Author Topic: All About PAT (merged)  (Read 105789 times)

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Offline Thirstyson

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2004, 08:59:28 »
Like I said.. I did what I could in a bad situation and got a wonderful posting, as for him well... he's released.

aesop081

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2004, 12:41:11 »
Just curious, what MOC are you and where did you end up ?

Cheers

Offline Thirstyson

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2004, 13:26:14 »
Signals Officer, background in physics.

I'm currently at DRDC Ottawa.

Offline Big Foot

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2004, 13:36:18 »
I think that the military needs to take a closer look at PAT platoon. It seemed to me that far too many people have fallen through the cracks and got stuck into PAT when they should be released or put straight back onto course. From my point of view, PAT, at least in St-Jean is being improperly utilized and the higher ups should do whatever it takes to expedite processing to get those people off PAT.
It's not insubordinate if you know exactly where the line is and walk on it but never cross it.

aesop081

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2004, 15:59:07 »
I would agree with that.  The recruiting system also needs to be improved in order to match up recruit serials to MOC schools as much as possible ( there are limits to what can be acheived there).

Offline Spr. Legault

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2004, 23:21:25 »
the reserve unit im joining says that ill be in PAT platoon till the BMQ starts in the summer, or whenever. surely they wont have us show up every week, knowing nothing to sit in a room with others doing and knowing nothing, what is a reserve PAT like? ......anyone?
'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that, with it, Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits in Thy mercy.'

sirmckinnon

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2004, 23:54:59 »
Hey Guys. a little blip from Crazy EyEz.
I was on pat at st.jean for almost 4 months, with injuries, and it is seriousally understaffed, the staff try their best to get people out or back on course asap.
altho, pat there is mundane, same crap different day, the MEGA is structured for a 10 week hard dose of military"ethos" but after a prolonged dose is not conductive to positive mental attitude, I got crap on every day,,,,guarenteed. and not just because of the sunglasses, the place is crawling with instructors, that know the pat people and they watch for us to frig up, so they can "jack us up" it gets a little old after more than 10 weeks pass, its enough punishment watching your new bestfriends get on the bus at 7am in the green break area after grad. brutal troops....brutal
anyhoo, anyone who wants to rant about cflrs, i have lots of stories

Offline chk2fung

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2004, 00:09:01 »
When I was on PAT in St. Jean we had an excellent Sergeant running PAT platoon.   PAT can be a complete waste of time if you make it that, or it could be a pretty fulfilling experience.   There are times when you have to sit in the room.   We had tea and toast, visits to the MIR, and PT everyday.   We were tasked out a lot, whether it was admin work, helping out at the QM, etc.   If you know you're gonna be there a while you can ask for attach posting.   You can even apply for courses that you are physically able to complete like recruiting.   A couple of the officer-cadets were given attach postings to Toronto as recruiting officers.  I did not feel we were treated poorly while on PAT.  Just take advantage of your time in PAT, don't fret too much about it being a downer, instead spend your energy getting physically fit to go back on course.
I rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!!!!

sirmckinnon

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2004, 14:48:56 »
look buddy, i dont know what base you were at but. REC. pat and OCDT pat are 2 totally different things,,, ocdts are treated much better than rec. pat platoon.
constant barrage of mental road blocks........bad memories......

Offline birdgunnnersrule

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2004, 21:15:31 »
Looks like there's two sides of the fence in this one....I agree that some people in the PAT platoons are malingers that do not want to work or were ill prepared for course.  Obviously, some people have serious injuries and were removed from course for that reason.  The CF is going to recruit according to the PM 5000 more personnel. How are we going to be prepared for this influx, especially in technical trades where the QL3 is longer?  Reduced standards, more schools taking instructors away from the units increasing the workload on those left behind, letting people pass that shouldn't to fill the quota.  I am tired of receiving and seeing soldiers and worst of all officers come through the system because of numbers. Fail them, let them stay in the PAT platoon, release them or send them to the other trades.  Although I was lucky enough not to end up in a PAT platoon, I do understand the sense of hopelessness and despair.  Don't always wait for the staff to come to you with something to do as administering personnel that are releasing, injured, and with a wealth of other problems is a fulltime job in its own right.  We cannot afford to tie all kinds of resources up to PAT sitting when do not have enough qualified trainers.  If you are going to be there long enough take an OPME, sew, stay away from the ones with the bad attitude. Volunteer to teach lectures on the QR & Os, I don't know, just change the mindset.

Offline Meridian

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2004, 10:27:50 »
IMHO Pat in St Jean was garbage.

I was medically recoursed due to back issues off of my course. Thankfully they are since on the mend, and I was cleared medically before release to enable re-enrollment.

Since I was not appreciating the RMC way of things, and was having financial difficulties, I was told it was impossible to transfer to ROTP civi-u, but to VR and re-enroll after 6 months.   Told by several staff, and the Major who interviewed me on exit more or less recommended this or the reserves as well as a better option.

All said and told, Im still pissed that I didnt get to finish my BOTP. My Pl Cmd was an a--hole but he had the best intentions and had I not been concerned (along with several docs) with my back spasms, I Would have pushed heavily to complete at least BOTP.

At any rate, I ended up sitting on PAT for a month. There are, however ways to get yourself off of it. Attachecd postings to CFRC's (although you have to do the leg work, my PO straight up told me he could care less, had no time, if I wanted to call around, go ahead).   which I would have done, but as I said I Was leaving....
Anyway.. you do go through hell there. Esp in the days of instructors in Cadpat and recruits not, it was easy to tell who to pick on.

Ive even heard many stories where 2Lts, who have come back to St Jean for SLT have been jacked up by instructor staff, I guess they didnt recognize the thicker line.


Anyway, PAT could use some work at St Jean esp. the only work available was in the QM, and usually only a few got to go. You were not allowed to do much else, even if you asked...  I did a few taskings for the SLTS but only because I had been there once and was helpful.....

It is a highly negative environment though, and the information flow is particularly bad, and since you have nothign to do even the most devoted recruits/ocdts get worn down hearing about their friends getting screwed all day.

sirmckinnon

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2004, 15:11:44 »
you said it all, ya anyone who spends time on pat with something broken goes down the spiral eventually

lostlittle1

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2005, 16:46:04 »
 ;D
Hummmm PAT Pl...man have I got some stories!!!

I was injured (seriously)  fall 2003 while on basic (NCM) and was recoursed in The beginning of week eight.  I left my family (Husband and Son) to go to basic for a few short months that turned out to be close to eight months.  And yes, all in St Jean

In those eight months I had seen my son once and my Husband twice.  That in itself was hard.  I was in a wheelchair, graduated to crutches, then to a cane, then on 2 feet.  I have not been able to run since. 

Besides having to deal with my (ongoing) injury, yes I am still in and yes the Forces is my life, there were so many other issues I had to deal with while on pat.  The first issue was the negativity.  I found that after crying every single day for 2 or more weeks, and listening to the stories about how you were a dirtbag because you were on PAT, and missing my family, and taking wads of pills, I made a choice.  I could either S**T or GET.  IOW suck it up, get healthy and get on platoon or quit.  I chose to stay.  I also made alot of changes in how I looked at things while on PAT.  I tried to learn everything I could about how things worked, not the stuff they teach you in basic, but how it really works.  How a good attitude gets you farther than a bad one, how to shine my boots properly, how to make one heck of a bed so when I did get back on platoon I would shine. 

I approached new people that would come to pat and try to tell them and guide them on how things worked, where to go , who to talk to, what to do if you needed something...etc... this gave me something to do, i got to meet new people, and it made me learn new things too.

I am not going to blow sunshine up your butt and tell you it was all great.  It wasnt.  there were days I did not think I could take one more inspection (4x per week) or days I could not bear to see another graduation that I was not on.  The hardest to watch is always your own platoon.  The hardest days were when I was working at the green desk and have a SGT say to another..."no you can keep the change from the coffee...just give it to the Private, its for her Pat PL Retirement fund."  Yes some people look down on you  some are even ignorant and arrogant enough to say it out loud.  There are some people that I know that are still there (since Sept 2003)  I think they are afraid to move on.  Some, granted, are lazy. 

There are no courses offered on Pat Pl.  I asked repeatedly, the answer was always a firm no.  No ruck marching, no "classtime type" classes.  Nothing.  It's not that the troops don't want it, they just are not allowed.  and to answer the big question "what about reading the QRand Os?  you have to request them, you have to tell them why you want them, and they will try to solve your problem without you looking at them.  but I have read the First Aid Manual 2 doz times.  No we are not allowed to read books, magazines (unless it is CF issued) even library books.  I had to sneak to the library to get a card so I could read at night.   

When I started to walk again I had to wear sneakers with my combats and it was humilitaing, and I did not need and instructor point it out to me in front of the non Pat Troops.  I hated wearing the big yellow "A", I hated the white room.  But I have never been anywhere that I have learned so much about what I am capable of and what others are capable of.

So Now I am here in Borden.  On Pat Pl.  it is nothing like St Jean.  We sit outside in tents.  Play cards.  Have our careers messed with. 
It is h*ll.  Truly H*ll. 

I hope I can make it through this one.  If I can do this, I can do anything.

But with a bad leg I can't do SQ, and without SQ I can't get a QL3 course.  Don't look down on me, us, them.  Most of us are trying our guts out.  If you have not been there you have nothing to say. 
 :cdn:

aesop081

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2005, 16:54:44 »
;D
Hummmm PAT Pl...man have I got some stories!!!

I was injured (seriously)   fall 2003 while on basic (NCM) and was recoursed in The beginning of week eight.   I left my family (Husband and Son) to go to basic for a few short months that turned out to be close to eight months.   And yes, all in St Jean

In those eight months I had seen my son once and my Husband twice.   That in itself was hard.   I was in a wheelchair, graduated to crutches, then to a cane, then on 2 feet.   I have not been able to run since.  

Besides having to deal with my (ongoing) injury, yes I am still in and yes the Forces is my life, there were so many other issues I had to deal with while on pat.   The first issue was the negativity.   I found that after crying every single day for 2 or more weeks, and listening to the stories about how you were a dirtbag because you were on PAT, and missing my family, and taking wads of pills, I made a choice.   I could either S**T or GET.   IOW suck it up, get healthy and get on platoon or quit.   I chose to stay.   I also made alot of changes in how I looked at things while on PAT.   I tried to learn everything I could about how things worked, not the stuff they teach you in basic, but how it really works.   How a good attitude gets you farther than a bad one, how to shine my boots properly, how to make one heck of a bed so when I did get back on platoon I would shine.  

I approached new people that would come to pat and try to tell them and guide them on how things worked, where to go , who to talk to, what to do if you needed something...etc... this gave me something to do, i got to meet new people, and it made me learn new things too.

I am not going to blow sunshine up your butt and tell you it was all great.   It wasnt.   there were days I did not think I could take one more inspection (4x per week) or days I could not bear to see another graduation that I was not on.   The hardest to watch is always your own platoon.   The hardest days were when I was working at the green desk and have a SGT say to another..."no you can keep the change from the coffee...just give it to the Private, its for her Pat PL Retirement fund."   Yes some people look down on you   some are even ignorant and arrogant enough to say it out loud.   There are some people that I know that are still there (since Sept 2003)   I think they are afraid to move on.   Some, granted, are lazy.  

There are no courses offered on Pat Pl.   I asked repeatedly, the answer was always a firm no.   No ruck marching, no "classtime type" classes.   Nothing.   It's not that the troops don't want it, they just are not allowed.   and to answer the big question "what about reading the QRand Os?   you have to request them, you have to tell them why you want them, and they will try to solve your problem without you looking at them.   but I have read the First Aid Manual 2 doz times.   No we are not allowed to read books, magazines (unless it is CF issued) even library books.   I had to sneak to the library to get a card so I could read at night.     

When I started to walk again I had to wear sneakers with my combats and it was humilitaing, and I did not need and instructor point it out to me in front of the non Pat Troops.   I hated wearing the big yellow "A", I hated the white room.   But I have never been anywhere that I have learned so much about what I am capable of and what others are capable of.

So Now I am here in Borden.   On Pat Pl.   it is nothing like St Jean.   We sit outside in tents.   Play cards.   Have our careers messed with.  
It is h*ll.   Truly H*ll.  

I hope I can make it through this one.   If I can do this, I can do anything.

But with a bad leg I can't do SQ, and without SQ I can't get a QL3 course.   Don't look down on me, us, them.   Most of us are trying our guts out.   If you have not been there you have nothing to say.  
 :cdn:

Your story is a familiar one.   I used to have students who ended up in your situation and i sympathise.   PAT has a bad reputation, i'm sure that if you look around , you will see a few examples of the reason why.   This being said, i can olny apologise for the way Senior NCOs behaved in your "green desk cofee fund" example.   Behaviour like this brings discredit upon all NCOs and is deplorable.   I would like to assure you that this is not the standard you should expect from your leadership. There are productive things for PAT personel to do, and if you have requested to do them (i.e. reading regulations manuals) then it is a failiure of leadership to not allow you to do it. 

On that note, i wish you the best of luck, i know it is hard sometimes but stick it out !
« Last Edit: January 03, 2005, 16:59:45 by aesop081 »

*Grunt

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2005, 10:35:02 »
;D
Hummmm PAT Pl...man have I got some stories!!!

I was injured (seriously)   fall 2003 while on basic (NCM) and was recoursed in The beginning of week eight.   I left my family (Husband and Son) to go to basic for a few short months that turned out to be close to eight months.   And yes, all in St Jean

In those eight months I had seen my son once and my Husband twice.   That in itself was hard.   I was in a wheelchair, graduated to crutches, then to a cane, then on 2 feet.   I have not been able to run since.  

Besides having to deal with my (ongoing) injury, yes I am still in and yes the Forces is my life, there were so many other issues I had to deal with while on pat.   The first issue was the negativity.   I found that after crying every single day for 2 or more weeks, and listening to the stories about how you were a dirtbag because you were on PAT, and missing my family, and taking wads of pills, I made a choice.   I could either S**T or GET.   IOW suck it up, get healthy and get on platoon or quit.   I chose to stay.   I also made alot of changes in how I looked at things while on PAT.   I tried to learn everything I could about how things worked, not the stuff they teach you in basic, but how it really works.   How a good attitude gets you farther than a bad one, how to shine my boots properly, how to make one heck of a bed so when I did get back on platoon I would shine.  

I approached new people that would come to pat and try to tell them and guide them on how things worked, where to go , who to talk to, what to do if you needed something...etc... this gave me something to do, i got to meet new people, and it made me learn new things too.

I am not going to blow sunshine up your butt and tell you it was all great.   It wasnt.   there were days I did not think I could take one more inspection (4x per week) or days I could not bear to see another graduation that I was not on.   The hardest to watch is always your own platoon.   The hardest days were when I was working at the green desk and have a SGT say to another..."no you can keep the change from the coffee...just give it to the Private, its for her Pat PL Retirement fund."   Yes some people look down on you   some are even ignorant and arrogant enough to say it out loud.   There are some people that I know that are still there (since Sept 2003)   I think they are afraid to move on.   Some, granted, are lazy.  

There are no courses offered on Pat Pl.   I asked repeatedly, the answer was always a firm no.   No ruck marching, no "classtime type" classes.   Nothing.   It's not that the troops don't want it, they just are not allowed.   and to answer the big question "what about reading the QRand Os?   you have to request them, you have to tell them why you want them, and they will try to solve your problem without you looking at them.   but I have read the First Aid Manual 2 doz times.   No we are not allowed to read books, magazines (unless it is CF issued) even library books.   I had to sneak to the library to get a card so I could read at night.     

When I started to walk again I had to wear sneakers with my combats and it was humilitaing, and I did not need and instructor point it out to me in front of the non Pat Troops.   I hated wearing the big yellow "A", I hated the white room.   But I have never been anywhere that I have learned so much about what I am capable of and what others are capable of.

So Now I am here in Borden.   On Pat Pl.   it is nothing like St Jean.   We sit outside in tents.   Play cards.   Have our careers messed with.  
It is h*ll.   Truly H*ll.  

I hope I can make it through this one.   If I can do this, I can do anything.

But with a bad leg I can't do SQ, and without SQ I can't get a QL3 course.   Don't look down on me, us, them.   Most of us are trying our guts out.   If you have not been there you have nothing to say.  
 :cdn:

Yes your story seems very familar, I was also on PAT PL, in I think it was in May 2004 in St. Jean CFLRS, I know all to well about the countless hours of shinning boots, and staring up at the clock waiting for lunch then supper...ect Except and if you were on PAT when I was you'd remember me, I had to take care of this asain girl that joined our ranks due to contracting the chicken pox. I was volunteered to take care of her, becuase I was immune to it. I had to bring her breakfast, lunch, and dinner..do her luandry, and fetch anything else she required, books, canteen suplies, meds, notes, ect... also I had to check on her every 2 hours during the day. I had no real problem doing any of this, except for the small embarassment of walking from the green halls all the way to the other side of the MEGA and back with a tray from the Caff.

Good times though..I think If your who I think you are I remember you, I remember you had to wear running shoes with your uniform.

Needless to say PAT Pl was embarassing, degrading, and very frusterating...

Offline GhostofJacK

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2005, 14:34:08 »
PAT atleast at Wainwright is large, and was very stupid. However, it was the people in PAT that made it bad. My course from BMQ arrived in Nov but couldn't get on a course for SQ until March. We sat on PAT, but we had a good handler who took us on PT every day, did VERY basic E&E stuff and even had inspections 4 days a week.

At the worst part of PAT there were I believe close to 300 of us, with the exception of my wouldbe course, the rest were actual PAT Pls. They would whine and complain about how bad Wainwright was and how they wish they were one course, but come time for PAT Pl to do a (very slow) 5km run, out came the chits, the appointments and everything. They liked being paid to sleep an extra hour compared to those on course, little to no inspections, sleep all day, TV and all that. IMHO, they liked being civvies with benefits. The people who were legit either worked hard to be in shape for the next course so they wouldn't be booted for being unfit. Those who were really injured, they noted that it sucked being injured but they worked to get well.

There was a guy on our course who actually was happy to be on PAT and was hoping to expire his contract there because he made "a lot of money" there. Those in charge of PAT can't do anything big about the malingerers because they go to the doc and say "Oh...it hurts there, um...I mean there" It's up to the medics to find them because the PAT staff can't override a medical chit even if they think the person is fit.

On the bright side (though a little dated in news), PAT at Wainwright was taken over by a new warrant who started penalizing them for their laziness by removing electronics and allowing them only to come out on weekends and sending more tasking and that. It still is a little slack, but if someone in there wanted to get off of PAT, they'd do the extra to get out. I've seen many people do it, and many also fall through the cracks and disappear. As for being unprepared for courses as for staff, there is also the fact there is only so much training equipment available too because of a tight budget. Can't have 5 courses running if there are only so many weapons for 3 courses.

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SudsyNavy

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2005, 22:38:39 »
Hi,

Just a quick question....

I just got accepted for a Naval Weapons Tech position and am heading to St Jeans for BMQ in a few days.  If my Ql3 doesnt start directly afterwards i am aware i go to a PAT platoon, With that said do i go to a naval base or would i stay in St. Jean ?


Offline Meridian

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2005, 22:58:17 »
Usually you leave St Jean.. St Jean is reserved for people waiting for courses there.. as space is limited.. (at least thats how it was when I was there).

BTW...  a private/ordinary seamen trained has a hook, a recruit does not :)  Just FYI...

Good luck with your career!

Offline Tomas

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2005, 16:51:27 »
alright to set this pat issue straight..

ive been on pat in st jean, and ive been on pat at CFB Borden.
first of all. on pat you get treated with respect if you treat people with respect.. do what you are told when an everything is fine.. to be honest the ones that ruined our pat were the VR's becuase they just dont care..t hey wont be soliders so they stopped caring.. the others the ones that got hurt tried damned hard to start the straight and narrow so they could go on course again,. like me many were hurt..
and it sucked but it was what we had to do.

in borden its boring. thought they have instituded a new trainnig division that seems to give us somethings to do during the days.. kinda nice if you are fit you are in it.. and you get to do some nice things like rock climbing and the such.


i also found pat a good wayt o get to know the instructors, sure some treat you alittle less than a fit soldier. because you are slowed due to injury.. but 99.999% of all my instructors got along fine with me.. even had some good times while on late duties, and we could talk like humans.

so before you really rag on pat.. you should decide what kind of person you are.. and how you wiill be seen there.. a slacker who doesnt want to be there.. or someone whos working hard to get off pat


thats about it

lostlittle1

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2005, 20:32:45 »
How Long have you been in Bordom on PAT?

Offline Tomas

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2005, 08:21:18 »
ive been on pat in borden for about 2 months now currently on a pilot program for a new training division.

alboberino

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2005, 00:05:46 »
Hello, it looks like I am going to the Borden in the PAT platoon until my security clearance goes through.  I am getting back in the CF as a Cpl awaiting a remuster to 291 Comm Researcher.  My course is in Kingston in June if I get my security clearance in time.  Would anyone know what I can expect to be doing or staying?  Does anyone know anybody with a similar situation as myself?  Also, is there anywere that I can use the internet if I bring my own laptop on base ? i.e. free wireless.

Offline LoLieZ

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2005, 01:12:07 »
ok, I didn't want to start a new thread here, but my questions follow under this so I decided just to post here.


You sit in a PAT Platoon untill your injurys are fine and healed? Then are you allowed to get back on the course, or do you get dismissed and sent home and have to await another call to go to BMQ? Also what kind of injurys set you back? Aside from the obvious.... like broken bone... any minor injurys will set you back, like a pulled muscle or something?

As for SQ, so if you complete BMQ and there is a waiting period do you get sent home untill you're called in? do you get put on Leave without pay?

*edit* im also getting I have to sit on PAT Platoon for the 4 days before my training starts?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 01:28:08 by Tasker »

Offline Thirstyson

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2005, 08:21:45 »
Generally, you would wait on PAT plt until your injuries are healed. You would not resume your course, but start a new one. You would not be sent home during this time, unless you take some leave time.

Any injury or illness that would make you miss about 2 days in your course will result in being sent to PAT plt.

In reg force, you will never be put on leave without pay while awaiting a course, being put on PAT plt is common. The exception to this is right after being sworn in, you may get LWOP for a few days before your course starts, after that, you will never be forced to take LWOP.


Offline Meridian

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Re: All About PAT (merged)
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2005, 10:25:39 »
Usually recruits are recoursed onto whatever week they left (so if you are week 5, you usually pick up again week 5).

The only time this doesnt apply generally (at least that Ive seen) was where it was a PRB recourse that required them to start afresh.