Author Topic: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)  (Read 51516 times)

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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2014, 17:58:15 »
It was told to me by a Chief Hull tech no was on ATH during TRUMP, I guess he may be lying. Its not unusual for cracking in superstructures or hulls to occur. It occurred to the steamers quite frequently.

It's not that there wasn't structural work done during TRUMP, but have done a lot of work in the last five years that involved looking at the construction/TRUMP drawings of the uptakes specifically, and the changes in the uptakes started about two feet off the deck.  There were some modifications to the exhaust trunking below that relating to the cruise engine mods, but that was pretty minor (relatively). 

Maybe a case of rumour becoming legend becoming facts after long enough (like AFFF being corrosive)?

Have heard from a few people that in their final years on a few steamers you could see the sky through various cracks sometimes when the ship was in rough seas, so we're still quite a bit better off then that!


Offline Colin P

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2014, 13:08:15 »
Hmm without knowing what, where and how much they found, hard to tell, but looks at least like it will be a drydock job

HMCS Iroquois indefinitely sidelined after rust found in warship’s hull  http://www.news1130.com/2014/05/07/hmcs-iroquois-indefinitely-sidelined-after-rust-found-in-warships-hull/

HALIFAX – The Royal Canadian Navy has lost the use of one of its warships on the East Coast after rust was found in its hull.

HMCS Iroquois was tied up in Halifax about two weeks ago and will not sail until a complete assessment is done on the air defence vessel.

Cmdr. Jay Harwood says it’s not clear how long that will take, but it leaves the fleet further diminished as more than a dozen of its vessels undergo regular maintenance, modernization and repairs.

Harwood says the rust problems were found in a machinery space on the vessel in mid-April during a routine inspection ordered after cracks were discovered on the 42-year-old ship in February.

He says the navy will have to decide whether to spend money to repair the aging command and control destroyer, which is due to be retired in a few years.

This latest problem has forced the navy to juggle some of its assets and pull Iroquois out of scheduled operations, including one last week in Norfolk, Va.

Note to readers: This is a corrected story. A previous version said HMCS Iroquois was 40 years old.

Offline MilEME09

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2014, 16:21:59 »
I wonder how safe Canadians would feel if they realized over half our navy is in dry dock for repairs/upgrades and not keeping our waters safe.
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jollyjacktar

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2014, 17:46:58 »
I wonder how safe Canadians would feel if they realized over half our navy is in dry dock for repairs/upgrades and not keeping our waters safe.

I'm willing to bet that many of our fellow citizens aren't even aware we have a navy and there are those who do who couldn't care less.

Offline NavyHopeful

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2014, 06:06:50 »
I wonder how safe Canadians would feel if they realized over half our navy is in dry dock for repairs/upgrades and not keeping our waters safe.

Most of my old high school friends think that the Navy exists to assist the Coast Guard in SAR and FishPats...  Only when they see TOR and REG in the news for drug busts do they say "Oh, we do that too?"   :facepalm:

If only they knew what we are supposed to be here for...

Offline Schindler's Lift

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Re: Cracks In HMCS Iroquois Will Limit Warship’s Operations
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2014, 10:22:00 »
It wasn't all that long ago there were articles questioning why we even needed a Navy and an Air Force of the (small) size we do when we can just buy drones to bo the job cheaper.  For the average John Q Public the fact ships are down for repairs will, I suspect, cause more concern over the money that must be spent to repair then over any lack of operational capability.

Offline MilEME09

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Rust on HMCS Iroquois may leave her unable to go out to sea
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2014, 11:39:57 »
Quote
Rusting HMCS Iroquois remains tied up: 'she will not sail'

Alison Auld, The Canadian Press
Published Monday, June 23, 2014 7:13AM EDT

HALIFAX -- The Royal Canadian Navy has decided to keep one of its few destroyers tied up after assessing a string of rust patches on its hull and concluding it may not be safe to send out to sea.

Capt. Peter Ryan said naval engineers and architects reviewed the corrosion in an area that stretches between a couple of decks on HMCS Iroquois, which was sidelined in April after the rust was detected.

They are now trying to determine if the aging ship should be repaired or retired, leaving the navy fleet further diminished as more than a dozen other vessels undergo regular maintenance, modernization or repairs.

"They are looking at what they can consider for possible repair options ... (and) whether it can be fixed," Ryan said in an interview.

"Until they can figure out what to do for repair options, she will not sail."

He said the destroyer will be used for training until the navy determines its fate.

Images and video taken by divers and obtained by The Canadian Press through access to information legislation show more than a half dozen rust spots on the exterior of the ship and inside in an area behind the solid ballast. Many appear to be a few inches in length.

Another photo from the mezzanine deck indicates an average loss of thickness in the plate of up to 30 per cent and cautions that there is an "allowable loss" of only 20 per cent, according to the Naval Architecture and Material Engineering Non-Destructive Ultrasonic Inspection Report.

Ryan could not say how extensive the corrosion is or where it's exactly located, but said officials can't guarantee the ship or crew's safety so it won't leave the dock. He also couldn't say whether the navy has had to reassign other ships or withdraw from operations as a result of the problems with HMCS Iroquois.

Underwater video shows a swath of rust spots that appear to start about 0.6 metres below the waterline.

Cmdr. Jay Harwood, who oversees the fleet's engineering state, said in May that fixing the 42-year-old ship before it is due to be decommissioned might prove too expensive.

Analysts have said the loss removes a vital asset and certain capabilities from the fleet. The destroyers serve as command and control vessels, but are also the only naval ships that have long-range air defence missile systems.

With HMCS Iroquois unavailable and its sister ship, HMCS Algonquin, undergoing repairs from an accident in February, the navy has only one destroyer at the ready.

The navy is also without many of its Halifax-class frigates, which are undergoing a lengthy modernization program to add radar and command and control systems, while upgrading radar and missile capabilities.

This latest problem comes after fatigue cracks were found on HMCS Iroquois in February when the ship was in Boston. An engineering team travelled to the U.S. to inspect it and deemed it safe to return to its home port in Halifax.

Officials acknowledge that the rust problem could lead to the early decommissioning of the ship, which is due to be retired in the next few years and before any successor ships are in place.


http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/rusting-hmcs-iroquois-remains-tied-up-she-will-not-sail-1.1881404
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Last sailpast rumour quashed
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2014, 09:43:07 »
There WAS a rumour ....This from the Halifax Shipping News blog:
Quote
I have heard a rumour that HMCS Iroquois' final sail past will occur tomorrow (today 7 Nov 2014). Due to cracks in her structure, she is due to be de-commisioned, and has already be de-amunitioned.

If anyone has more details, Please email Info@halifaxshippingnews.ca

UPDATE: It appears there will be no sailpast. A Call to QHM revelealed they had no knowledge of it, and a former crew member emailed to say he talked to a current crew member who said there will not be one.
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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #58 on: November 26, 2014, 09:27:13 »
This from the Shipfax shipping news blog out of Halifax ....
Quote
Although a paying off sail past is not in the cards for HMCS Iroquois - the government does not want to call undue notice the occasion of her decommissioning - there will be a dockside ceremony sometime this winter. Among the invited guests are members of La Corporation du site historique maritime de Sorel-Tracy. That group hopes to provide a new home for Iroquois once it is retired.

With the support of the city, and the promise of berth#2 on the Richelieu River, the group is looking to have the ship in place and open to the public in 2017 for the 375th anniversary of the founding of the town.
The ambitious plan would have as much as possible of the ship's naval equipment intact (but disarmed) so that visitors could see it in its ready state ....

A bit more, from earlier this month, from the back-yard media (in Google English - original in French here):
Quote
The chances of reducing the air defense destroyer HMCS Iroquois in Sorel-Tracy look better than ever.

It is believed that Martin Germain, one of the project sponsors, after meeting the second ranking officer of the Royal Canadian Navy, Admiral against Gilles Couturier.

Guest Friends of goodwill to talk to more than 200 people of challenges faced by the Canadian Navy, the latter did not fail to mention that the Iroquois, built in 1970 at Marine Industries Ltd., is currently docked in Halifax since we had to repair a crack in its superstructure.

"The useful life of such a boat is 25 to 30 years. The more it will seagoing more hull will be affected. It is now time to remove this well-built ship class to replace them with very different combat ships. "

2017

Recall that Messrs. Guy Durand, Denis St-Martin, René Cournoyer and Martin Germain formed the "Corporation of Maritime Historic Site Sorel-Tracy" that would acquiring the boat.

They want and highlight a witness ship shipbuilding and industrial heritage Sorel and the work of thousands of Sorel assigned to shipbuilding over the years.

In early October, they got also a unanimous commitment of council Sorelois the destroyer will be moored at one of the municipal wharf - Wharf # 2 or Richelieu dock ....
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jollyjacktar

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2014, 11:49:58 »
There is talk that she would be towed over to NAD as a floating part source for ATH.

Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2014, 17:03:20 »
She already is!
"No ******* ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb ******* die for his"
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jollyjacktar

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2014, 17:12:26 »
That will make turning her into a museum a bit more challenging then if they rob all the bits to keep ATH in the game.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2014, 19:18:22 »
That will make turning her into a museum a bit more challenging then if they rob all the bits to keep ATH in the game.

Due to past experiences with other ships, plus ITAR issues, that's not even in the cards.  She can't float if fully demilitarized.

jollyjacktar

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2014, 20:56:51 »
I was thinking more along the lines of the engineering side of the house not the combat, which isn't my part ship, at any rate.

Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2014, 04:57:28 »
Understood but if it comes down to it, the priority is to maintain ATH's operational state with one of only two 'parts stores'. An engine or generator missing here or there will mean nothing to a potential community looking at her as a Museum piece though provided the structure is sound.
I was on board yesterday and a seemingly pretty happy bunch although much uncertainty on the role of uniformed personnel beyond May. From a DC/engineering perspective, until further notice the ship's mandate is 'safe alongside' and enough crew will be retained to meet this. The side bar role is also a manning pool for ATH sailing shortages. As former IRO class sailors endorse/requalify to HAL class and the tempo and RegF manning of KIN class accelerates, trained IRO class personnel (current and fresh) will be hard to come by.
"No ******* ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb ******* die for his"
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jollyjacktar

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2014, 05:15:19 »
I would have expected no less when it comes to ATH.  I was more surprised at the talk of turning IRO into a floating museum somewhere.  Not sure if she would have been the best choice.  I would have preferred a steamer saved as they were special in their day.

As for the happy faces.  Who wouldn't be, with a sea pay "shore bilet"?   ;)

Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2014, 08:06:49 »
I am pretty certain SDA will cease 'shortly'.
Plus, yesterday was the world famous "IROQUOIS burger" Wednesday so that was part of the reason for all the smiles! (And, NO! That is not why I was on board!)

Interesting roads ahead as this one will be quite different from any divestments done in the past. Hoping to know a little more in the New Year.
"No ******* ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb ******* die for his"
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Offline Colin P

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2014, 10:16:05 »
It cost around 1.2 million to strip potential pcb contaminated wire from HMCS Annapolis and then another million to remove the insulation that contained various odds and ends. That was to make her clean enough to sink.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2014, 11:27:07 »
It cost around 1.2 million to strip potential pcb contaminated wire from HMCS Annapolis and then another million to remove the insulation that contained various odds and ends. That was to make her clean enough to sink.

Honest question here, would a ship destined to be a museum need the same level of remediation as one intended to serve as an artificial reef?

Regards
G2G

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2014, 11:53:38 »
Nowhere near.

There would be very limited remediation as far as "dangerous" products are concerned. So long as you don't touch the insulation (and the museum would likely want the ship to remain insulated) there are no concerns with it. As for the wiring and other electrical that can contain PCB, again the museum would likely want to keep them. As far as petroleum based products go, you would likely simply empty the tanks and then, without a cleanup, refill them with either water and fuel stabilizer or (for oil) with sorbent granular material and just "fix" any residue oil product in the tank for ever.

The most complex portion of the work , which would be done in any event of disposal, is removing all ammunition and piece of gear that can be considered classified technology.

Offline Colin P

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2014, 14:02:24 »
The problem will be that the museum will last about 20 years and then the costs of keeping it floating on in safe enough condition will overwhelm them and then the government will have to deal with it. That's not to say it should not happen, but the government should have a long term plan to assist in upkeep and if they want to spend money to keep a shipyard afloat, maintaining heritage vessels is a decent idea and great training tool.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #71 on: November 27, 2014, 17:13:42 »
You can keep it afloat, at great cost, of course (as in the case of HMCS SACKVILLE and HAIDA) or you can "land" the ship, as was done with HMCS BRAS D'OR and HMCS/S ONONDAGA.

Marine Industries has been closed of a long time now in Sorel. As a result, they have lots of wharfage that is not otherwise required. So it would be fairly easy to "land" the IROQUOIS by tying her alongside on the Richelieu River side (which is what they intend to do, if I recall the wharf numbers correctly), erect a complete cement wall all a around, plastify the outside of the hull and displace the water with packed sand. Voila, it is now earth bound and all that nasty hull maintenance / danger from shipboard fires / jittery museum goers are taken care of once and for all at a fairly cheap cost.

You can even cut out side entrances in the hull to make for much easier access to the various decks from external properly "civilian" sized stairs.

Offline quadrapiper

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #72 on: November 27, 2014, 18:48:57 »
The problem will be that the museum will last about 20 years and then the costs of keeping it floating on in safe enough condition will overwhelm them and then the government will have to deal with it. That's not to say it should not happen, but the government should have a long term plan to assist in upkeep and if they want to spend money to keep a shipyard afloat, maintaining heritage vessels is a decent idea and great training tool.
From my corner of the service, a "preserved" vessel would be of great value to sea cadet corps.

Would there be any value to the Naval Reserve in such a vessel?

Offline bLUE fOX

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #73 on: November 27, 2014, 19:18:30 »
While with RCSCC LION in Hamilton, we made regular use of HMCS HAIDA which was docked right across the road behind HMCS STAR. To the best of my knowledge, the reserves made little if any use of it. I would think that the reserves would get the same use out of such a ship as cadets. Limited damage control training, practicing line handling and light jack stays, and maybe some other basic shipboard functions. My experience with HAIDA, SACKVILLE and BRAS D'OR is that engines are either disabled or missing so even as a dock side stationary engine room trainer, I wouldn't think IROQUOIS would be of much use.
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Offline Occam

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Re: HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)
« Reply #74 on: November 27, 2014, 20:29:38 »
The most complex portion of the work , which would be done in any event of disposal, is removing all ammunition and piece of gear that can be considered classified technology.

I'm pretty sure she's already been deammunitioned.  Removing classified gear would be pretty easy, actually.  Now getting rid of anything that's Controlled Goods, however...that's going to be pretty painful and will leave a lot of spaces empty.