Author Topic: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?  (Read 258156 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 13,115
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,401
Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« on: May 17, 2007, 12:39:51 »
Are they all operational yet?

If not, what are the hurdles and timelines for them reaching this status?


Matthew.  :salute:
IMPORTANT - 'Blackshirt' is a reference to Nebraska Cornhuskers Football and not naziism.   National Champions '70, '71, '94, '95 and '97.    Go Huskers!!!!

Offline FinClk

  • Scallywag
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 160
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 487
  • Ahoy, the chocalate chip kind.
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2007, 12:43:54 »
Chicoutimi is some years away, many reasons why but funding is a primary factor.

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 13,115
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,401
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2007, 13:06:58 »
Chicoutimi is some years away, many reasons why but funding is a primary factor.

What's your take on the ROI to bring the class up to operational status?  And approximately what kind of numbers are we talking about?  Another $100 million per vessel?


Matthew.   :salute:
IMPORTANT - 'Blackshirt' is a reference to Nebraska Cornhuskers Football and not naziism.   National Champions '70, '71, '94, '95 and '97.    Go Huskers!!!!

Offline NCS_Eng

  • Expect No Warning
  • New Member
  • **
  • 40
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 45
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2007, 13:32:12 »
Wish I could find the slides from the last technical brief on the sub programme.

Long story short is that Victoria is well (2 years?) into a EDWP and hopefully should be done late this year or early next. She will go on to weapons trials and be the first Sub to be weapons certified. From then on she is pretty much "operational"

Corner Brook is just going into an EDWP which should be far shorter than Victoria's due to a whole bunch of lessons learned that I won't get into here.

Windsor will be our only training platform for a while.

Chicoutimi's fire repairs will be done at the same time as her next scheduled refit and canadianization(a money saving gesture) so she will be out of the game for a long while.


Offline SeaDog

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 2,525
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 63
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2007, 09:39:55 »
Actually it's WSR that just finished her running period and is in the lift, and COR that is the at-sea platform at the moment having come down in the fall.  Other than that, pretty much on the money, NCS Eng.  It was heady days back in November/December, when we had WSR and COR both at sea:  First time two Canadian subs had exercised in awhile.

Offline Freddy G

  • Banned
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • -135
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 732
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2007, 10:19:29 »
From what I remember about the briefing at MOC weekend (an RMC thing), all four Vics should be up and running around 2012, and their activation will overlap for a few years. The plan seems to be to have at a minimum two operational at any one time, with a third up as much as possible. I don't remember the ship-by-ship activation dates, but there will be a "buildup" leading up to a peak in the 2012 range; Chicoutimi will be (as far as I can remember) the last to be operational.
My posts are my opinion alone and do not reflect any other person or group's opinion... because you can't handle the truth, and deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me to say these things.

Offline STONEY

  • Member
  • ****
  • 6,160
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 189
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2007, 19:38:13 »
Of Interest ; the Corner Brook has been on exercises in Northern European waters for the last several months including the difficult waters around Norway and taking part in a major NATO exercise playing for both the Blue & Red side at different times . She is not due back in Canada till July.

Offline IN HOC SIGNO

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • -180
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,382
  • Vocatio Ad Servitium
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2007, 20:58:28 »
shared iaw all the usual stuff

Sub quietly went on way

HMCS Corner Brook joined exercises off Norwegian coast

By CHRIS LAMBIE Staff Reporter


The navy’s lone working submarine quietly slipped overseas this spring to conduct exercises off the coast of Norway.

HMCS Corner Brook is now undergoing a scheduled maintenance period in Faslane, Scotland, after spending six weeks in one of the world’s most challenging marine environments.

"It was a massive step forward from where we were a year ago," Rear Admiral Dean McFadden, the commander of Joint Task Force Atlantic, told The Chronicle Herald’s editorial board Tuesday.

"What we have validated is an operationally viable, capable boat that can deploy to the opposite end of the Earth if it needed to. If you go and operate off the Norwegian Leads, you can go anywhere you want."

The sub took part in an exercise dubbed Noble Mariner with warships from 17 NATO countries.

The intent was to operate Corner Brook stealthily in shallow, coastal waters.

"Diesel-electric submarines become a real threat in that environment and a great many people have them," Rear Admiral McFadden said.

The sub was sent in ahead of the NATO fleet to do surreptitious coastal surveillance for the task force commander.

"So he would know what the ground would look like (and) what the water would look like before he got there," Rear Admiral McFadden said.

For a portion of the exercise, Corner Brook switched "to be not a good guy, but a bad guy," acting as an enemy sub trying to prevent NATO forces from getting close to shore.

"I’ve already received a message from the task force commander that commented that this is a very difficult boat to operate against," Rear Admiral McFadden said.

"In other words, it caused a great deal of problems for the NATO forces, trying to do what they wanted to do, knowing that a well-handled diesel-electric submarine was in the water ahead of them."

Further analysis will show whether the sub was actually able to sneak up on the warships undetected, he said.

"If I asked a submariner, ‘Yes they did.’ And if I asked the ships, ‘No, they didn’t.’ "

Before the exercise, the sub conducted training of its own "in very difficult waters" off Norway, Rear Admiral McFadden said.

"You’re operating very close to the shore in very congested waters. So there’s lots of craft around and very significant tidal conditions. You put all those things together and it’s tough to operate a boat sneakily, which is what you want the boat to do. In other words, it does not give its presence away. And so that’s a difficult exam area to work in."

Corner Brook’s skipper, Lt.-Cmdr. James Clarke, missed a milestone because of the trip — his baby’s birth.

"Mother and child did well," the rear admiral said. "I sent my congratulations to the commanding officer while at sea."

Corner Brook has been in Faslane for about 10 days. That’s the same spot the navy towed HMCS Chicoutimi after the Oct. 5, 2004, electrical fire off the coast of Ireland that killed Lt. Chris Saunders of Halifax.

Corner Brook will be undergoing maintenance for about another week and a half.

"When we finish the maintenance period in Faslane, based upon how I’m hearing it’s going, we will have validated the ability to maintain it, from an engineering logistics perspective, in a . . . foreign naval facility," Rear Admiral McFadden said.

"That was part of the plan of sending her in the first place. I always intended to put her into Faslane."

The sub is slated to return to Halifax in early July.

( clambie@herald.ca)


Offline SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 125,575
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,879
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2007, 10:22:37 »
gravyboat,

We are climbing out of a bit of a hole here.  Comparing our situation to Chile's is a bit like comparing Apples to Crowbars- they did not just go though a very painful and politically screwed up re-equipment program.

Offline cameron

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 1,130
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 384
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2007, 11:33:23 »
Just a question Freddy G, if they should all be up and running by 2012, how long is their service life expected to be?
"All men dream: but not equally.  Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible."

Seven Pillars of Wisdom, Lawrence of Arabia

Offline Ex-Dragoon

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 46,342
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,995
  • dealing with life not that active here anymore
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2007, 11:44:25 »
Well warships and subs are generally kept for 30 years (yeah I know there are exceptions especially in our navy) so you will probably see them in service until 2020-2025.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline Ex-Dragoon

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 46,342
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,995
  • dealing with life not that active here anymore
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2007, 11:47:09 »
Funny, that's nothing new for countries like Chile.

Chile also went for new built Type 209s and are getting Scorpenes.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline cameron

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 1,130
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 384
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2007, 12:04:27 »
Thanks Ex-Dragoon, BTW in a recent post I had suggested that Canada consider purchasing Scorpenes.
"All men dream: but not equally.  Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible."

Seven Pillars of Wisdom, Lawrence of Arabia

CrazyCanuck

  • Guest
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2007, 16:37:45 »
Here's a comparison on the specs between the Scorpene and our Victoria's for anybody who is interested

Scorpene
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/scorpene/specs.html

Victoria
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ssk_victoria/specs.html

Offline NavyGunnerRTD

  • Guest
  • *
  • 30
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2007, 17:00:44 »

Long story short is that Victoria is well (2 years?) into a EDWP and hopefully should be done late this year or early next.

Thats hilarious......and yes I am quite involved in the project. I will not provide timelines but end of this year or early next is VERY unlikely.

Offline NCS_Eng

  • Expect No Warning
  • New Member
  • **
  • 40
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 45
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2007, 14:04:59 »
Thats hilarious......and yes I am quite involved in the project. I will not provide timelines but end of this year or early next is VERY unlikely.

I'm not surprised. The information that was provided to me was from the class desk in Ottawa, so I'm sure there was a disconnect with reality somewhere.

Depending on how able you are to comment, whats your unofficial view of the work left to be done?

Offline NavyGunnerRTD

  • Guest
  • *
  • 30
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2007, 14:11:16 »
I'm not surprised. The information that was provided to me was from the class desk in Ottawa, so I'm sure there was a disconnect with reality somewhere.

Depending on how able you are to comment, whats your unofficial view of the work left to be done?


 ::) The class desk seems to live in a beautiful little world where rum flows like water and cigars grow on trees  ::)

 ;D ;D

The reality is that there is a LOT left to accomplish before these boats go back to sea. I do not work the production side so cannot comment on workload but when it comes to procurement etc. There is still a huge lead-time to replace bad stock. A team is preparing to go to the UK to look at buying some residual assets for the current and future EDWP's.

Offline prom

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,097
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 83
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2007, 22:24:21 »
so all told how many billions will have been pumped into them by the time they are all operational?

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 187,365
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,422
  • Freespeecher
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2007, 14:51:56 »
Here's a comparison on the specs between the Scorpene and our Victoria's for anybody who is interested

Scorpene
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/scorpene/specs.html

Victoria
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ssk_victoria/specs.html

From what I understand the reason for getting the Upholders was their range is greater than most other diesel electric boats (8000nm vs 6400 for the Scorpene), which is quite critical given our long coast lines and the great distances needed to go when deploying "overseas". Since the Upholder is essentially a nuclear sub without the reactor, this made a great deal of sense in theory, and if the boats had been purchased and brought into service in a timely manner, I don't think we would be having this conversation.

Letting them sit in dry dock for such an extended time while waffling over the deal is what caused the initial problems, not any intrinsic flaws in the design.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline geo

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 26,075
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,643
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2007, 15:18:24 »
If they were in drydock it wouldn't have been so much a problem
I believe one of the subs (Chicoutimi ?) had it's ballast tanks filled with seawater...
Chimo!

Offline IN HOC SIGNO

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • -180
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,382
  • Vocatio Ad Servitium
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2007, 15:31:56 »
If they were in drydock it wouldn't have been so much a problem
I believe one of the subs (Chicoutimi ?) had it's ballast tanks filled with seawater...

They were in the water. From the folks that know what they are talking about down in the Sub Sqn I am told that this is a great boat. we're having to spend more in bringing them up to snuff than originally thought but they have a great capability. In a recent ex one of them got very close to the HVU (a carrier) undetected....

Offline IN ARDUA NITOR

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 138
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2007, 13:14:53 »
They were in the water. From the folks that know what they are talking about down in the Sub Sqn I am told that this is a great boat. we're having to spend more in bringing them up to snuff than originally thought but they have a great capability. In a recent ex one of them got very close to the HVU (a carrier) undetected....

IHS, I can't help but whole heartedly agree. Yes, it's a huge pain in the a$$. Yes, it's taking a long time. Yes, it's costing us a ton of cash. In the end, we will have (arguably) the most capable diesel submarine in the world... all that and we'll be firing MK48's! I think the capability (both of the sub itself and the outrageous benefits to training our own fleet in ASW) are priceless.

Offline IN HOC SIGNO

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • -180
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,382
  • Vocatio Ad Servitium
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2007, 13:38:54 »
IHS, I can't help but whole heartedly agree. Yes, it's a huge pain in the a$$. Yes, it's taking a long time. Yes, it's costing us a ton of cash. In the end, we will have (arguably) the most capable diesel submarine in the world... all that and we'll be firing MK48's! I think the capability (both of the sub itself and the outrageous benefits to training our own fleet in ASW) are priceless.

Are you going to volunteer for subs?? I see you are at Venture now.

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 114,225
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,419
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2007, 13:51:35 »
Here's a comparison on the specs between the Scorpene and our Victoria's for anybody who is interested

Scorpene
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/scorpene/specs.html

Victoria
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ssk_victoria/specs.html

Hard to tell, but the Victoria seems to offer a slight increase in range, patrol endurance, the 214's also seem to be close in spec's. In a perfect world we could have tagged onto the their assembly line and gotten some very modern subs, however that would have never happened due to the politic's of the time. The Victoria's were likley the best they could get all things considered. When people talk about why we bought 2nd hand subs, I respond that we always have done so. Hell even BC bought 2nd hand subs from Chile!

Offline IN ARDUA NITOR

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 138
Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2007, 14:30:48 »
Are you going to volunteer for subs?? I see you are at Venture now.

It's not out of the question. I'm still a SHAD though, and would like to spend some more time on the KINGSTON class before going over to the dark side. :)