Author Topic: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)  (Read 50739 times)

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Offline FSTO

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2014, 22:53:30 »
That is a god-damn crying shame. Anyone with half a brain would have seen this coming.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2014, 23:03:19 »
That is a god-damn crying shame. Anyone with half a brain would have seen this coming.

That's not even the biggest crime!

The government paid Irving millions of dollars as part of an economic stimulation package to dismantle their former shipyard in Saint John, NB so they could turn it into a wallboard factory and now we are paying them again to re-establish a shipbuilding industry in Halifax.  Tell me how that makes sense  :facepalm:


Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2014, 23:31:30 »
That's not even the biggest crime!

The government paid Irving millions of dollars as part of an economic stimulation package to dismantle their former shipyard in Saint John, NB so they could turn it into a wallboard factory and now we are paying them again to re-establish a shipbuilding industry in Halifax.  Tell me how that makes sense  :facepalm:

Wait... So the contracts awarded in 2011 are only going being cutting steel in 2015/16 for ships that will take 5 years to build? What the hell is taking so long? They have designs already?
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2014, 23:43:57 »
Wait... So the contracts awarded in 2011 are only going being cutting steel in 2015/16 for ships that will take 5 years to build? What the hell is taking so long? They have designs already?

Well we have no capacity to build ships in Canada anymore because the Chretien government paid Irving to close the Saint John shipyard down in the early 2000's which was the largest shipyard in Canada and the only one capable of building large warships.  The problem is that now that we want to build ships again, we now have no capacity (because we closed the yards down) so we need to rebuild the capacity, hence the 10-15 year time frame to actually build ships... the Yards in Halifax and Vancouver were selected for the NSPS back in 2011 with full knowledge that they did not have the capacity to build the ships we wanted but that the government was going to pay to have the yards upgraded so that we would have the capacity in the future.

edit:

Mil Davie is actually the largest yard in Canada but hasn't really been up and running since the end of the Frigate Program. 
Basically, we closed a shipyard down and paid to have it decommissioned only to turn around 10 years later and say "Wait a second!  We really needed that after all!"
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 23:54:28 by RoyalDrew »

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2014, 00:04:31 »
This is basically why we cannot have nice things.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2014, 05:34:34 »
It wasn't just Jean Chrétien; and, arguably, his government was not the most cavalier with things like defence and ship building.

(The notion that governments can use their programmes to create jobs in regions is very, very old. There are some very reputable historians who will tell you that e.g. Elizabeth I had her popular 'base' in the West Country and that she spent money on shipbuilding there to reward them.)

For many years the main aim of the national shipbuilding strategy (that's a sad misuse of the word strategy) was to ensure that Quebec got 25%+ of all contracts. It created expectations and encouraged fat, idle management.

I don't know to what degree shipbuilding is a viable industry in North America, or even in Western Europe, without massive, and generally unproductive government support. We are, essentially, whenever we build a warship or coastal ferry or cruise liner, running a welfare programme for less than well educated people in selected seaport towns. And jobs for those people is a 'holy grail' of modern, democratic politics as countries try to make the transition from low skill, high wage, coal fired, metal bending economies to something else.

And, by the way, there were naval officers (RAdm Ed Healey comes to mind) and senior civil servants (Bob Fowler) and even a few elected politicians who understood the problems (the plural matters) and proposed solutions (again, plural) ~ not always or even usually in concert and not always the same solutions ~ but the political imperatives always won.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2014, 10:18:58 »
The Westcoast yards are a bit leaner as we never really on the list for many goodies. They are good for doing repairs and such, but they need new builds every so often to renew Capital assets so they can compete. Not getting the ferry contracts certainly did not help the yards here and had as much to do with the current Provincial governments anti-union stance as it did costs. The politicization of the Fast ferry contract and the  politicization of their disposal did not help either.

Offline Schindler's Lift

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2014, 16:46:26 »
Wait... So the contracts awarded in 2011 are only going being cutting steel in 2015/16 for ships that will take 5 years to build? What the hell is taking so long? They have designs already?

It was my understanding that things were even worse since before they can start to cut anything they still need to settle on a final design since anything they had now was still in the concept stage.  I'm sure though there is a sailor out there who can shed even further light on the subject.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2014, 17:07:59 »
I thought I heard on the news the engineering/design contract went overseas (Denmark perhaps?).
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Offline MSEng314

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2014, 17:25:07 »
How is this even news? Iroquois is scheduled to decommission soon anyways, sounds like they just want to make the Navy look bad...

Offline Schindler's Lift

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2014, 17:39:18 »
How is this even news? Iroquois is scheduled to decommission soon anyways, sounds like they just want to make the Navy look bad...

I don't think the reporter "wanted to make the Navy look bad".  The system does a great job of that as it is otherwise ships like the Iroquois would have been replaced long before they developed stress cracks.  Making a story out of nothing is one thing but I don't see this issue as that.  Imagine the article though if the damage hadn't been observed when it was and during the next big storm the escort ships are saying "Where did the bridge of the Iroquois go?"  As it stands now though, our older ships due for replacement but still serviceable have been turned into old ships that can't be used in rough seas.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2014, 19:02:12 »
This article is only half right; these are minor cracks that aren't in the primary structure and aren't limiting the ships operations.  Pretty common to get cracking, particularly after 42 years of bending back and forth.  Depending where it is and whether or not it's growing, you don't necessarily have to do anything other then just regularly monitor it.

The rest is surprisingly accurate though; wonder who had a beer with a reporter? :cheers:

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2014, 19:13:15 »
I thought I heard on the news the engineering/design contract went overseas (Denmark perhaps?).

AORs will be Berlin class ships as QUEENSTON class here in Canada. As for combat vessels... Speculation is they'll be similar if not identical to Norway's SVALBARD class Arctic patrol ship, and Denmark's Iver Huitfeldt class air defence frigate; but no design has been selected.
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Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2014, 20:15:33 »
From what I understand the source of the cracking has come from when during TRUMP the Que yard scalloped cut pieces from their keel weakening it to allow the installation of the water compensated fuel system. These cracks have existed since and have been continuously monitored and repaired. if there is now a operational limitation placed on the max sea state the ship is allowed to operate in then its pretty serious. I suspect this may be a temporary restriction until an comprehensive assessment is done and repairs may be made.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2014, 20:25:08 »
AORs will be Berlin class ships as QUEENSTON class here in Canada. As for combat vessels... Speculation is they'll be similar if not identical to Norway's SVALBARD class Arctic patrol ship, and Denmark's Iver Huitfeldt class air defence frigate; but no design has been selected.

Roger.  I recall seeing a CTV or CBC NS news report that Irving had contracted out or got the go-ahead to contract out some design work to an overseas company;  IRCC it was late last fall?
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Offline donaldk

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2014, 20:41:45 »
Hull condition surveys are an ongoing process over a vessels life, and with IRO at 42 years old this should come to no surprise that hull issues will come up  (in this case a a 48M PM hull survey routine is still awaiting completion).  With the pay-off of the IROQUOIS expected sometime early 2015, the balance must be struck with how much does the gov't want to get out of this asset before divestment and amount of resources/financials (taking into consideration current fiscal restraints) required to have the platform ready to sail for the navy's requirements until divestment.

I am curious though who set off the media for get this out, but one can only hold the cat in the bag on this for only so long, considering most of the goodies on this are in DRMIS.  I am only speculating... sometimes a ship not sailing leads to a FOIA request from local/national media outets.

Offline Schindler's Lift

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2014, 20:54:32 »
When FOIA requests only cost the person making the request the princely sum of $5....there are plenty that get submitted just on the hopes of "uncovering" something.   Seems like a fair return on their investment.  $5 and a bit of time to submit each request while the department involved spends a month or so rounding up, vetting and sending off the info.  Our tax dollars in action.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2014, 10:23:58 »
The $5 only covers up to 5 hrs of searching and about 2" of copying. After that the price goes up according to a schedule.

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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2014, 12:19:03 »
A/OPS, May 2013:

Quote
... the design of Canada's new ships is based upon a Norwegian vessel whose design Ottawa has already bought for just $5 million.
mi-norwegian-ship300

The KV Svalbard, an offshore patrol vessel belonging to the Norwegian Coast Guard, is the parent design for Canada's Arctic offshore patrol ships. It was built for about one-third of what Canada is paying just to design, not build, a similar ship. (Marcus Bengtsson/Wikipedia)

The Norwegian ship, the Svalbard, was designed and built for less than $100 million in 2002...

Although Irving will manage the design project in Nova Scotia, it has subcontracted the actual production of final blueprints to a Danish firm, OMT. Seventy Danish ship architects will work on those.

The job of designing the systems integration is going to Lockheed Martin and the propulsion system will be designed by General Electric, both U.S. companies...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/shipbuilding-contract-holds-250m-mystery-1.1300816

Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2014, 12:24:03 »
CSCs--gov't still deciding on how to do the design:

Quote
Procurement Models for Surface Combatants
http://www.frontline-defence.com/Defence/index_archives.php?page=2110

Mark
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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2014, 18:01:36 »
From what I understand the source of the cracking has come from when during TRUMP the Que yard scalloped cut pieces from their keel weakening it to allow the installation of the water compensated fuel system. These cracks have existed since and have been continuously monitored and repaired. if there is now a operational limitation placed on the max sea state the ship is allowed to operate in then its pretty serious. I suspect this may be a temporary restriction until an comprehensive assessment is done and repairs may be made.

Not sure where that rumour started but that's simply not true.  Steel that cycles through bending fatigues and eventually forms cracks.  Ships are made of steel and are always bending.  43 year old hulls have lots of fatigue, so cracks happen.  Some cracks (like weather deck or main strucutral girders) are show stoppers.  Some minor cracks in secondary/tertiary structure aren't.  As long as they aren't growing, you don't necessarily have to do anything other then keep an eye on them.  Really not a big deal or all that unusual in an old vessel.  Or a newer vessel.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2014, 08:19:20 »
A/OPS, May 2013:

Mark
Ottawa

Thanks, I think that is what I was referring to.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2014, 13:09:15 »
Not sure where that rumour started but that's simply not true.  Steel that cycles through bending fatigues and eventually forms cracks.  Ships are made of steel and are always bending.  43 year old hulls have lots of fatigue, so cracks happen.  Some cracks (like weather deck or main strucutral girders) are show stoppers.  Some minor cracks in secondary/tertiary structure aren't.  As long as they aren't growing, you don't necessarily have to do anything other then keep an eye on them.  Really not a big deal or all that unusual in an old vessel.  Or a newer vessel.

Apparently the Swedish high speed cats had welders on board to keep up with the cracking for the first few years.

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2014, 16:11:25 »
Not sure where that rumour started but that's simply not true.  Steel that cycles through bending fatigues and eventually forms cracks.  Ships are made of steel and are always bending.  43 year old hulls have lots of fatigue, so cracks happen.  Some cracks (like weather deck or main structural girders) are show stoppers.  Some minor cracks in secondary/tertiary structure aren't.  As long as they aren't growing, you don't necessarily have to do anything other then keep an eye on them.  Really not a big deal or all that unusual in an old vessel.  Or a newer vessel.

It was told to me by a Chief Hull tech no was on ATH during TRUMP, I guess he may be lying. Its not unusual for cracking in superstructures or hulls to occur. It occurred to the steamers quite frequently.
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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2014, 17:53:54 »
Ive seen hull stress monitoring systems installed on older vessels, presumably for the same reason, metal fatigue. Its just another result of an aging fleet.
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