attuned to a Para's mentality simply shouted 'Go!'  They went.

From: 2 Para Falklands: The Battalion at War.  Maj-Gen John Frost. Birk and Enright 1983. Chapter 3 - Preparing for Action.

Local infantry in an expedient helicopter assault.

Paras in an expedient amphibious assault.

And with never more than a sprinkling of Tree Climbers to organize affairs.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 13:39:24 by Chris Pook »
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 178,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,930
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2017, 14:40:29 »
I would argue that we are actually schizophrenic as an institution -- in addition to the heavy metal, force-on-force advocates that clearly designed my training at the Tactics School and write our doctrine,  there are also advocates of a constabulary Canadian Army that is not intended to fight large groups of uniformed modern enemies. This second group seems to heavily influence our equipment choice -- the TAPV, the choice of M777 with a soft skinned tractor instead of self propelled artillery, the divestment/cancellation of CCV and TUA, large battle group and brigade headquarters with no ability to manoeuvre.

That our doctrine and equipment don't match makes the Canadian Army an inherently nonsensical organization. It doesn't actually do what it says on the label, so whatever we do is inherently improvised. We're pretty good at improvisation, but it's still improvisation. Our Army isn't fit for purpose, because we can't actually articulate a purpose.

Our OMLTs in Afghanistan conducted operations that were formerly the province of Special Forces, and did very well.

Good militaries, led by skilled senior leaders and staffs, can do just about anything. To keep these skills alive we should practice re-roling from time to time to keep those 'flexibility' muscles alive. It's as much a mistake to designate 3 of our battalions as 'light battalions forever' as it is to designate the rest as 'mech battalions forever'.

Re-role to SOF battalions? Why not; depending on the task it should be relatively easy. If not, we aren't getting good value for our infantry $ investments.

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 186,920
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,924
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2017, 14:46:07 »
Our OMLTs in Afghanistan conducted operations that were formerly the province of Special Forces, and did very well.

Good militaries, led by skilled senior leaders and staffs, can do just about anything. To keep these skills alive we should practice re-roling from time to time to keep those 'flexibility' muscles alive. It's as much a mistake to designate 3 of our battalions as 'light battalions forever' as it is to designate the rest as 'mech battalions forever'.

Re-role to SOF battalions? Why not; depending on the task it should be relatively easy. If not, we aren't getting good value for our infantry $ investments.

Perhaps the OMLT/Trainer Type SOFs could hone their craft bringing Reserve Companies up to speed.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 228,276
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,129
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2017, 14:58:28 »
Perhaps the OMLT/Trainer Type SOFs could hone their craft bringing Reserve Companies up to speed.

Not until you can force reservists to train more regularly.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 186,920
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,924
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2017, 15:00:34 »
Not until you can force reservists to train more regularly.

Not until you can make the training in the time available more effective.....
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline MCG

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 192,555
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,533
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2017, 15:40:15 »
So if we were to compare the CAF to a potluck?

Is CANSOFCOM the dude that brings pulled pork but only enough for like two people to have

Is the Army the jackass that shows up with 10 rotten veggie plates from the roadside truck stop
If you want to make a potluck analogy, then imagine you are the host and you are reimbursing the cost of what anybody brings.  You ask "who can bring pulled pork for seven guys" to which Army replies "I'll bring pulled pork for 35 guys because I don't know how to reduce my recipe, and it goes best with my potato salad so you'll need to take a batch of that too" and CANSOF says "pulled pork for seven guys - I can do that."  You could then explain to Army that it would do the product to your standards and not its own, or save yourself the hassle and pick CANSOF.

...   Thus wasting the vertical insertion capacity of a majority of the paratroopers.
I suppose that is one conclusion you could reach.  But, given the other details of your story, would a more plausible conclusion have been that they had been wasting the majority of their infantry resources on parachuting when they really needed mechanized infantry for the wars they were going to fight?


Offline 1984

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 5,899
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 296
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2017, 15:54:26 »
If you want to make a potluck analogy, then imagine you are the host and you are reimbursing the cost of what anybody brings.  You ask "who can bring pulled pork for seven guys" to which Army replies "I'll bring pulled pork for 35 guys because I don't know how to reduce my recipe, and it goes best with my potato salad so you'll need to take a batch of that too" and CANSOF says "pulled pork for seven guys - I can do that."  You could then explain to Army that it would do the product to your standards and not its own, or save yourself the hassle and pick CANSOF.

To further the analogy the Army would bring 12 chefs to prepare the pork, 6 chefs to make the salad, 2 redundant chefs to serve it and 5 visits by the Command chefs to ensure they can add their name to the medal roster, while CANSOF would pick their best chef, actually trust him to do the job and send him to the party alone (with maybe some overwatch across the street).

Offline Kat Stevens

    Quando omni flunkus moritati.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 195,185
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,378
  • that's how we roll in redneck land
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2017, 15:54:50 »
Perhaps the OMLT/Trainer Type SOFs could hone their craft bringing Reserve Companies up to speed.

We can give them the code name Sisyphus!  I crack me up sometimes.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 186,920
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,924
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2017, 16:12:34 »
We can give them the code name Sisyphus!  I crack me up sometimes.

Sounds perfect!  Process, process, process.  ;D
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline CEDE NULLIS

  • New Member
  • **
  • 1,615
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 25
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2017, 17:39:29 »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/07/05/death-of-u-s-soldier-in-afghanistan-highlights-the-evolving-role-of-conventional-combat-troops-there/?utm_term=.05ac5f192d9c

Death of U.S. soldier in Afghanistan highlights the evolving role of conventional combat troops there
By Dan Lamothe July 5 at 3:11 PM

The death of a 19-year-old U.S. soldier in southern Afghanistan on Monday highlights the U.S. military’s evolving role in the war there under President Trump’s administration, after years of President Barack Obama restricting the use of conventional combat troops on the battlefield.

Army Pfc. Hansen B. Kirkpatrick, a mortarman with the 1st Armored Division’s 1st Stryker Brigade Combat Team, was killed by indirect fire while outside his base on a partnered operation with Afghan troops, said Navy Capt. Jeff Davis, a Pentagon spokesman. The attack, presumably by Taliban fighters, occurred in Helmand province’s Nawa district, and also caused injuries to two other U.S. soldiers who are expected to survive, Davis added.

Pfc. Hansen Bradee Kirkpatrick, 19, was killed July 3 in Afghanistan’s Helmand province by indirect fire during a partner operation alongside Afghan troops. (U.S. Army)
Kirkpatrick’s death is the fourth combat fatality this year of a conventional U.S. soldier in an operation outside a base. Obama relied nearly exclusively on Special Operations troops to advise Afghan troops outside bases in Afghanistan after tens of thousands of U.S. troops were withdrawn in 2014, but U.S. military officials have said that is unsustainable and that conventional forces are needed to carry out more missions.

Kirkpatrick, of Wasilla, Alaska, was described by his executive officer, Maj. James C. Bithorn, in a statement as a “caring, disciplined, and intelligent young soldier” who daily lived by his unit’s motto: “Deeds Not Words.” He had been in the unit about a year, Bithorn said.

“At a time when we remember the patriots who founded our nation in freedom, we are saddened by the loss of one of our comrades who was here protecting our freedom at home,” said Army Gen. John Nicholson, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan. “We will keep his family in our thoughts and prayers as we reflect on the sacrifice he and others have made to secure our freedoms and help make Afghanistan a better place.”

The death comes as Defense Secretary Jim Mattis prepares a strategy in Afghanistan that is expected to call for the U.S. military to return to a war footing with the Taliban and lift Obama-era restrictions that limited the mobility of U.S. military advisers on the battlefield. The Pentagon could add 3,000 to 5,000 U.S. troops to the 8,400 currently deployed and allow them to be closer to combat operations.

In Helmand province, considered the birthplace of the Taliban and the center of Afghanistan’s opium trade, nearly all U.S. forces were withdrawn in fall 2014 after years of fierce fighting led by U.S. Marines. The rapid deterioration of security in Helmand prompted U.S. commanders in February 2015 to rush a small, “expeditionary advising package” including U.S. troops to stop the downward spiral, and it has since expanded to include hundreds of conventional U.S. soldiers and Marines.

The previous U.S. military fatalities in Afghanistan this year included three conventional U.S. soldiers — Sgt. Eric M. Houck, 25; Sgt. William M. Bays, 29; and Cpl. Dillon C. Baldridge, 22 — who were members of the 101st Airborne Division. They were ambushed June 10 by an Afghan soldier that they were advising in eastern Afghanistan’s Nangahar district.

Two soldiers with the elite 75th Ranger Regiment, a Special Operations unit, were killed in a raid April 26. They were Sgt. Joshua Rodgers, 22, and Sgt. Cameron Thomas, 23.

The other U.S. service member killed in Afghanistan this year was Army Staff Sgt. Mark R. De Alencar, 37, a member of the 7th Special Forces Group. He died April 8 after his unit engaged in a firefight during an operation to counter the Islamic State’s faction based in Nangahar, U.S. military officials have said.


Online PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 882,930
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,321
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2017, 17:47:19 »
I'm not sure what your point is by posting that article.

Offline CEDE NULLIS

  • New Member
  • **
  • 1,615
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 25
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2017, 17:54:48 »
I'm not sure what your point is by posting that article.

I meant to add that it is related to the discussion above:

"Death of U.S. soldier in Afghanistan highlights the evolving role of conventional combat troops there"

Online PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 882,930
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,321
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2017, 18:08:21 »
What does it add? A bunch of conventional guys doing an OMLT task in Afghanistan were killed, so what. It also notes SOF had casualties doing similar, yet likely in higher risk/higher value missions. It doesn't prove either way what force is appropriate for that specific theatre, unless you've got some deeper analysis?

Offline CEDE NULLIS

  • New Member
  • **
  • 1,615
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 25
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2017, 18:31:25 »
What does it add? A bunch of conventional guys doing an OMLT task in Afghanistan were killed, so what. It also notes SOF had casualties doing similar, yet likely in higher risk/higher value missions. It doesn't prove either way what force is appropriate for that specific theatre, unless you've got some deeper analysis?

I'm not saying it proves anything. But I think it does speak to what we were talking about earlier in terms of what roles are suitable for SOF vs. line units. I'm not out to argue one way or the other but I think how different nations are approaching these "limited" engagements whether in Afghan, Iraq or Syria is interesting and relevant for the CF. At what point does it become "SF+" rather than just SF? 

It was mentioned earlier (in the Canadian context) that the political will to use SOF troops is higher than conventional troops due to public opinion. In regards to the incident in the article above, this is a relatively new development "after years of President Barack Obama restricting the use of conventional combat troops on the battlefield."


Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 186,920
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,924
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2017, 19:31:43 »
If I'm understanding the point I think Cede Nullis was referring more to the rules of engagement that each nation has with its press.  In Canada conventional forces are openly deployed and widely covered.  Special Forces are close held.

And that is why I was suggesting rotating individuals through a CSOR subunit on secondment from their parent units rather than deploying light companies. 

Once the Green is swapped for Tan invisibility occurs.  Or so it seems.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Online MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 56,870
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,698
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #62 on: July 05, 2017, 20:50:35 »
Quote
It was mentioned earlier (in the Canadian context) that the political will to use SOF troops is higher than conventional troops due to public opinion.

Perhaps because the media and "public opinion" are kept largely in the dark and thus less predictably negative reactions of one sort or another, for whatever reason or another.  Plus fewer political demands in Parliament for votes to approve missions.

How convenient but appears can stress default go-to forces.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 178,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,930
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2017, 01:37:37 »
Not until you can force reservists to train more regularly.

The British Army maintain 2 x SAS (Reserve) Regiments: http://www.army.mod.uk/specialforces/30603.aspx
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Humphrey Bogart

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 89,364
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,560
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2017, 06:58:40 »
The British Army maintain 2 x SAS (Reserve) Regiments: http://www.army.mod.uk/specialforces/30603.aspx

As does Australia, 1st Commando Regiment.  https://www.army.gov.au/our-people/units/special-operations-command/1st-commando-regiment

I've read that a substantial portion of this Regiment are Police Officers civvy side.  They were also deployed extensively to Afghanistan.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 07:06:17 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline Lightguns

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 24,970
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,022
  • I live for trout and deer
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2017, 07:06:15 »
As does Australia, 1st Commando Regiment.  https://www.army.gov.au/our-people/units/special-operations-command/1st-commando-regiment

I've read that a substantial portion of this Regiment are Police Officers civvy side.

That's an interesting idea, a reserve CSOR battalion with platoons in major cities, with non-RCMP police forces, and tuning their training cycle to police training cycles.  Mutually beneficial and one training standard.
Done, 34 years, 43 days complete, got's me damn pension!

Offline Humphrey Bogart

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 89,364
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,560
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2017, 07:14:11 »
That's an interesting idea, a reserve CSOR battalion with platoons in major cities, with non-RCMP police forces, and tuning their training cycle to police training cycles.  Mutually beneficial and one training standard.

You also get some Ex-CSOR or JTF2 guys that are retired but still might want to serve.  There is a whole thread over on the UK Site ARRSE about 1 Cdo Regiment.  Supposedly most of the Victoria and NSW State ERTs are part of 1 Cdo.  Military gets the benefit of getting highly trained individuals that also bring Real World experience to the table as opposed to just "exercising".

As I said, the unit was deployed extensively in Afghanistan and is a fully integrated component of Aus SOFCOMD

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 178,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,930
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2017, 10:22:18 »
You also get some Ex-CSOR or JTF2 guys that are retired but still might want to serve.  There is a whole thread over on the UK Site ARRSE about 1 Cdo Regiment.  Supposedly most of the Victoria and NSW State ERTs are part of 1 Cdo.  Military gets the benefit of getting highly trained individuals that also bring Real World experience to the table as opposed to just "exercising".

As I said, the unit was deployed extensively in Afghanistan and is a fully integrated component of Aus SOFCOMD

TA SAS had their issues in Afghanistan but, based on what I've heard, I think continue to be deployed on ops in various roles such as trainers etc Their 'general war' role remains the same, IIRC:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7575034/SAS-reservists-withdrawn-from-Afghan-front-line.html
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Humphrey Bogart

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 89,364
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,560
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2017, 11:39:35 »
TA SAS had their issues in Afghanistan but, based on what I've heard, I think continue to be deployed on ops in various roles such as trainers etc Their 'general war' role remains the same, IIRC:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7575034/SAS-reservists-withdrawn-from-Afghan-front-line.html

Who doesn't have issues?

Australia actually went through a similar issue this thread was initially brought back from the dead for.

In attempt to keep casualties low in both Iraq and Afghanistan and also because the Australian Government at the time though SOF casualties would be more acceptable politically, Australia would only allow Special Forces to conduct Offensive Operations in those theatres. As a result, they burned their SOF out, twice having to withdraw their SOTF's because of Operator fatigue.

We've said it ourselves in our SOF Truths:

- Humans are more important than Hardware.
- Quality is better than Quantity.
- Special Operations Forces cannot be mass produced.
- Competent Special Operations Forces cannot be created after emergencies occur.

Using SOF and only SOF as the default for everything is GOOD POLITICS...BAD POLICY
 

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 186,920
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,924
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2017, 11:53:13 »
One thing that I have noted with the Brits is that as the SAS and the SBS became more publicly acknowledged, and even as 1 Para was being converted to SAS Direct Action type roles, there seems to be a proliferation of new SOF organizations, like Special Reconnaissance and such that are publicly taking over jobs previously done by mist covered organisations like "The Det".  Once upon a time nobody knew the SAS existed.  Then they did and they didn't know the Det existed.  Then they did. 

I can't help but think this pushing things into the shadows doesn't really change much.  For example, putting more bodies into Tan berets is just going to increase the number of deployed iphones willing to send stories home to the girlfriend.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 178,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,930
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2017, 17:47:05 »
One thing that I have noted with the Brits is that as the SAS and the SBS became more publicly acknowledged, and even as 1 Para was being converted to SAS Direct Action type roles, there seems to be a proliferation of new SOF organizations, like Special Reconnaissance and such that are publicly taking over jobs previously done by mist covered organisations like "The Det".  Once upon a time nobody knew the SAS existed.  Then they did and they didn't know the Det existed.  Then they did. 

I can't help but think this pushing things into the shadows doesn't really change much.  For example, putting more bodies into Tan berets is just going to increase the number of deployed iphones willing to send stories home to the girlfriend.


.... and unauthorized books about B20 type f&ckups :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Haggis

  • "There ain't no hat badge on a helmet!"
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 47,765
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,443
  • "Oh, what a glorious sight, Warm-reekin, rich!"
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2017, 10:31:35 »
That's an interesting idea, a reserve CSOR battalion ...

This was tried in 4 Div (then LFCA), I believe, in the mid 1980's with the running of one serial of a "Commando Leader's Course".  That's as far as it went.

CANSOFCOM does maintain it's own PRL where ex-Reg F CANSOF members can go once they end their Reg F time.
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 178,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,930
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2017, 09:46:55 »
This was tried in 4 Div (then LFCA), I believe, in the mid 1980's with the running of one serial of a "Commando Leader's Course".  That's as far as it went.

CANSOFCOM does maintain it's own PRL where ex-Reg F CANSOF members can go once they end their Reg F time.

This could probably work if it was heavily reinforced with a Reg F CSOR cadre/ training team and connected directly to CSOR vs. commanded through the various Mo-litia Bdes. It would probably have to be run like a temp agency though, with various individuals heading off at different times to top up units for specific tasks/ ops based on their levels of training and other aspects of 'life readiness'.

(And I think Danjanou knows how that 'Canadian Commando Course' experiment went... :) )
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon