Author Topic: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged  (Read 149086 times)

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Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #325 on: November 16, 2017, 15:43:35 »
Where does it say that a Reservist has to make a special trip from his home unit to the TD location?  If a Reservist in Toronto wants to drive his car to a course in Halifax, where does it say he has to start his trip in Toronto.  If his course starts on Monday and he just happens to be in Fredericton of his own accord (i.e. he's not on duty and could be in Fredericton for any variety of legitimate reasons).  Could he not just drive on to Halifax on Sunday and claim that as his travel day?

Absolutely. This is possible in the Reg Force as well. If a member from Toronto, for example, has TD in Edmonton starting after the Christmas Holiday, but he spent Christmas with his family in Calgary, then we're not going to make him come all the way back to Toronto just to fly back to Edmonton; we would arrange the transportation from Calgary.

For a Reservist, it's even easier, because when they aren't on Class-A/B/C contract, we have no say whatsoever about where they live and where they travel. So, if a member "happens" to be in Fredericton the day before the start of his course, and if he plans to go vacation in Fredericton immediately after his course, then I see no reason why we couldn't approve POMV travel for this member starting and ending in Fredericton.

Now, if the member wasn't originally planning on vacationing in Fredericton, either before or after his trip, but was strongly "encouraged" to do so by his orderly room... is that an issue?... :dunno:
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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #326 on: November 16, 2017, 22:38:57 »
Absolutely. This is possible in the Reg Force as well. If a member from Toronto, for example, has TD in Edmonton starting after the Christmas Holiday, but he spent Christmas with his family in Calgary, then we're not going to make him come all the way back to Toronto just to fly back to Edmonton; we would arrange the transportation from Calgary.

For a Reservist, it's even easier, because when they aren't on Class-A/B/C contract, we have no say whatsoever about where they live and where they travel. So, if a member "happens" to be in Fredericton the day before the start of his course, and if he plans to go vacation in Fredericton immediately after his course, then I see no reason why we couldn't approve POMV travel for this member starting and ending in Fredericton.

Now, if the member wasn't originally planning on vacationing in Fredericton, either before or after his trip, but was strongly "encouraged" to do so by his orderly room... is that an issue?... :dunno:

They will get up to 500KM each way that's covered the rest is on their own dime...
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #327 on: November 17, 2017, 09:11:15 »
They will get up to 500KM each way that's covered the rest is on their own dime...

Yes, that's what I was saying.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #328 on: April 07, 2018, 08:30:57 »
Ok here's a new one.

The CFTDTIs are very clear that you cannot order someone to use POMV as the selected mode of transportation; you can only request that they do.

But what about rental vehicles? Can you select rental vehicle as the approved method of travel and order the member to rent a vehicle with their own Credit Card and have them claim it on their travel claim?

Some context:

We needed to send a 15 members to an exercise about an hour away. Our unit vehicles were unavailable. Taxis would have cost $540+ total (3 taxis 2 trips each at $90 per trip). We ended up going through Base Transport to rent vehicles, which cause a bunch of headaches:

1. they like advance notice, and we didn't get the selection message until 2 days before the exercise (i.e. we didn't even know how many of our people were going);
2. since the vehicle were acquired through TEME, they now fall under FMS regulations, meaning every driver needs to have their 404s, even though they were civilian vehicles from Enterprise rent-a-car;
3. Again, being DND arragned vehicles, we're supposed to use ARI cards to fill up with gas. Our unit has only 1 ARI "rental card" and the 3 vehicles would be returning at different times.

What we found is so much easier is if someone travelling rents a vehicle with the own credit card, and then simply claims the rental and the gas on their travel claims. No 404 required, no ARI required, and they can do it all on their own time. We just make sure that when the travel gets approved by our CO (the approving authority) that the ITA request lists rental vehicle as the selected mode of travel.

But if no one wanted to do this, could we order them to? Could we say "well, that's the selected mode of transportation, and you're driving 4 other sailors, so get going"? I feel like we could order people with 404s to drive rental vehicles that the unit acquired through TEME, but we couldn't order someone to go get their own rental vehicle which needs them to use their personal credit card, because we can't order people to use their own personal credit card. (and, from what I understand, using a unit acquisition card to acquire a rental vehicle would be a huge no no).

Thoughts?
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
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Offline winnipegoo7

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #329 on: April 07, 2018, 08:52:32 »
1. Couldn’t your subordinates just say they don’t have personal credit cards? Or that their credit cards are maxed out? There is no way for you to check.

2. Doesn’t the military issue credit cards just for this purpose? (Or have the military credit cards been discontinued?)

3. Would their be any insurance issues?

4. Why don’t you or the CO just rent the cars on your credit cards? - lead by example ;)

Offline sidemount

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #330 on: April 07, 2018, 09:29:36 »
It seems like this is a bandaide solution to make something work. Should we not be correcting shortfalls in the system to prevent this from happening in the first place.

Not sure of the actual policy but is ordering them an ethical thing to do? I would argue no. As well as an addition to the previous comments, who pays the CC interest when the claim isnt paid out in time. Or what happens when after the fact if funding is denied and these guys are on the hook.

The CO has a big pay cheque....maybe they should be fronting the cost associated so their troops don't have to.

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #331 on: April 07, 2018, 09:36:15 »
Our unit routinely uses rental vehicles as the primary mode of transport.

I suppose, strictly speaking, if someone refused to use their own credit card to rent the vehicle, we could not order them to do so.  On the other hand, the CO could also ask that member the pointed question about why they do not have the Govt of Canada travel card each of us is supposed to have...

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #332 on: April 07, 2018, 09:39:52 »
Our unit routinely uses rental vehicles as the primary mode of transport.

I suppose, strictly speaking, if someone refused to use their own credit card to rent the vehicle, we could not order them to do so.  On the other hand, the CO could also ask that member the pointed question about why they do not have the Govt of Canada travel card each of us is supposed to have...

The Travel cards are issued by exception to class A reservists.  (RCAF, with many class A+ reservists, are an outlier on that).

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #333 on: April 07, 2018, 10:13:28 »
That is interesting. Thank you!

Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #334 on: April 07, 2018, 10:35:27 »
No one at my unit has a GoC Travel Card.

Perhaps we should look into this...
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

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Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #335 on: April 07, 2018, 10:38:45 »
It seems like this is a bandaide solution to make something work. Should we not be correcting shortfalls in the system to prevent this from happening in the first place.

Not sure of the actual policy but is ordering them an ethical thing to do? I would argue no. As well as an addition to the previous comments, who pays the CC interest when the claim isnt paid out in time. Or what happens when after the fact if funding is denied and these guys are on the hook.

The CO has a big pay cheque....maybe they should be fronting the cost associated so their troops don't have to.

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Claims not paid out on time? Not in my orderly room! Especially when there's Credit Card receipts involved; those ones get prioritized.

Further, it's not about the costs associated, it's about the level of complexity. Time and time again, members renting vehicles and claiming both the vehicle and gas on their travel claim has been extremely simpler than arranging rental cars through TEME. 
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #336 on: April 07, 2018, 10:43:23 »
Just as a personal opinion, if I had to drive an hour away, and you wanted me to rent a vehicle on my personal credit card, I'd tell you to pound sand and authorize POMV at high rate. If Base Tpt can't get the vehicle on time, I'm taking my own wheels or the unit can find another way for me to get to the exercise.

Granted I have a GoC travel card and it's a non-issue, but I didn't have that a few years ago and wouldn't want to be putting my card on the line for DND.

Offline sidemount

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #337 on: April 07, 2018, 10:48:59 »
Claims not paid out on time? Not in my orderly room! Especially when there's Credit Card receipts involved; those ones get prioritized.

Further, it's not about the costs associated, it's about the level of complexity. Time and time again, members renting vehicles and claiming both the vehicle and gas on their travel claim has been extremely simpler than arranging rental cars through TEME.
Perfect! I have to admit the BOR here in Kingston has been fantastic with regards to claim payout. Sadly this was not always the case when I was in Pet.

I agree that CC and members booking and just paying them back is the easiest way to do things. And if the member is willing then fantastic. However we can't expect the member to be able to do this. Nor should it be an order to.

Just my opinion :)

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Offline Eagle Eye View

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #338 on: April 07, 2018, 11:53:38 »
My questions is why is it so darn difficult to get a vehicle from Base transport? Why the red tapes?
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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #339 on: April 07, 2018, 11:56:56 »
My questions is why is it so darn difficult to get a vehicle from Base transport? Why the red tapes?
Because we're a process driven military and red tape makes people feel important because they can control your tasks.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #340 on: April 07, 2018, 11:59:58 »
On the other hand, the CO could also ask that member the pointed question about why they do not have the Govt of Canada travel card each of us is supposed to have...

Having the Govt card is a blessing.  I never have to worry about an advance and I never have to worry about my budget at home being affected by military travel.

Last minute travel (which happens quite frequently) is never an issue for me.   


Offline dapaterson

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #341 on: April 07, 2018, 12:10:25 »
So, a few questions arise:

1. Why can't the groups travel together? Why is there a need for three different departure times?

2. If those timings can be flexible, are there other options? Charter a small bus for a trip each way - that way, driver, fuel etc are all taken care of.

3. Are there other units in the area?  For example, if there's a Res Svc Bn, do they have MSE and drivers that they could provide to do the task (as with #2, above)?


Having another individual to drive is particularly useful if your personnel are going to undergo training that will limit their sleep time - better to have a wide-awake driver than one asleep at the wheel.  (FMS driver rest regulations also come into play if you're using MSE - will your pers be getting their mandated 8 hours?)

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #342 on: April 07, 2018, 12:44:59 »
3. Are there other units in the area?  For example, if there's a Res Svc Bn, do they have MSE and drivers that they could provide to do the task (as with #2, above)?



Now you're suggesting the Nav Res and PRes unit could work together which might lead to cost savings?  That is NOT the way the GoC. DND or the CAF conducts business!    :pop:
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #343 on: April 07, 2018, 13:20:48 »
Now you're suggesting the Nav Res and PRes unit could work together which might lead to cost savings?  That is NOT the way the GoC. DND or the CAF conducts business!    :pop:

You beat me to it.

I'm looking to reduce the amount of time and effort it takes to get my troops to a location just an hour away without  huge cost increases. If I had it ask the Army (we do have a svc bn on our property) to lend me their personnel and/or their own unit vehicles, it would add time and complexity (it would probably need a CO to CO email) , plus they'd have to pay a Class A to act as a driver, which would have to be SA'd from our unit to their, so now cost and complexity are going up.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #344 on: April 07, 2018, 13:24:43 »
My questions is why is it so darn difficult to get a vehicle from Base transport? Why the red tapes?

It wasn't. They were actually very helpful. We submitted the CF645 at 9am and got confirmation that 3 vehicles were rented just after lunch.

The issue more has to do with flexibility. If they rent the vehicles, then the drivers need 404s and we need to use ARI cards for fuel. Plus, MSE/Transport/traffic  is less flexible with late, last minute, or after house requests. Rental agencies themselves don't care; business is business. If I had requested a bus on similarly short notice, they likely would have said it wouldn't happen.
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #345 on: April 07, 2018, 13:27:51 »
So, a few questions arise:

1. Why can't the groups travel together? Why is there a need for three different departure times?

2. If those timings can be flexible, are there other options? Charter a small bus for a trip each way - that way, driver, fuel etc are all taken care of.

For question 2, charter bus would have been $500-$600. If I had that much money to transport 15 ppl, I WOULD just send them by taxi. That'd be sooooooo much simpler.

For question 1, it's all about availability. The exercise wanted our cooks as early as possible, so a group of cooks who didn't have to work on the Friday went early, and the rest of the group (who had civilian commitments and could leave early) left in the early evening.
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #346 on: April 07, 2018, 14:36:00 »
You beat me to it.

I'm looking to reduce the amount of time and effort it takes to get my troops to a location just an hour away without  huge cost increases. If I had it ask the Army (we do have a svc bn on our property) to lend me their personnel and/or their own unit vehicles, it would add time and complexity (it would probably need a CO to CO email) , plus they'd have to pay a Class A to act as a driver, which would have to be SA'd from our unit to their, so now cost and complexity are going up.

I don't see how a CO to CO email is onerous -
NRD CO "Hey, Mary, can you provide drivers and vehicles to do AAA, BBB and CCC?"

Svc Bn CO "Sure, Frank!  Have your ops contact mine." 

Navy Ops "Per the CO emails below, please use fin code 1000AA C127 GRC0000COOKS plus G/Ls for pay & fuel".

Svc Bn Ops "What's the fin code for coffee?"


Lots of ways to do things as easily as possible.  It takes more effort to make things hard than it does to make things easy.


Frankly, if I were a Svc Bn CO, I'd only make the user unit pay for fuel - getting drivers more time behind the wheel  would be something I'd want to accomplish.
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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #347 on: April 07, 2018, 21:33:22 »
An issue to consider when accepting to rent a vehicle with your own credit card is one of liability.  In case of accident, you may be held liable per the rental contract: the military cannot and will not provide top cover.  Furthermore, generally, only 1 person can drive (the renter) unless drivers are added to the contract, at a premium (which is not reimbursed)

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #348 on: April 07, 2018, 21:56:08 »
Our unit routinely uses rental vehicles as the primary mode of transport.

I suppose, strictly speaking, if someone refused to use their own credit card to rent the vehicle, we could not order them to do so.  On the other hand, the CO could also ask that member the pointed question about why they do not have the Govt of Canada travel card each of us is supposed to have...

Wait, each person is supposed to have a GTC?  I was told only Crew Commanders in our sqn get those (as we get ready to rent half a dozen cars on our personal cards...)
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #349 on: April 07, 2018, 22:14:15 »
I think what he means is the IDTC maybe;  the BMO Government MasterCard that replaced the AMEX one.  I have one and encourage all the new folks to get one;  $5k limit and I never have to use my own card.  Never have any issue with reimbursement, etc.  I just staple my statement to the claim usually and highlight/annotated it as required.

I've never used it for a car rental...I'm not sure if the CAF stuff jives with this (many different situations...in Canada, overseas, etc.

https://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/d10/v238/en?print

2.2.2 Rental Vehicles

Collision Damage Waiver (CDW) coverage for the entire period that a vehicle is rented is required.  This coverage is provided through the use of the departmental travel expense card (DTEC) or individual designated travel card (IDTC).  When these cards are used to reserve and fully pay for the car rental, the traveller must decline the coverage for CDW on the rental agreement.  Where the DTEC or the IDTC is not used and free coverage is not provided by a personal credit card, the cost of the premiums for CDW coverage shall be reimbursed by the employer.

Public Liability and Property Damage coverage is included in the daily rental rates provided by the government approved car rental suppliers.  When travelling outside Canada, travellers should ensure additional coverage is obtained where required.  In such circumstances, premiums for additional coverage will be reimbursed.

Travellers shall not be reimbursed for personal accident insurance coverage premiums.


CAF stuff here:  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/temp-duty-travel-instructions.page
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 22:20:02 by Eye In The Sky »
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