Author Topic: "Toronto 18" terrorists: Arrest/court/aftermath  (Read 108014 times)

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2006, 10:10:47 »
Hard to explain away 3 tons of ammonium nitrate.The multicultural apologists don't do the public any favors by down playing the threat to society posed by radical islam.

Offline Technoviking

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2006, 10:16:46 »
He's not a terrorist, come on, he's a Canadian citizen," Chand said of his brother. "The people that were arrested are good people. They go to the mosque. They go to school, go to college."
How, pray tell, should someone act if they are planning on blowing up CSIS HQ in Toronto (or whatever)?  Should they run around with bomb drawings under their arms, ranting on about how tough it is being Moslem, how everyone thinks you've got a bomb making kit in your bathroom, and then complain when the authorities break your bomb making kit in your bathroom?  Do they run around yelling "ALLAH AKHBAR" everytime a Canadian Soldier is killed in Afghanistan? 
NO
THey will go to school.  They will go to a mosque/temple/church (as applicable).  Don't people get it?  I mean, check out TV next time they catch some freaky murderer.  What will people say? "He seemed like such a nice neighbour!"  Hey, if it were easy to pick out the next OBL or mass murderer, then alot of crimes just wouldn't happen!
So, there I was....

Offline pronto

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2006, 13:29:31 »
What are they smoking? About 3 Tonnes of Ammonium Nitrate... >:D

What's the answer to THAT Mr. Hindy? O I know - it is good explosive 'cause it was collected by these "good, mosque-going, college-attending dudes"

...Still waiting for the Lawyer to address the need for that much fertilizer...
questions on guns, recce or construction engineering - let me know...

Offline Technoviking

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2006, 13:35:09 »
"In court, Mr. Galati was accompanied by Aly Hindy, a Toronto imam and friend of the highly-controversial Khadr family, who have well-established connections to al-Qaeda.

Mr. Hindy, a controverisial Iman, leads an Islamic centre in Scarborough, said he knew several of the accused because they prayed at his mosque but said they were not terrorists.

So, Mr Hindy, friend of the Khadr's, is vouching for these guys?  Isn't that like Martin Bormann vouching for a person accused of being a nazi?
So, there I was....

Offline GAP

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2006, 09:19:31 »
Aside from the conspiracy, what bothers me the most about this whole issue is the nay-saying and excuse mongering by the muslim community and most left wingers. Denying you have a problem, does not solve it.

We are in for interesting times, as I predict there will more rhetoric and action on the part of muslims. We have the laws, but not the gonads to enforce them, to have people with these views removed. They have voided their right to live in Canada.
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Offline Octavianus

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2006, 09:31:53 »
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front


Well, well, look who's back in the limelight....



A gathering of familiar faces at Brampton courthouse


COLIN FREEZE

From Monday's Globe and Mail

BRAMPTON — Canada's hard-line Muslims can seem a pretty tight-knit group at times. As a long line of completely new terrorism suspects were being shuffled in and out of the prisoner's box, there were many familiar faces looking on in the courtroom.

In the visitors' gallery Saturday morning sat Zaynab Khadr, the sister of Abdullah Khadr, who is fighting extradition to the United States. He is accused of supplying weapons to al-Qaeda.

Ms. Khadr, who once expressed an admiration for suicide bombers on national TV, sat looking at the prisoner's box, speaking Arabic with Aly Hindy, a controversial fundamentalist preacher.

Having had many of their own run-ins with the RCMP and CSIS, Ms. Khadr and Mr. Hindy were intent on doing what they could for the families of the newly accused.

One such man was Tariq Abdelhaleem.

"Hello," he said, looking shattered beyond words, as a reporter approached. "It's my son."

This was stunning. I had gotten to know Mr. Abdelhaleem last year, after he issued a controversial fatwa against too much innovation in Islam.

The imam was worried that Toronto's Muslims were not sticking to scripture and were also becoming unmindful of the real problems in the world.

"Our Muslim brothers and sisters are dying in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechnya and other parts of the world," he had written at the time on his website.

"The puppet systems that are in power in the Islamic world are collaborating with the Crusaders and Zionists to keep the ummah [Muslim community] under oppression."

I wrote an article on the fatwa and quoted a more moderate Muslim leader as saying that the decree was "stupid." Mr. Abdelhaleem was stung by this. A few months later, he invited me over for tea and cookies, and we had a pleasant chat about religion in his Mississauga home.

It was in the basement that I met his son Shareef, and several of his friends, all young professionals eager to express their own views to a non-Muslim writer. They, too, were outraged by the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. And they wanted to discuss racial profiling.

They were all upset, but they never appeared extremist. Now, one year later, 30-year-old Shareef Abdelhaleem was chained to other suspects, his anxious eyes meeting his father's wounded gaze in court.

The RCMP officials had just announced they had seized three tonnes of ammonium nitrate fertilizer; they said that "homegrown" Canadian Muslims wanted to turn the material into a bomb and attack targets in Canada.

The RCMP and CSIS have never put together an al-Qaeda-like case of this magnitude before. In the courtroom, veteran federal prosecutor Jim Leising seemed eager to proceed, if somewhat reserved.

Defence lawyer Rocco Galati, who has worked on a number of terrorism cases, said he is unimpressed by this one. "Big whoop-de-do," said Mr. Galati outside court, referring to the government evidence.

"I've seen a lot of fertilizer over the last eight years," he joked.

There is a contingent of people who will always believe Muslims are more often victims of conspiracies than perpetrators. Mr. Galati is in this camp. And certainly Mr. Hindy, the controversial leader of the Salaheddin Islamic Centre, feels that way too.

"Are we now the enemy within? We completely reject that," Mr. Hindy said, outside court. The imam said that because "Afghanistan is closed now," CSIS and the RCMP are targeting young Canadian Muslims, just so that departments can justify their budgets.

"This is to keep George W. Bush happy, that's all," he scoffed.

Mr. Hindy said he knew about half of the defendants, mostly from the times when they used to pray at his mosque. He conceded there might be one or two troublemakers in the group, but predicted most of the accused would be acquitted.

More worrisome, the imam said, was the direction Canada is headed. Devout Muslims, he said, are at the moment more free to practise religion in Canada than in states like Egypt that crack down on fundamentalists. Mr. Hindy is afraid authorities here will round up people indiscriminately.

As for Zaynab Khadr, she wasn't saying much. The family's exploits in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Canada are by now legendary. Her father, a friend of Osama bin Laden, was killed by the Pakistani government. Her eldest brother was arrested last year by the RCMP as the United States seeks his extradition on terrorism charges. Her second-youngest brother is awaiting murder charges in the legal limbo that is Guantanamo Bay.

In court, Ms. Khadr seemed content to look after two other young women also wearing full, black head-to-toe Islamic dress. One of them yelped as a teenager appeared in the prisoner's box, pointing out he was without his prescription eyewear. The judge said he'd try to make sure the suspect would get his glasses. And then he vowed that every suspect would get a Koran, as consistent with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Like everyone else who entered the courtroom, Ms. Khadr and her friends left under the gaze of a gauntlet of assault-rifle-toting police officers, and were swarmed by reporters who asked them questions.

"Don't talk," Ms. Khadr yelled to one suspect's brother as she and her friend made their way to her Green 1997 Pontiac minivan.

And with that, they drove away.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2006, 10:14:57 »
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front

A gathering of familiar faces at Brampton courthouse


COLIN FREEZE
This was stunning. I had gotten to know Mr. Abdelhaleem last year, after he issued a controversial fatwa against too much innovation in Islam.

The imam was worried that Toronto's Muslims were not sticking to scripture and were also becoming unmindful of the real problems in the world.

"Our Muslim brothers and sisters are dying in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechnya and other parts of the world," he had written at the time on his website.

"The puppet systems that are in power in the Islamic world are collaborating with the Crusaders and Zionists to keep the ummah [Muslim community] under oppression."

I wrote an article on the fatwa and quoted a more moderate Muslim leader as saying that the decree was "stupid." Mr. Abdelhaleem was stung by this. A few months later, he invited me over for tea and cookies, and we had a pleasant chat about religion in his Mississauga home.

No one seems to find this a little unsettling?  If Moderate Islamic states have leaders who these Fundamentalists don't like, then they are considered "Puppets of the Americans" and deserve to be attacked or removed violently.  No one can read this in between the lines of these statements?  Not only are the Western ideals a threat to them, but so are any that don't follow their strict Radical beliefs.

And Colin Freeze can't see this?  Amazing!




http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front

It was in the basement that I met his son Shareef, and several of his friends, all young professionals eager to express their own views to a non-Muslim writer. They, too, were outraged by the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. And they wanted to discuss racial profiling.

They were all upset, but they never appeared extremist. Now, one year later, 30-year-old Shareef Abdelhaleem was chained to other suspects, his anxious eyes meeting his father's wounded gaze in court.

The RCMP officials had just announced they had seized three tonnes of ammonium nitrate fertilizer; they said that "homegrown" Canadian Muslims wanted to turn the material into a bomb and attack targets in Canada.

The RCMP and CSIS have never put together an al-Qaeda-like case of this magnitude before.  

Colin Freeze really doesn't appear to be very astute, does he?



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
"I've seen a lot of fertilizer over the last eight years," he joked.


I don't know if he were referring to his profession or just didn't realize the Timothy McVeigh used only a third of that amount in his bomb.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
There is a contingent of people who will always believe Muslims are more often victims of conspiracies than perpetrators. Mr. Galati is in this camp. And certainly Mr. Hindy, the controversial leader of the Salaheddin Islamic Centre, feels that way too.
Play the old "We are victims" card.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
"This is to keep George W. Bush happy, that's all," he scoffed.
Play the "anti-American" card.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
Mr. Hindy said he knew about half of the defendants, mostly from the times when they used to pray at his mosque. He conceded there might be one or two troublemakers in the group, but predicted most of the accused would be acquitted.
Seems we have links to Hindy and Khadr starting to become public.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
More worrisome, the imam said, was the direction Canada is headed. Devout Muslims, he said, are at the moment more free to practise religion in Canada than in states like Egypt that crack down on fundamentalists. Mr. Hindy is afraid authorities here will round up people indiscriminately.
Isn't Canada a great country to allow you these freedoms, and how do you repay us?  Perhaps you would like to return to a "Puppet of the Americans" style State and face their Civil Liberties and Legal Systems?  Time for us to seriously look at our Legal System's corruption of the Law and strictly begin a campaign to Deport these types of 'criminals'.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
As for Zaynab Khadr, she wasn't saying much. The family's exploits in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Canada are by now legendary. Her father, a friend of Osama bin Laden, was killed by the Pakistani government. Her eldest brother was arrested last year by the RCMP as the United States seeks his extradition on terrorism charges. Her second-youngest brother is awaiting murder charges in the legal limbo that is Guantanamo Bay.

In court, Ms. Khadr seemed content to look after two other young women also wearing full, black head-to-toe Islamic dress. One of them yelped as a teenager appeared in the prisoner's box, pointing out he was without his prescription eyewear. The judge said he'd try to make sure the suspect would get his glasses. And then he vowed that every suspect would get a Koran, as consistent with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Further evidence that we are "too soft on these types of criminal"; too soft on serious criminals of all kinds.   Yet, we will come down heavily on the minor infractions, and inhumanly Deport productive contributors to Canada's society on lesser Immigration technicalities.
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Offline Gunnar

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2006, 10:36:25 »
Quote
And then he vowed that every suspect would get a Koran, as consistent with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Life, liberty and security of person...oh yes, and free Korans, provided by the state. 

How is the freedom to practice your religion the same as getting a Koran in prison?  Bring your own damn books, or ask your family to provide them.  Why are we giving you books?
If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism --Thomas Sowell

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Offline Thucydides

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2006, 11:55:53 »
Outstanding article in the Toronto Star, of all places:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1149371435807

Quote
Take a good look at what's going on
Jun. 5, 2006. 11:01 AM
ROSIE DIMANNO
CITY COLUMNIST

Be sickened. Be frightened. Be angry. But don't you dare be shocked.

Unless you've been had.

Either way, the time has long passed for domestic bliss born of ignorance, virtue and wilful denial.

For everyone who thought Canada could cower in a corner of the planet, unnoticed and unthreatened by evil men — even when the most menacing of a very bad lot has twice referenced this country as a target for attack — take a good, hard look at what's been presented and what's being alleged.

Three tonnes of ammonium nitrate, thrice the amount used by Timothy McVeigh to demolish a government building in Oklahoma City. Cellphone detonators. Switches. Computer hard drive. A 9-mm pistol. Soldering gun. Camouflage gear.

And 17 males — born here or reared here, certainly settled here, some of them little more than children — formally remanded yesterday on terrorism-related charges.

If the accusations prove true, this isn't just slumming with jihad. For the benighted who claim that the war on terrorism is terrorism: Here is your war.

Could be, of course, all a wild misunderstanding, colossal police blundering, systemic racism, nothing more sinister than a barbeque in the country.

Could be the thing it appears, though — evidence of an enemy within.

And not just those accused who allegedly plotted to blow things up in southern Ontario — maybe the CN Tower, perchance the baseball stadium; most likely venues of large gathering, because the objective of terrorism, which this may or may not be, isn't merely to slaughter but to bludgeon the living with fear, to silhouette in gore one's utter vulnerability.

follow the link to read the entire article.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Wizard of OZ

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2006, 11:58:54 »
Was just on the NEWS here, the three tons of fertilizer that the "terrorist" bought, was bought from an undercover RCMP officer.  Hmm hand in cookie jar holding cookie.

I just finished reading all the post in the thread and agree with almost all of them in the fact that

1)  All of them should be deported, jailed or removed after conviction.

2)  I have no doubt that some lawyers and judges will get all tree huggy peace love and joy for everyone on this issue and say that they were treated harshly and that because they missed some after school special on how to share they should be set free. As this could not possible be their fault, so it must be the rest of Canadas

3) This has little or nothing to do with the CF being in Afghanistan, if it did it would have come sooner, and they would have used it as an excuse.

4) This incident does not mean all Arabs/Muslims are bad.  And shame on anyone who uses this to attack them as a whole.  Or their religion.  

5) You can brainwash someone so far, but if they continue to carry out what they know to be wrong then they are just as guilty.  We have seen this before.  History does repeat itself.

I just hope that the Canadian public does wake up and smell the coffee, Terrorist are alive and well in Canada and they don't care who they kill Innocent or infidel.
You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war. Albert Einstein

The Americans will always do the right thing... After they've exhausted all the alternatives.Winston Churchill

Offline Wizard of OZ

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2006, 12:56:35 »
bin Laden himself was extremely wealthy, no?

As for someone else's comments on deporting these terrorists - well, they were born here so where would you send them? And if you did send them abroad, wouldn't they be more likely to be terrorists again than if they were here in a cell?

I hear Afghanistan has some really nice cells and I am sure they would be able to find a copy of the Koran there.

Just cause we deport them does not mean that they have to be freed.

I have a hard time believing that if a Biker was placed in a jail cell and wanted a copy of the bible he would get one.
You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war. Albert Einstein

The Americans will always do the right thing... After they've exhausted all the alternatives.Winston Churchill

Offline Wizard of OZ

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2006, 13:05:21 »
Was it a sting?

Were the alleged terrorists captured in the country's biggest ever terrorist bust infiltrated by agents and later entrapped? Does it matter?

"Constitutionally it sure does," said terrorism expert Dave Harris last night.

He understands the emotion of a public -- who can't fathom fellow Canucks using three tonnes of explosives against them. "From a human point (it doesn't matter)," said Harris, of Insignis Strategic Research in Ottawa.

People are fed up, shocked that Canadians could ever plan something so heinous against its own state. And they want tough justice.

It's not that simple in our country. This will be sorted out legally and with a microscope of the Charter of Freedoms-wise lawyers who will scan through every paragraph of every document after receiving them through disclosure.

"Defence lawyers are entitled to the entrapment defence under Section 8 of the Criminal Code," Harris said.

And they will use it. It's their best defence. It has worked before. There will be plenty of debate of the interpretation of that act in the years to come.

This was not talked about when 10 of the country's highest ranking police authorities stood before an equally large media throng -- highlighting the successful break up of an alleged gang of Muslim-Canadian youth alleged to be organizing an "al-Qaida inspired" monster plot to wreak havoc.

One of the lawyers called it a "show." Harris disagrees, saying the operation was the most important action these cops could have ever taken. He hopes there are more to come.

"We need to ram the message home that Canada is intimately involved and engaged in international terrorism and we better start taking action if we want to avoid chaos."

But Ottawa lawyer Michael Edelson tells Sun Media any suspects who walk free because of improper tactics will cause a loss of confidence in the spy system. Harris, a former CSIS employee, has more faith in Canadian intelligence.

"It looks like a competent, well managed effort," he said, adding it will take a lot more than a bunch of people crying foul about methods to get out of these serious charges.

As long as law enforcement "has reasonable suspicions" and acts in "good faith," they can employ approaches that can have suspects charged criminally.

But Edelson argues there have been cases where all the suspects have ended up being cleared.

It makes one wonder are convictions or acquittals on terrorism charges two years from now in a court of law as important as stopping a murderous terrorist plot now?

Wonder how the 9/11 families would answer that?

It's in the legal arena now. This is the reality of a politically correct, socially conscious, fair, just and democratic society.

While law enforcement was celebrating thwarting a massive, systematic attack on several southern Ontario targets, these kinds of questions, if not allegations, were being thrown around by lawyers all weekend -- many of whom were complaining about an overzealous Canadian intelligence world.

It just goes to show catching bad guys is never easy. Convicting the smart and organized among them is often 10 times harder.

The public may never know what kind of crushing horror we missed out on thanks to the joint policing effort. Perhaps --when it comes to thinking about the potential carnage, and just how the authorities were able to prevent it -- some things are better left unknown.
By JOE WARMINGTON



You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war. Albert Einstein

The Americans will always do the right thing... After they've exhausted all the alternatives.Winston Churchill

Offline geo

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2006, 13:10:02 »
Wonder how the 9/11 families would answer that?

While I sympathyse with 9/11 families, they live in another country and, to an extent, they don't matter.
Chimo!

Offline Bograt

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2006, 13:12:15 »
Wonder how the 9/11 families would answer that?

While I sympathyse with 9/11 families, they live in another country and, to an extent, they don't matter.

Symatics, I realize, but IIRC over 80 Canadians died in New York that day.
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Offline Technoviking

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Re: National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2006, 13:19:06 »
While I sympathyse with 9/11 families, they live in another country and, to an extent, they don't matter.
Garvin calls an emphatic Bravo Sierra on that one.
Here's just ONE who's family lives in this very country called  :cdn:
Joseph Collison
Check him out on the web
http://www.terroristattack.com/messages.php?id=522

So, there I was....

Offline Thucydides

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Re: National security forces arrest 17 in Toronto raids
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2006, 13:52:03 »
Lord how the BS is flowing already.

The perps were identified starting in 2002 due to their activities on certain radical web sites, long befor we stepped up our mission in Afghanistan.

Entrapment occurs when the police plant an idea which would not otherwise have occured to the perp; since they were plotting away in 2002, it seems clear that "entrapment" is a very huge streach.

As for those calling for deportment; these people are Canadians (although obviously not citizens in any real sense of the word). Perhaps a special holding facility could be built on Hans Island to accomodate them. If they want a warmer climate, I understand there is an appropriate place in Cuba run by the USA, and perhaps Castro could be persuaded to house them on the "Island of Pines", which unlike Gitmo has real documentation of torture and abuse (not that the press wants to spend any time investigating that.......)
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Redbeaver

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Re: National security forces arrest 17 in Toronto raids
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2006, 13:58:22 »
It looks like entrapment vs. sting operation with the (fake) ammonium nitrate is going to be their main defense and probably the big public debate.  Although these guys have been under surveillance for 2 years so I'm sure there is a mountain of evidence against them and I don't doubt the RCMP's ability to mount a proper and legal sting operation.

It sucks that the Muslim community is coming under fire for this, I haven't seen them up in arms to defend these guys at all.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 14:01:58 by Redbeaver »

Offline Wizard of OZ

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Re: National security forces arrest 17 in Toronto raids
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2006, 15:15:13 »
Lord how the BS is flowing already.

The perps were identified starting in 2002 due to their activities on certain radical web sites, long befor we stepped up our mission in Afghanistan.

Entrapment occurs when the police plant an idea which would not otherwise have occured to the perp; since they were plotting away in 2002, it seems clear that "entrapment" is a very huge streach.

As for those calling for deportment; these people are Canadians (although obviously not citizens in any real sense of the word). Perhaps a special holding facility could be built on Hans Island to accomodate them. If they want a warmer climate, I understand there is an appropriate place in Cuba run by the USA, and perhaps Castro could be persuaded to house them on the "Island of Pines", which unlike Gitmo has real documentation of torture and abuse (not that the press wants to spend any time investigating that.......)

Why would the press want to report on that.  It would not do anything to make the war on terror any better or worse. ::)

Secondly,  Of course the BS is flying, any lawyer worth his salts has to start the conspiracy/brainwash/us vs them/ smoke screen early and maybe he can get them declared insane or temporary insanity over a 2 year period.  It is sad the lawyers are jumping all over this to defend these people but anything to get their face on television/ name in print/ voice on the radio.  This is not to say they are guilty I will let a court decide that.  But by thunder if they get off on a technicality or because they felt overwhelmed with the state of the world S@IT I am going to loss it.  It is hard enough for the police to do the job being asked of them to stop these people to have them walk off Scott free on some bull S&it loop hole.

If the cops did their job right (which I am hoping happened, 2 yr gig some big bucks there you know this was micro-managed) And the Crown does their job we should all breath easy.  The only problem may lie in the judge could be some bleeding heart liberal who thinks that it may be better if these poor people go back to their own community to get rehabilitation to learn to adjust to "Western Culture"

Their has to be a fine line between multicultural and respecting the laws of a set society.  But this is a grey area for another day.

Majoor hit it right on.  Hans Island sounds nice especially around Jan with a tent for prison, no guards just a tent and a fishing poll.



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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: National security forces arrest 17 in Toronto raids
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2006, 15:17:44 »
Excerpts from two good pieces today:

1) Christie Blatchford in the Globe (full text not online);
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v4/sub/MarketingPage?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FLAC.20060605.BLATCH05%2FTPStory%2FTPComment%2FOntario%2F&ord=9078737&brand=theglobeandmail&redirect_reason=2&denial_reasons=none&force_login=false

'Ignoring the biggest elephant in the room

I drove back from yesterday's news conference at the Islamic Foundation of Toronto in the northeastern part of the city, but honestly, I could have just as easily floated home in the sea of horse manure [elephant dung, surely - MC] emanating from the building.

So frequent were the bald reassurances that faith and religion had nothing -- nothing, you understand -- to do with the alleged homegrown terrorist plot recently busted open by Canadian police and security forces, that for a few minutes afterward, I wondered if perhaps it was a vile lie of the mainstream press or a fiction of my own demented brain that the 17 accused young men are all, well, Muslims.

But no. I have checked. They are all Muslims...

Barely two days after the nighttime raids...the great Canadian self-delusion machine was up and running at full throttle...

Such is the state of ignoring the biggest, fattest elephant in the room in this country that at one point Chief Blair actually bragged -- this in answer to a question from the floor -- "I would remind you that there was not one single reference made by law enforcement to Muslim or Muslim community" at the big post-arrest news conference on Saturday.

Indeed, law-enforcement types there took enormous pains to say just the opposite: The arrested men are from a diverse variety of backgrounds ("They're students, they're employed, they're unemployed" one official said, which is akin to running the gamut from A to oh, C); they come from all parts of Canadian society; blah, blah, blah...

But what came clear at that meeting yesterday [at the Islamic Foundation], which was an odd mix of community venting and news conference, is that many of those people who went to the microphone to ask questions, and some of those who answered them from the podium, are far more concerned about a possible anti-Muslim backlash to the arrests than they are about the allegations that a whole whack of their young people were bent on blowing something up in the city; that they are generally worked up about Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan and the Americans in Iraq, and that even as they talk about Islam being a religion of peace, they do not sound or appear particularly peaceable... '

2) Lorne Gunter in the National Post--the nonsense that our mission in Afstan caused "homegrown' terrorism;
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=de6578ef-177b-41e8-9cd1-9092c8c3afa5

'It was only a matter of time
...
We could let Muslims practise sharia law within their own community and guarantee Muslim students and employees set-aside space at schools and work for their five-times-daily prayers, and still the jihadis among us would conspire to buy explosives and plot to blow up Canadian targets until we all agreed to live under sharia law and worship Allah at dawn, mid-morning, noon, mid-afternoon and dusk.

Radical Muslims are not interested in what we will let them do. "You do your thing and I'll do mine" is a Western notion. Jihadis are motivated by a desire to make everyone else in the world bow to Muhammad, too...

The response of too much of officialdom to last week's revelations will be to call for redoubled efforts on behalf of pluralism: new anti-racism ad campaigns, more money for multicultural groups and festivals, new curricula in schools, more cultural sensitivity training for judges, politicians and bureaucrats...

Meanwhile, others will call for the withdrawal of Canadian troops from Afghanistan. They will argue the presence of our soldiers doing war in a Muslim nation is behind the uncovered plot.

According to police and intelligence sources, though, the alleged terror cell began its scheming and planning more than two years ago, when our only presence in Afghanistan was a 700-strong contingent patrolling the relatively peaceful capital, Kabul, as part of a NATO peacekeeping force. In other words, this cell allegedly began scoping out Canadian targets, training and assembling its materials long before our current combat-oriented mission in Kandahar against al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

Does our current mission upset jihadis? Undoubtedly. But they allegedly were mad enough to blow up innocent Canadian civilians even before our mission changed. If our troops were not at war with Muslims, something else would be the provocation. It doesn't take much...'

Mark
Ottawa




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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: National security forces arrest 17 in Toronto raids
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2006, 17:03:38 »
Some of those arrested had contact with people in the States that have been picked up on terrorism charges as well as those being watched in Britian, Bosnia, etc.
Apparently infamous for his one liners.
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Re: National security forces arrest 17 in Toronto raids
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2006, 19:11:12 »
I could be wrong but the fertilizer found is used in farming and controlled by the gov.

Believe it or not, it is not restricted but plans were in place to do so:

http://www.cfi.ca/files/press_releases/on_guard_05-06-16_FINAL.PDF

I guess the days of making fireworks in the darkroom are over.

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Re: National security forces arrest 17 in Toronto raids
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2006, 06:41:07 »
Am I the only one worried about all the information warfare that has been so effectively waged on us over the past few days?  Where is the counter attack?
Now, not all moslems are terrorists: that goes without saying.  But, the day after they find all sorts of "stuff" and arrest some 17 people (who just happen to be moslem), the headlines aren't about the plot, likely targets, how it was brought down, etc, but the worry that moslems might (MIGHT!!!) feel "disenfranchised" by this whole bugga-boo.  To me, that is total ignorance.  As Blatchford wrote (I think it was her), we are ignoring the elephant.
Here is an analogy.  Suppose there is a serial rapist attacking Montreal.  How many women are on that list of suspects?  None.  Why?  Because women (generally) don't rape or collude to rape (some famous examples notwithstanding).  Still, the statement that "men rape" is a false one, because it implies that all men rape.  More accurately, perhaps the statement would be "all rapists are men, but not all men are rapists".  So, when looking for a rapist, focus on men, knowing that ONE of them is your target.
So, moslem extremists are plotting against us.  Do I look for them in Synagogues?  Churches?  Not likely.  Mosques?  Hmmmm....
Anyway, my point is this: every time one of these fella's opens his cake hole and suggests that so and so is anti violent, wouldn't hurt a flea, etc, I say that we ask Mr. So and So what his opinion is on Canadian Troops in Afghanistan (offensive action).  Ask him if he has any word of thanks and/or condolences for the families of Capt Goddard (the most recent KIA in Afghanistan).

Just my thoughts.
So, there I was....

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Re: National security forces arrest 17 in Toronto raids
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2006, 09:24:25 »
"While law enforcement was celebrating thwarting a massive, systematic attack on several southern Ontario targets, these kinds of questions, if not allegations, were being thrown around by lawyers all weekend -- many of whom were complaining about an overzealous Canadian intelligence world. "

And so begins the inevitable donkey show.  All of the a-hole forces of civil liberties will rise to assist these idiots, fund raisers for legal defence will be held, and hippies everywhere will have an opportunity to scream at The Man because that is what they do.  Meanwhile, somewhere an evil ******* chuckles and remarks about a snake eating its own tail. 
Honest to god, I really believe that the arsehole socialists in this country will not be satisfied until there is a smouldering crater and a death toll.  The fact is that there will be a horde of information that will not go public due to the sensitive intelligence nature of it.  Some people can't stand not knowing (likely the ones who as kids would go into a genuine fit when you would tell them "I've got a secret, I've got a secret"). 
As for the lack of previous contacts of the suspects, whoever made the observation that they are supposed to lay low was bang on.  Another excerpt from my Al-Qaeda training manual:

Necessary Qualifications fro the Organization’s members
8. Patience
[The member] should have plenty of patience for [enduring] afflictions if he is overcome by the enemies.  He should not abandon this great path and sell himself and his religion to the enemies for his freedom. He should be patient in performing the work, even if it lasts a long time.


as well:

Measures that Should be Taken by the Undercover Member:
In addition to the above measures, the member should ...
1. Not reveal his true name to the Organization’s members who are working with him, nor to the [Islamic] Da’wa [Call].
2. Have a general appearance that does not indicate Islamic orientation (beard, toothpick, book, [long] shirt, small Koran).
5. Carry falsified personal documents and know all the information they contain.
7. Have complete and accurate knowledge of the security status related to those around him in his place of work and residence, so that no danger or harm would catch him unaware.
8. Maintain his family and neighborhood relationships and should not show any changes towards them so that they would not attempt to bring him back [from the Organization] for security reasons.
10. Not speak loudly.
11. Not get involved in advocating good and denouncing evil in order not to attract attention to himself.
12. Break the daily routine, especially when performing an undercover mission. For example, changing the departure and return routes, arrival and departure times, and the store where he buys his goods.
13. Not causing any trouble in the neighborhood where he lives or at the place of work.
20. Not undergo a sudden change in his daily routine or any relationships that precede his Jihad involvement. For example, there should not be an obvious change in his habits of conversing, movement, presence, or disappearance. Likewise, he should not be hasty to sever his previous relationships.
Important Note:
* Married brothers should observe the following:
1. Not talking with their wives about Jihad work.
2. The members with security risks should not travel with their wives. A wife with an Islamic appearance (veil) attracts attention.


The above is largely unclassified now, but I took out some of the steps that might not have been as obvious as others.  As you can see, they are trained to be patient and blend with their surroundings. 
 
As for lawyers, they are generally a bunch of self serving whores, who will say or do anything for attention and/or money.  I don't really blame them, they have dedicated their lives to ensuring people don't have to be responsible for their actions.  If nothing else, it's just a job, and they are obliged to do the best they can.  It will be the judges that make or break this one.  I'm not buying the "entrapment" angle (an American term, BTW) and if they were working on this one for that long, they wouldn't have moved in unless they had a pretty solid case.  Plus, the plan must have been pretty imminently dangerous, otherwise they probably would have waited out for a bit in order to round up even more people.  Once something like this hits, the participants scurry like roaches into the shadows. 
Tamouh, as for your comments (so much happens over night)
I think that perhaps there is a cultural difference between yours and my interpretations of what mature and brainwashing mean.  I'm not going to beat it to death, as most of the other posts to those ends summed up how most of us feel.  I believe your heart is in the right place, however.  I am very curious, however, why there is no Islamic community leadership that can organize country wide demonstrations of support for Canada, and protests against terrorism.  Surely the nuances of the various sects are not so huge that something couldn't be put together?  I reminds me of when I was still living in Toronto, and I had a black partner while working security.  He took more crap than I did, and was constantly called "Uncle Tom" or "Oreo".  The Oreo one always struck me.  White on the inside?  So the black youths were saying to him that by being law abiding he was being white.  So what would the opposite inference be?  Is this the case with Arabs in general in your experience?  Are you branded some sort of sell out or race traitor if you make any sort of statements of support to Canada and it's largely Christian institutions?  I'm not trying to be a dick or anything.  As you appear to probably have a better track on what really goes on behind the scenes, I would be interested in your thoughts. 

Bilton, seriously, what is your deal?  Are you recovering from a stroke or something?   ???
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 12:29:37 by Harris »
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Of course forests contribute to climate change - you pointless, vacuous wankers.

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Re: National security forces arrest 17 in Toronto raids
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2006, 10:43:30 »
Quote from Zipperhead Cop,

As for lawyers, they are generally a bunch of self serving whores, who will say or do anything for attention and/or money.  I don't really blame them, they have dedicated their lives to ensuring people don't have to be responsible for their actions.  If nothing else, it's just a job, and they are obliged to do the best they can.

Now this is a little too much over the top........like ANY trade, there are good and bad.
I blame the system more than anything,....I doubt very few started law school thinking " Just think of all the dirtbags I can help walk the street".
Methinks a clarification/apology would be warrented to those who wish to serve the greater good also.....
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: National security forces arrest 17 in Toronto raids
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2006, 12:07:25 »
Excerpts from a couple of good columns:

1) Jim Travers, "National interest must come first: Canada neglects to reinforce essential values in its pursuit of multicultural tolerance";
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1149545411381&call_pageid=970599119419

'...this is a domestic problem with offshore roots, not just a foreign problem manifesting itself at home. If the allegations are true and the plot more than a fantasy that became a conspiracy, we are under attack from ourselves...

In pursuing multicultural tolerance, Canada has been negligent in reinforcing essential, common-denominator values. Most of those are self-evident: human rights, the rule of law and the understanding that one person's freedom ends where another's begins.

These are all-defining and remain easily powerful enough to make this country a magnet. But what's slipped through cracks is that being Canadian requires a commitment passed from generation to generation.

Stripped bare of rhetoric and religion, politics and ethnicity, citizenship requires putting the national interest first.

To their shame and often for partisan advantage, politicians have been blinking when influential communities and interest groups fall below the threshold of what it means to hold a share in a nation of 33 million. As this weekend's events compellingly argue, that blindness is not sustainable.

In celebrating its differences, Canada must also protect the values that map the perimeter of its shared and evolving space. Along with all levels of government, every community leader, group and ethnic fragment shares responsibility for deciding what is acceptable and exposing what won't be tolerated.

Canada chose long ago to be the world in one place and, happily, that choice is not reversible. But the tougher decisions remain ahead for a country that must forge cohesion as immigration continues to rise and becomes even more diverse.'

2) Rondi Adamson, "Moderate Western Muslims, speak up! Do we really need social research to condemn Islamofacism?";
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0606/p09s01-coop.html

'    Aly Hindy, a high-profile imam in the Toronto suburb of Scarborough, called the arrests "an attack on the Muslim community." He went on to say that, "We are abusing our boys for the sake of pleasing George Bush." Rather than speaking out against extremism, or entertaining the notion that perhaps his country's security forces know what they're doing, Hindy called the charges against the men "home-grown baloney."

    Even moderate Canadian Muslim groups, willing to show faith in Canada's justice system, are mitigating their statements. The Canadian Islamic Congress (CIC) praised the work of Canada's spy agency and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. But then they scolded the Canadian government for not funding "academic research to diagnose this serious social problem and provide scientific solutions to it." A scientific solution to Islamofascism? Bring it on.

    The group also chastised Canada's Prime Minister Stephen Harper for portraying events "as a battle between 'us' and 'them.' " Following the arrests, Mr. Harper stated that "we are a target because of who we are. And how we live." One wonders - do the members of the CIC not consider themselves part of the "we" Harper referred to, when he spoke of Canadians? If so, that is indeed revealing.

    The Muslim Canadian Congress fared only a tad bit better. They praised the police, and expressed dismay that members of their community might be guilty as charged. And then they managed to blame President Bush, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, and even Harper for the fact that any such terror cells might exist. So far, only the Council on American-Islamic Relations Canada (CAIR-CAN) has managed to issue a condemnation of terror, and praise of the police, without tacking on a "but," a "Bush," or a "Canadian troops in Afghanistan."

    I was happily surprised at CAIR-CAN's press release. I shouldn't have been. We must expect that Western Muslims will wholeheartedly condemn Islamofascism, without any conditions placed on that condemnation. Without that, we may reach a point of divisions too deep to mend.'

Sorry about length, but think the points are important.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.