Author Topic: Time To Dust Off Our M109???  (Read 29912 times)

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Offline toglmonster

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Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« on: September 19, 2006, 20:45:37 »
With our Leopard tanks getting a new lease on life and being sent to Afghanistan would it be a good idea to ship off a battery or two of M109 with them. Or have they already been scrapped??? With airplanes on order that can easily carry them maybe our M109 should be upgraded not retired.

Offline COBRA-6

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2006, 20:51:24 »
for what purpose? I don't think the taliban have counter-battery capabilities that would require protection for the gun det while firing, and I would think (I'm not a gunner) that the M777 are more mobile than than the M109's would be...
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Offline toglmonster

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2006, 21:32:20 »
We only have small number of  M777 in country, is that enough? Also I'd feel much safer from snipers in a M109 or from any wandering bands of al- Qaida or Taliban.

Offline toglmonster

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2006, 21:49:53 »
Gee I thought armor stopped bullets, papper cover rock. But your right, I know dick . Just throwing out an idea for discuion. But just one more thing, if an M109 in country is such a bad idea why do the Dutch have there PzH 2000 over there?

Offline COBRA-6

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2006, 21:56:06 »
the gun crews already have armoured veh

ever stop to think of the logistical tail that comes with armour? the tanks are being brought in to fill a direct-fire requirement, no such requirement exists for the M109, as the M777 is doing the job quite well.
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Offline Koenigsegg

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2006, 21:56:33 »
Compared to our M-109s, the PzH 2000s are lightyears ahead.  Far superior.

And the M-109 armour effectively protects from rounds up to 7.62mm if I am not mistaken.  An RPG will cause serious damage, likely killed all the crew.  Sniper rifles of large calibre will potential rip right through the armor, and make a good day bad.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2006, 21:57:19 »
With our Leopard tanks getting a new lease on life and being sent to Afghanistan would it be a good idea to ship off a battery or two of M109 with them. ...  With airplanes on order that can easily carry them maybe our M109 should be upgraded not retired.
What are you suggesting?  M109 in Kandahar or an M109 life extension program?

What is the capability you think this will give us in Afghanistan? A big armoured & very slow moving gun?  Something that we will need to support by sending unarmoured tractors with lowbeds in order to haul around the country?

Compared to our M-109s, the PzH 2000s are lightyears ahead.
Our M109 are old even by standards of other M109.

Offline silentbutdeadly

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2006, 22:06:14 »
Yeah there's no need for the 109 in Kdr. The M777 is doing just fine and has alot of protection when they are in there battle posns.

Offline toglmonster

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2006, 22:19:38 »
Gentleman, thank you, if your happy with the M777 that's great, I like it too, hope we get more.   Your also right I should have made this two topices. Question: Should we put our M109 in a Life Extension Program.


MOD EDIT: Changed the "my profile" line as I deleted the post that went after it.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 07:59:46 by Bruce Monkhouse »

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2006, 08:04:06 »
Everyone, I cleaned this thread up and I am unlocking this as I think this topic is worthy of discussion.

Anyone who thought 6 months ago that we would dust off the Leo's and use them in Afghanistan please raise your hand.....................yup, that's what I thought.

As for profiles, it states in the site rules that no one is REQUIRED to fill it in, just that it does help others to see your way of looking at things.
Bruce
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 08:13:31 by Bruce Monkhouse »
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Offline JackD

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2006, 10:39:21 »
By the way are there any intentions to buy more of these m777's? What are the intentions for distribution? What other equipment is in the pipeline?

Offline GUNS

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2006, 10:51:39 »
I for one would not want to see M109's in A'gan. Can you picture being inside the turret when it 40C out side with no wind. I don't think so. The M109 had its place in Canadian military history now its time to move on to newer and better equipment. Just a footnote I was on the first gun crew that fired the first round from a M109 in Shilo in 1968, they made the #4(loader) use a 25ft. lanyard to fire the gun.
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Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2006, 10:57:31 »
Some facts still remain, unless you're in the Artillery and have operational experience, talking about what protection the armoured M109 offers is moot, Without having been to see the actual gun lines used by the the arty in theater and what security procautions are taken to ensure the safety of the gun line against "wandering groups of Taliban" is also useless.

If your talking about life extention program for the M109 I think that is also long dead, the M777 is twice the gun system the M109 would be if we tried t use it today. Now if your advocating the purchase of a new armoured SPG, then that's a whole different argument and again one that should be discussed by people who can answer the points in my first part of this post.
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Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2006, 13:36:31 »
M109 Life Extension Program?

In probable theatres of deployment, what would an M109 MLE program provide that justifies the additional cost as opposed to supplemental M777 or perhaps HIMARS?

Traditional conventional war where it's already in place, and capable of immediate fire support against an invading conventional force?

Rolling off a ship and providing immediate artillery support from a beachhead position?

....and if DND chose to keep an SPH for either of those roles, would it not be cheaper (when one takes into account adminstrative costs) to buy surplus PzH2000's rather than creating another "Made in Canada" solution with all the associated bidding nonsense for so very few chassis?


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Offline COBRA-6

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2006, 13:42:25 »
or perhapse a LAV-based system?

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Offline KevinB

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2006, 13:51:39 »
Having been a gunner long long ago (before I elevated to being Patricia  ;D) - I think the M777 is a better system for Afghan -- it is Airmobile - unlike the M109.
  Having a very brief stint on a M109 I would not wish it on anyone.

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2006, 16:32:15 »
Just to add some more fuel to the fire, and that of the guns/missiles debate, I add these two commentaries from Strategy Page.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/articles/20060808.aspx
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/articles/20050928.aspx

Unlike Excalibur, and for that matter the NLOS PAM - HIMARS/GMLRS already has a track record.
Like Excalibur, and the Small Diameter Bomb, the unit cost is on the same order of magnitude
Warhead of 81.6 kg, Range of 70 km
Loiter Time (on the ground) indefinite

A readily available system for Arty to deliver PGMs as a back up to the M777s?

Unlike the Air Force it doesn't need a runway and while support may be more expensive than comparable support for the guns it is a lot cheaper and more likely to be on hand than aircraft.
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Offline Petard

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2006, 22:44:56 »
This thread seems to have drifted off into the excalibur one.
I agree HIMARS would be good to have, but when considering the limitations of time and money, and if you can only have one, the M777, IMO, is the better choice.
HIMARS might give you range and precision when needed, but even in it's reduced effects form it still carries a large warhead that might not be so desirable in danger close situations or when collateral damage is more likely from the larger blast. Most rockets do not give you much of a sustained fire capability unless you have a good lot of them to make up for the longer reload times, nor does it give you (in most cases) other capabilities for munitions like illumination or multi-spectral smoke.
But the M109, why? Comparing it to the Leopard deploying isn't a very good parallel for a number of reasons, not the least of which because the Leo has stayed in service whereas the M109 was withdrawn, and in any case they both are meant for very different roles.
But if we're going to talk about bringing back some old Artillery gun into service I'd vote for the L5, now there was a honey. She'd stick by you through all kinds of abuse and terrain and still perform for you. You could strip her right down, more so than any other, and get her cleaned up or packed up into all kinds of different transport. A very forgiving gun, mind you if you grabbed one of her legs the wrong way she sure could pinch you bad.
Yes I'm still talking about a gun here, although it might've sounded like I was talking about an old sweetheart, then again, maybe I am.

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2006, 23:35:57 »
Darn right.....in my perfect world all Artillery guns have folding trails.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2006, 23:54:38 »
... if you can only have one, the M777, IMO, is the better choice.....

I agree.

And in that case the Excalibur, if it can be made to work at a reasonable price, would seem a reasonable addition to the arsenal.  If there is a bit more money in the budget, if the need for PGMs it that pressing then the HIMARS is a here and now solution, not a somewhen solution.
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Offline Gunnerlove

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2006, 16:11:00 »
Lets save the cash and wait a few years till NLOS-C comes on line then we can tack a number of units onto the US order. Hell we already use the ordinance. Towed is great for people who have Chinooks for mobility or are to poor to operate a fleet of modern SP guns. Which are we?
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2006, 16:13:21 »
Lets save the cash and wait a few years till NLOS-C comes on line then we can tack a number of units onto the US order. Hell we already use the ordinance. Towed is great for people who have Chinooks for mobility or are to poor to operate a fleet of modern SP guns. Which are we?

I think we may have to wait for another budget, and possibly an election, for that answer.   :)
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Offline Petard

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2006, 10:39:07 »
Meanwhile, this might belong in the radio chatter section, then again, maybe not.
This was a Nijmegan marching tune for Canadian gunners, might be worthwhile knowing, better than "The Screw Guns" anyway I think
(sung to the tune of "I moved 16 tons"):

I was born with a lanyard
in my hand.
I'm cannon cocky
I'm a shootin' man.
1st a gunner
now a number one,
with a 109 baby
I'm a son-of-gun.

I ride 26 tons
an' wadda I get?
'nother day over
an' deeper in debt
St Peter dontcha
ya call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my balls to the DCO

Well up jump a dusty
cannoneer
This was a tough one
he had no peer.
Had a back
made of solid rock
'cause he humped dem rounds
around the clock

He ride 26 tons
an' what'd he get?
'nother day over
an' deeper in debt
St Peter dontcha
ya call him cause he can't go
He owes dem balls to the DCO

Well they shoot, move, communicate
this is the pride of the R-C-H-A
These are killers
you will see
When they give that battle
dignity

They ride 26 tons
an' wadda they get?
'nother day over
an' deeper in debt
St Peter dontcha
ya call 'em cause they can't go
they owe their balls to the DCO

 

Offline ArmyRick

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2007, 11:14:13 »
I was under the impression our M109s were sold off (this was from an arty WO). Maybe rumour mill, but I trust my source that at least some are gone.

m109, Keep them out of service. they had their time.

I agree with getting on board with the FCS NLOS-C
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Offline Bobbyoreo

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Re: Time To Dust Off Our M109???
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2007, 11:37:16 »
M109's were mothballed...I sent the ones from Shilo to Meaford for storage...unless they used them for targets ;D
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